Advanced Marksmanship Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

#101
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

I was being facetious. Of course I know what it means. I just don't care. I am not "interested" is probably what I should have said.

I still want you to address whether you should ignore the fundamentals if the shot goes where you "called" it? Because it seems to me that your position is "damn the fundamentals" as long as your round goes where you want it or where you "called" it.
 
#102
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was being facetious. Of course I know what it means. I just don't care. I am not "interested" is probably what I should have said.

I still want you to address whether you should ignore the fundamentals if the shot goes where you "called" it? Because it seems to me that your position is "damn the fundamentals" as long as your round goes where you want it or where you "called" it.</div></div>

Calling the shot is made possible with follow through, so, obviously, if you ignore the fundementals you can't call the shot. When you can call your shots you've got an express ticket to meaningful shooter/target analysis. It's also only by perfecting the fundementals through meaningful shooter/target analysis that a shooter may reach the highest plateaus of good shooting. I didn't reach my plateau of shooting by ignoring anything important to good shooting. Consistency is key, it's synonymous with accuracy in any manner measured.

I'm sorry you're not interested in shot calls, it's great feedback. For example, if the strike is not right-in-there from a call right-in-there, you've got a problem with something, an error, and it's likely to be a sight adjustment issue. On the other hand, call the shot at 9 o'clock for example, with strike at 9 o'clock and you probably do not have a problem with sight adjustment but should be looking at whether the NPA was adjusted or perhaps the trigger pull was smooth.

 
#103
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Here is the video, every shot hits the orange dot which is a 1/4" in size so you can see that. When doing things wrong the shot moves as much as a minute and half from center. But I think the video speaks for itself, as well I added a bit of a bonus at the end after the initial credits

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Sniper&apos;s Hide, Rifles Only, Training, Sniper, Precision rifle, Tactical, Law Enforcement, Military </p>Veeple Interactive Video</noembed></embed></object>
 
#104
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Yes, I can see clearly now. There is a difference as you said in what you do and what I do. For starters, your interpretation of a zero is more liberal than mine. I use the definition which states that zero means no measurable displacement of bullet strike and point of aim. Since I do not shoot good enough to put bullets right-in-there, triangulation is used to determine zero from a group of shots. Second, in what I do there is always contact at the hand-guard with the non-firing hand. When a position goes from prone to anything else the contact point of hand-guard and non-firing hand is dissimilar. Your demonstration reveals that with artificial support of the hand-guard/stock fore-end that the rest of your body may remain in more similar contact with the rifle from position to position. I had hoped that you would have shot in sitting position and even standing without artificial support other than perhaps a sling so that your non firing hand would be forced to support the rifle at the fore-end as in what I do. With such dissimilar positions, I'm talking about contact, not dissimilar factoring, I think you'd experience a result like that which I get. I also believe that with the resolution of an optic as well as the accommodation of artifcial support I would see in my own shooting less divergence in point of aim and point of impact with change from one position to another, perhaps, causing me to believe, with such a small amount of displacement, that for practical purposes, I was maintaining a zero.
 
#106
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

I have video of us shooting sling supported positions, the thing is we don't shoot Standing with a sling it is not a practical position, instead the standing is engaged like a carbine with a rapid up and down movement.

Understand with our rifles, the sling puts no pressure on the rifles, we don't have "handguards' to flex with the sling and your hand pressure. We can put our hands anywhere on the rifle and it makes no different. The stock is free floated from the barrel.

As I said earlier, we do demonstrate sling supported in the sitting and kneeling and I assure you the results are exactly the same as you see here.

Here is an example
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Slung, unslung, supported, it is all the same...
 
#109
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

I've been watching this thread for quite sometime now and learned a good deal from it. I must say that I wish I didn't live so far away from rifles only. I would love to take a class. The online training is very helpful in the meantime, thanks for that Jacob, Lisa, and Frank.
 
#110
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

jburt,
Don't count yourself out! We are currently looking for property to open up another RO. It is too hot down here in the summertime to train. That is why we do not schedule civilian classes in the summer months. We have been looking for over a year and a half now, hopefully the right place will come along soon.
 
#111
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

LL,

Very nicely done video(s). I see what you mean by the way you guys shoot compared to the way I shoot. I will reiterate that I have seen a slight change in POA vs. POI between positions, with a full field of view in the scope and parallax corrected, etc. - but it is a fairly small difference at that, and may be just a factor of different shooting styles. I'm not convinced either way is 'wrong' for its intended purpose. Thanks again for taking the time to setup and shoot those videos.

