Cannot Bump Shoulder in FL Resizing Die

[Stangs55]

Why?

I'm using Redding FL resizing dies from the National Match Die Set. I've got every tool under he sun to measure headspacing, including the Hornady tool and even the Larry Willis digital tool. Measuring unfired Lapua brass from the same batch, I get once fired .223 and .308 brass that measures about 0.003 - 0.007 longer at the shoulder.

Following my Redding instructions, I screw the FL die all the way down to the shellplate on my Big Boss II. However when I FL resize, my shoulder does not bump at all. I'd like to bump it back some...but I cannot get that to happen. What should I do here? I was thinking maybe I needed a thinner shellplate (currently using standard Redding shellplates), but I have no way of knowing if someone else makes one that's thinner. Then I was thinking about getting the competition shellplates, but they only seem to be thicker than the baseline shellplate...not thinner.

Am I doing something wrong here? How can I bump my shoulder back 0.002?

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

I'm confused.

Are you trying to get the datum length back to new, unfired Lapua length?

Generally, I've found unfired Lapua to be GO minus ~.005" or so.

You should be comparing fired brass (primer removed) to the sized brass.

If that's what you're doing, but can't get the datum .002" under fired length, you need to sand a few thousandths off the top surface of your shell holder.

A mirror or other piece of glass with a sheet of 3M wetordry sandpaper will do it in short order.

 

[Stangs55]

I'm confused.

Are you trying to get the datum length back to new, unfired Lapua length?

Generally, I've found unfired Lapua to be GO minus ~.005" or so.

You should be comparing fired brass (primer removed) to the sized brass.

If that's what you're doing, but can't get the datum .002" under fired length, you need to sand a few thousandths off the top surface of your shell holder.

A mirror or other piece of glass with a sheet of 3M wetordry sandpaper will do it in short order.

Sorry, guess I should've been more clear.

I am resizing off of fired brass.

So I just need to sand my shellholder with standard sandpaper....that'll do it?

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

So I just need to sand my shellholder with standard sandpaper....that'll do it?

Yep. Alternatively, you can sand the bottom of the die if it pleases you.

Before modifying anything though, be sure you're "camming over" the press - but are still not able to get your desired size. The difference between die kissing the shell holder, and die cammed against the shell holder is usually at least .005".

 

[Garyc]

Before you go sanding the shellholder I'd try shellholders from other makers. They're SUPPOSED to be the same, but frequently they aren't and a RCBS, Lee, or Hornady shell holder might be a tad shorter and give you the extra bump.

However, since it's happening with both your .223 and .308 dies I'd guess it's a problem in the way you've got things set up. It's pretty rare to have that problem and you've got it with two rifle/die combinations. Since it's with both of them I'm betting you're not camming the press over as HodgdonE says.

 

[agbm]

Use Competition shell holder set makes it easy
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...8-hand-loading-precision-rifle-pic-heavy.html
Competition Shellholder Sets | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment

 

[zenbiker]

Let me toss in a silly suggestion: if it has never been done, have the headspace checked on the gun. I have seen a lot of factory guns, not to mention a few guns by well known gunsmiths, with chambers drilled too deep. Now, having said that, if you can accommodate the chambering with interchangeable shell holders as suggested, and dedicate that die and shell holder in the same press to get the desired results, all should be well. Of course, the brass should be dedicated to that gun only. The only problem that would arise is if you can't bump the shoulder back, even with the thinnest shell holder, which would suggest your rifle may need a chamber set back, or worst case, rebarrelled. Good luck.

PS - I reread your original post. If you are trying to bump back the shoulder of unfired brass, you may not be able to. Fire it first with a normal load, then try to resize.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[360moa]

Was the brass you are trying to resize fired in the same chamber?

 

[Stangs55]

...
Before modifying anything though, be sure you're "camming over" the press - but are still not able to get your desired size. The difference between die kissing the shell holder, and die cammed against the shell holder is usually at least .005".

Before you go sanding the shellholder I'd try shellholders from other makers. They're SUPPOSED to be the same, but frequently they aren't and a RCBS, Lee, or Hornady shell holder might be a tad shorter and give you the extra bump.