Monte
 
#112
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

I recommend CO as the place to run RO in the summer. Would love to have you all here
smile.gif
 
#116
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Slightly off topic here - That video is the first time I've seen someone use that little head nodding action to check paralax. I understand the idea behind it, but it seems no matter how I adjust my scope the reticle always moves when I move my eye. Can we get a little more information on checking/adjusting paralax? If it's something that belongs in the online training, fine, it's your call and I'll see it there.

I can never tell if I'm moving the rifle slightly when moving my head or I just don't have the scope adjusted properly. I'm using the Vortex Razor, if that makes a difference.

I will say this about that scope - ANY movement of my eye causes shadowing. I have to get my eye aligned just perfect every time to get the shadowing to go away, at least on 20x. Not so bad dialed down to 15x or lower.

Thanks.
 
#117
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

I shot on the batallion rifle team in the Corps and for me the 300 sitting and kneeling had a 2 click delta. This was with the M14 and M16. This is according to my marksmanship books. Open sights so no parallax to consider. Seemed to be the norm from what I remember. Of course remembering that far back is dangerous in its own right.
 
#119
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Sled,
Do you think it could be your eye relief is at the limit, either too far or close. On the plus side you need to be dead centered or you will know right away you are out.
How are you adjusting your parallax?
 
#120
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

All,

By definition a zero means no measurable displacement in point of aim and point of impact-zero! Since, no one here can shoot consistently enough that all bullets are certain to impact in the same place, triangulation of a group of shots is used find its center, thereby, allowing for recognition of the exact sight adjustment required to be zeroed. Without such excercise the shooter will likely not have the best understanding for where the rifle is pointed; and, may not be able to discern whether any change in the body's physical relationship with gun and ground has had an effect on bullet placement. It's easy for me to understand how some say they do not see what I see, they're not looking for the sort of things I'm looking for. As they also say, what they do is different than what I do. I believe that.
 
#121
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Request Dust Off</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sled,
Do you think it could be your eye relief is at the limit, either too far or close. On the plus side you need to be dead centered or you will know right away you are out.
How are you adjusting your parallax?</div></div>

I've got the eye relief just about perfect for prone. I spent a lot of time getting that refined. If I dial down to 15x, I have a lot of room to move front/back without getting the "donought" ring in the view. It's only touchy on 20x. And as practice, I leave it there to force myself to be centered behind it every time. Any error shows up instantly.

Right now, I adjust parallax by getting the target in sharp focus. And then hope it's close enough.

Maybe I need to put the gun in a vise so it can't move, look at a target at 100 yards, and see what happens when moving my eye behind it while adjusting parallax and knowing the rifle is not moving?
 
#122
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

The reason I sometimes notice a zero change half-way through a three day rifle course is because I have shooter error built-in to it. When my technique changes, or I cure a bad habit, the zero I have on the rifle moves a bit. My goal is to eliminate the errors that I have unconsciously built-in to the equipment instead of chasing new ones using sight adjustments. But, and of course, you <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> dial to compesnsate for a trigger slap, but I wouldn't call that a 'rifle zero'.
 
#123
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Sled,

The easiest way is setting the gun up on a bipod with a rear bag supporting it so you can look through the scope with the crosshairs lined on the target - without touching the gun. If you have an adjustable cheekpiece, lower/remove it. Do the head-bob thingy while adjusting the parallax without touching the gun with your head or shoulder until the reticle doesn't appreciably move, and then put the cheekpiece back.

It is considerably more difficult (at least for me) to do it from position with the gun in the shoulder... I can do it, but it is more difficult to isolate the movement of the crosshairs due to parallax from that induced by the 20lb bowling ball bobbing up and down
wink.gif
Obviously RO didn't have a problem with it in the video <shrug>.

Monte
 
#124
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beamer Girl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are currently looking for property to open up another RO. It is too hot down here in the summertime to train. That is why we do not schedule civilian classes in the summer months. We have been looking for over a year and a half now, hopefully the right place will come along soon. </div></div>

...I'm sure you would be much happier in Oregon
grin.gif
 
#125
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Monte,

I'll try it isolated from the gun. I keep forgetting that sand bags will be stable enough for things like this.

How much should I be moving my eye behind the scope? And how much is "reticle doesn't appreciably move"? For example, if I'm on a 1 inch dot at 100 yards, should I be able to keep the reticle on that when moving my head? I'm not sure what I'm looking for, so I don't want to miss it if I do come across it.

Thanks.
 