However, since it's happening with both your .223 and .308 dies I'd guess it's a problem in the way you've got things set up. It's pretty rare to have that problem and you've got it with two rifle/die combinations. Since it's with both of them I'm betting you're not camming the press over as HodgdonE says.

So I've always had a problem with camming over. It's honestly just crap to me...

In the world of precision reloading, why are we supposed to rely on the method of "push super hard bro" as an acceptable method of changing a measurement? I mean if we're talking about setting back a shoulder 0.001 versus 0.002, 0.003, or 0.004...it's never made sense to me that pushing a handle extra hard is acceptable. The entire world of reloading is (in my mind at least) founded on precision...so why is there no precision here? If I push "super-duper" hard one time versus "super" hard another, I can get a difference of 0.002...but are those differences repeatable every time? Of course not. There should be a simple solution to bring the plate to the die and achieve an accurate, repeatable resize.

/soap_box

Was the brass you are trying to resize fired in the same chamber?

Yup.

Use Competition shell holder set makes it easy
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...8-hand-loading-precision-rifle-pic-heavy.html
Competition Shellholder Sets | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment

So THIS is what I thought the simple solution would be....until I read that each successive shellholder is incrementally THICKER than the baseline shellholder, which is the standard Redding Shellholder....which is what I'm using! ;(

I don't need it to get thicker...I need it to get thinner...

(With that said, I'm still thinking about picking up a set just to try it...)

 

[ChrisGarrett]

If you can't get fired cases to size with your Redding FL sizing die, either your chamber is way undersized, or your sizing die is defective.

I'll assume that the press isn't the problem.

You need to start ruling things out, one at a time.

Chris

 

[mdmp5]

So I've always had a problem with camming over. It's honestly just crap to me...

In the world of precision reloading, why are we supposed to rely on the method of "push super hard bro" as an acceptable method of changing a measurement? I mean if we're talking about setting back a shoulder 0.001 versus 0.002, 0.003, or 0.004...it's never made sense to me that pushing a handle extra hard is acceptable. The entire world of reloading is (in my mind at least) founded on precision...so why is there no precision here? If I push "super-duper" hard one time versus "super" hard another, I can get a difference of 0.002...but are those differences repeatable every time? Of course not. There should be a simple solution to bring the plate to the die and achieve an accurate, repeatable resize.

/soap_box



Yup.



So THIS is what I thought the simple solution would be....until I read that each successive shellholder is incrementally THICKER than the baseline shellholder, which is the standard Redding Shellholder....which is what I'm using! ;(

I don't need it to get thicker...I need it to get thinner...

(With that said, I'm still thinking about picking up a set just to try it...)

The redding comp shellholders size the brass progressively less, so they won't do you any good. As far as cam over goes, you don't need to set it so hard that you need to lean on the handle. Just enough that it makes good contact with the die, and then breaks as a second stage. I think your die may be too long. Try removing a couple of thousandths from the bottom of the die with either a stone or a lathe.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Camming over actually ADDS precision to your sizing operation. It removes any slack in the linkage and die threads. This is one of the ways to get the most consistent sizing (along with proper consistent lube and smooth consistent press stroke).

As mentioned, it doesn't need to be a ridiculous amount of force, it just needs to be enough so you know the die and shellholder are butted up against eachother as much as they can be.

 

[dave300]

+1, it is especially true with my Redding T7 in order to make certain the turret bottoms out the spring/ball bearing under the turret that indexes the different dies and their station. It is designed to cam over to obtain the same result.

Camming over actually ADDS precision to your sizing operation. It removes any slack in the linkage and die threads. This is one of the ways to get the most consistent sizing (along with proper consistent lube and smooth consistent press stroke).

As mentioned, it doesn't need to be a ridiculous amount of force, it just needs to be enough so you know the die and shellholder are butted up against eachother as much as they can be.

 

[Stangs55]

The redding comp shellholders size the brass progressively less, so they won't do you any good. As far as cam over goes, you don't need to set it so hard that you need to lean on the handle. Just enough that it makes good contact with the die, and then breaks as a second stage. I think your die may be too long. Try removing a couple of thousandths from the bottom of the die with either a stone or a lathe.

Taking a lathe to an expensive die to make it perform right doesn't seem...right....

Camming over actually ADDS precision to your sizing operation. It removes any slack in the linkage and die threads. This is one of the ways to get the most consistent sizing (along with proper consistent lube and smooth consistent press stroke).

As mentioned, it doesn't need to be a ridiculous amount of force, it just needs to be enough so you know the die and shellholder are butted up against eachother as much as they can be.

So I just did some experimenting since I've never fully grasped camming over...

I took four difference once fired lapua 223 brass each selected because their relative headspace measure identical to each other (0.000 variance). I set the FL die as per Redding's instruction of raising the plate to the top, screwing down the die until it touches, then locking it down.

Brass #1: Resized as I would expect to resize...raise the arm until it stops by hitting the die.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #2: Left the die where it was and applied force to cam over.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #3: Screwed the die in 1/8ish of a turn (even though Redding manual says it's a no-no). Raised the arm with normal force.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #4: Left the die 1/8ish in and attempted to cam over.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass $5: Left the die 1/8ish in and applied He-man force...ie putting locking my elbow and pushing down hard...so hard that I would need to rest after a couple dozen resizes
Result: 0.004 shoulder bump

So...if you're telling me that I need to cam over...it's not looking like that's really possible with my setup unless I buy a new reloading bench every few months when the old one breaks....and new dies... I'm assuming Big Boss II's actually support caming over...right?

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Taking a lathe to an expensive die to make it perform right doesn't seem...right....



So I just did some experimenting since I've never fully grasped camming over...

I took four difference once fired lapua 223 brass each selected because their relative headspace measure identical to each other (0.000 variance). I set the FL die as per Redding's instruction of raising the plate to the top, screwing down the die until it touches, then locking it down.

Brass #1: Resized as I would expect to resize...raise the arm until it stops by hitting the die.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #2: Left the die where it was and applied force to cam over.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #3: Screwed the die in 1/8ish of a turn (even though Redding manual says it's a no-no). Raised the arm with normal force.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #4: Left the die 1/8ish in and attempted to cam over.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass $5: Left the die 1/8ish in and applied He-man force...ie putting locking my elbow and pushing down hard...so hard that I would need to rest after a couple dozen resizes
Result: 0.004 shoulder bump

So...if you're telling me that I need to cam over...it's not looking like that's really possible with my setup unless I buy a new reloading bench every few months when the old one breaks....and new dies... I'm assuming Big Boss II's actually support caming over...right?

You shouldn't have to force it like that.

The good news is you know you're damn close to achieving the needed shoulder bump. Sand .003"-.004" off the shelllholder and you should be good to go.

 

[mdmp5]

Taking a lathe to an expensive die to make it perform right doesn't seem...right....

All you would be doing is taking off a couple of thousandths or so. It isn't a big deal at all. I know guys that have done it, and have put a die in a lathe myself.

 

[mdmp5]

So I just did some experimenting since I've never fully grasped camming over...

I took four difference once fired lapua 223 brass each selected because their relative headspace measure identical to each other (0.000 variance). I set the FL die as per Redding's instruction of raising the plate to the top, screwing down the die until it touches, then locking it down.

Brass #1: Resized as I would expect to resize...raise the arm until it stops by hitting the die.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #2: Left the die where it was and applied force to cam over.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #3: Screwed the die in 1/8ish of a turn (even though Redding manual says it's a no-no). Raised the arm with normal force.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass #4: Left the die 1/8ish in and attempted to cam over.
Result: 0.000 shoulder bump

Brass $5: Left the die 1/8ish in and applied He-man force...ie putting locking my elbow and pushing down hard...so hard that I would need to rest after a couple dozen resizes
Result: 0.004 shoulder bump

So...if you're telling me that I need to cam over...it's not looking like that's really possible with my setup unless I buy a new reloading bench every few months when the old one breaks....and new dies... I'm assuming Big Boss II's actually support caming over...right?