#127
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much should I be moving my eye behind the scope?</div></div>

Up & down maybe 1/4 - 1/2"? Start out moving a bit more and as you get things dialed in, progress to less movement.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And how much is "reticle doesn't appreciably move"? For example, if I'm on a 1 inch dot at 100 yards, should I be able to keep the reticle on that when moving my head?</div></div>

At 100yds, with a NF BR 12-42x mounted on my F/TR rifle looking at say a Redfield sight-in target I should be able to dial it in to where the center of the reticle (a 2DD 'dot' in my case) lined up on the intersection of two grid lines literally doesn't appear to move at all. Depending on how thick your crosshairs are relative to your 1" dot... I'd say set it up so you bracket it and adjust to where you see no movement.

It's kind of tedious and time-consuming... you can short-track the process a bit by putting some witness marks on your parallax/side-focus turret with a mechanical pencil for common ranges i.e. '1', '3', etc.
 
#128
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

I'm guessing that I've been moving too much before. I'll try it closer to 1/2 inch and see how that works. I'm going to guess that moving less makes it more reasonable to do while shouldering the gun, but that is probably a future step for me. Way future.

My scope has yardage marks on the parallax knob. I suppose once I verify the setting for different ranges I could use that to get really close and fine tune from there.

Last question - my scope is 5-20x. Set parallax at high or low magnification? My gut feel is that the higher mag would show the error more. But maybe for starting out that's bad, and I should save the high mag for once I have this working for me?

Thanks.
 
#129
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone?

Going back to the initial question, something changed. Different outcomes indicate different conditons, period. What changed was the position itself.

The rifle and ammunition, shooter and environment all act together as a seamless whole. Alter one and you alter the outcome, and altered outcomes insist that one of them was indeed altered.

As the bullet transits the bore, the rifle recoils, this moves the shooter, and between them this results in a dynamic release point with the bore axis deviating its direction relative to its starting point where the POA was in alignment with the sights.

In truth, the bullet always goes where the bore is pointed, and in practice, it's seldom truly aligned the same as it was when the sights were aligned prior to the sear release. How consistent that resutant bore alignement at bullet release is, depends on how consistent the body manages the recoil, time after time.

Without getting into numbers and sequences, let's simply consider that the amount of sight correction most rifles need to shift zero from 100yd to 1000yd actually corresponds to only about 1/2 of a degree.

Contrasting this against the potential for variations of muscle relaxation and bias during recoil, and it becomes rather easier to contemplate what a total shift in body orientation can result in a POI deviation of roughtly 1/60 of a degree. 1MOA = 1/60 of a degree. Honest.

Actually, it demonstrates that precise marksmanship is about maintaining consistencies right down to some very small factors. IMHO it's amazing we can actually do as well as we do.

Greg
 
#130
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

sled,

Coaching Soldiers, I've seen evidence of ACOG's with something close to a foot and half of parallax error at 600 meters, measured total left to right head movement. Now that's some error, which must be minimized. It's why the consistent stock-weld is essential, since there is no parallax adjustment on the optic itself. Pretty much all that's important is recognition that without consistent stock-weld, the reticle/target relationship may not be describing where the barrel is pointed.

With your parallax adjustable optic, the parallax can be minimized, as memilamuk suggested, where perfection of stock-weld is not quite as critical for good results as it would be using ACOG or irons.

What I'm getting at here is that you do not have the problem here that you think you've got. You definitely have a problem though, in the arena of shooter/target analysis. Remember, the only thing you know for sure is bullet strikes indicate where the barrel was pointed. There could be a multitude of problems which preclude the results you're seeking, the least of these, with your sort of scope, is parallax.

Look at the big picture. Get a data/score book and record your calls and strikes. This will allow proper analysis to better reveal, through shot call/strike corollary, the source/s of any error/s you're making, i.e. trigger control, NPA, sight alignment, perspective of aim, etc. After awhile you'll know where the bullet struck before your spotter knows, as well as why it struck where it did without so much as a heartbeat passing.
 
#131
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Sled, shooting alongside you yesterday, I was employing a 24X with a mildot reticle, a simple rest and a sandbag. At 200yd, I was able to mainting a reticle intersection within the 1" V ring of our FV200 targets at 200yd.

When the wind wasn't especially diverting, I was able to maintain POI inside the 2" 5 ring.

For me this is perticularly unusually good marksmanship. For the first time in a long time, my rifle was shooting in accord with most of the others on the line. I attribute the improvement mostly to better trigger work.

The rifle is new to me, a Deuce shooting 50gr Nosler Ballistic Tips at a sedate 2900-3000fps(that's my estimate), and I still have plenty to learn about how it responds to wind dispersion. But for now, I can say it's significant, and that for the few times when I tried a holdoff, it worked. The wind yesterday was onough, it seems to me, to have plagued everyone up and down the line, from my Deuce, to that .338LM over at the other end.

Looking at your targets, I think you did particularly well.

Greg
 
#132
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Going back to the initial question, something changed. Different outcomes indicate different conditons, period. What changed was the position itself.

The rifle and ammunition, shooter and environment all act together as a seamless whole. Alter one and you alter the outcome, and altered outcomes insist that one of them was indeed altered.

As the bullet transits the bore, the rifle recoils, this moves the shooter, and between them this results in a dynamic release point with the bore axis deviating its direction relative to its starting point where the POA was in alignment with the sights.

In truth, the bullet always goes where the bore is pointed, and in practice, it's seldom truly aligned the same as it was when the sights were aligned prior to the sear release. How consistent that resutant bore alignement at bullet release is, depends on how consistent the body manages the recoil, time after time.

Without getting into numbers and sequences, let's simply consider that the amount of sight correction most rifles need to shift zero from 100yd to 1000yd actually corresponds to only about 1/2 of a degree.

Contrasting this against the potential for variations of muscle relaxation and bias during recoil, and it becomes rather easier to contemplate what a total shift in body orientation can result in a POI deviation of roughtly 1/60 of a degree. 1MOA = 1/60 of a degree. Honest.

Actually, it demonstrates that precise marksmanship is about maintaining consistencies right down to some very small factors. IMHO it's amazing we can actually do as well as we do.

Greg</div></div>

I'm glad Greg has come into the discussion. Greg clarifies what's happening, if you want to put em all right-in-there, you've got to be consistent in relationship to the gun and ground from initial building of the position until recoil subsides. Most folks just do not get what perfection is demanded. If they did they would all be HM shooters.

Here' what is so funny, folks will perfect their equipment and ammunition and yet not contemplate that perhaps their relationship with all that stuff could be important too.

Considering that a zeroed rifle is one where the sight has been adjusted so bullets go where aimed, meaning ZERO displacement of POI and POA, I find it also funny how folks are so sure of a zero not changing with their position change without testing for it through group triangulation. After all, it's only through triangulation that the actual zero can be determined, since no one here, not even David Tubb, can indeed shoot all bullets without some shot displacement. For those who still don't get it, listen, the zero can only be surmised by identification of a group's center, adjusting the sight as required to eliminate the displacement of the group's center to the point of aim.
 
#133
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Not to mention all those guys at AMU who've been taught the above and done well enough for all those years...
AMU, Tubb, Maxberry, Thompkins, Whidden, Robbie Johnson, Jason St. John, etc... Works for them.
 
#134
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

In the end, the sights are about a guestimate; and the guestimate is only as accurate as the sum of the parts.

We say, "I have to adjust the sight so, to get the bullet to impact so".

Like as not, this does <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> point the bore so it will impact that intended POI at the time the sear drops. Rather, it anticipates where it has to point prior to the displacement that follow the sear drop, so the bore ends up pointed correctly at the time the bore transit is completed.

Now it's only gonna get to that right place <span style="font-style: italic">if</span> all the other reactions and responses go consistently up to the point where bullet release occurs.

This is why LL, Charles, and others are all correct here.

Sometimes our explanations tend to resemble the comments of the three blind men describing the elephant; one with tail in hand, one with trunk in hand, and maybe we just don't want to say precisely what the third guy is handling, and maybe it might pay for all to arrive on-scene wearing their running shoes.

Greg
 
#136
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

Sled,
Do what Memilunuk said at home and/or on the range, so you can prove to your self what parallax looks like and how to get rid of it. Make the scope give you parallax and then dial it out. Do it at all your power settings so you will know what your working with. Dont be afraid of it just recognize what it is and dial it out

Parallax is usually less pronounced at lower powers and very pronounced at higher ones, but you need to use that focus knob every time you change range, and get into the habit of doing it regardless of the power the scope is set on. If you are ever in doubt just move your head/eye around and see if parallax is there or not (just like the video).

In terms of scope position, when I set eye relief I close my eyes throw the rife up to my shoulder (off hand) and then open eyes to see that I have a full edge to edge picture and adjust accordingly. Most of my rifles have stocks like yours but without the adjustment. Frankly they suck for comfort from prone, and many times I end up with a "lip" weld rather than a cheek weld, but as long as I have adjusted for parallax and position my eye for a full edge to edge I can hit just fine. The point here is be careful about setting the scopes eye relief for prone at the expense of other positions unless you do the majority or your shooting prone. Dry fire from a variety of positions and find what works best in terms of scope position and power settings. You can and should do a lot this setup and testing without ever live firing, and then go to range do it for real.
 
#137
Re: Can zero change 1moa going from bench to prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deisel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recommend CO as the place to run RO in the summer. Would love to have you all here
smile.gif
</div></div> +1 I'm in for that.
 
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