You are not understanding what cam over means. In you number 1 and 2 examples, you are doing the same thing. Simply pushing the handle down with force does nothing. Cam over is when the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die, impeding the full motion of the handle. A small amount of force will allow the handle to fully drop, making a breaking, locking movement down. There is no need to muscle it. Ideally, the die will be screwed in slightly more than bottoming out on the shell holder. It may be 1/16 of a turn or an eighth of a turn.

 

[zenbiker]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[No1]

I would suggest you tell us what your shoulder measurement is with which Hornady bushing, i.e. 1.466" with #330 for the .223. What is this for the fired and unfired brass?
Ruling out what may and may not be the problem.

 

[Stangs55]

I would suggest you tell us what your shoulder measurement is with which Hornady bushing, i.e. 1.466" with #330 for the .223. What is this for the fired and unfired brass?
Ruling out what may and may not be the problem.

Hornady A 330

Unfired Lapua: 1.451

Once fired Lapua (same batch): 1.455

 

[elfster1234]

This is correct.... You need to over cam the press by the smallest amount... And you dont use a fast and strong pull of the handle.... Slow and the second you over cam you let off.... At least that is the way i do it with my lnl press. = consistent bump

Camming over actually ADDS precision to your sizing operation. It removes any slack in the linkage and die threads. This is one of the ways to get the most consistent sizing (along with proper consistent lube and smooth consistent press stroke).

As mentioned, it doesn't need to be a ridiculous amount of force, it just needs to be enough so you know the die and shellholder are butted up against eachother as much as they can be.

 

[bigedp51]

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and no two resizing dies are the same, each of the .223/5.56 dies below will bump the shoulder back diffrent amounts with my 1973 RCBS Rockchucker press reaching cam over. And nothing on this press has broken in 41 years of hard use.

You want the shell holder to make hard contact with the die and "NO" daylight between the die and shell holder. This prevents variations in cartridge case headspace length because the die reaches a mechanical stop and the shoulder area of the die remains in a fixed position. BUT the brass is elastic and it can spring back partially after sizing, so if you pause for a few seconds at the top of the ram stroke you are letting the brass who is the boss and the stay put after sizing.

When your resized case is too long after sizing and hard to chamber you could have one of the problems below.

1. Your rifles headspace is set too tight.
2. Your resizing die is a +plus size and isn't pushing the shoulder back far enough.
3. The cheapest and simplest thing to do is lap the shell holder on some fine wet and dry sand paper laying on a thick piece of glass cut to the size of the sand paper. Wet the back of the sand paper so it sticks to the glass and put some oil on the top of the sand paper so the shell holder will "float" on the surface of the paper while lapping.
4. If they make taller shell holders, YOU can make shorter shell holders.

5. Study the illustration below, the key words are "shoulder setback".

There is one other thing you can try but I have never had good luck with the method below, the duct tape always rips and the string breaks long before you reach a constant cam over force.

The real problem is I can never get the torque wrench doohickey to "click" and break at the right torque.

NOTICE: No reloading presses or torque wrenches were hurt or injured during the filming of this posting.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Holy deja-thread batman!

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...53172-too-much-ram-contact-shoulder-bump.html

 

[No1]

Hornady A 330

Unfired Lapua: 1.451

Once fired Lapua (same batch): 1.455

Pretty tight. I bet if you call Redding they will give you the dimension they spec that NM die to size to. Looks like you are right there at the minimum.
I'd modify the shell holder.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

What's your fired brass measure?

 

[FLIGHT762]

Just a FYI when using the Hornady bump gauges. My Hornady .330 gauge will measure @ 1.455" on a .223 Remington SAAMI 1.464" GO Gauge. This because of the chamfer on the edge of the bump gauge edge. Shoulders on Factory loaded .223 REM. / 5.56 NATO measure @ 1.453"-1.456" with the gauge (showing SAAMI minimum). My fired cases out of a few of my 5.56 AR-15's measure between 1.462"-1.465". Fired cases in my bolt gun measures @ 1.456-57".

If you're trying to compare SAAMI specs to the Hornady gauge readings, you need to measure your Hornady gauge on a SAAMI Go gauge. My .330 gauge has a .009" chamfer so I can add .009" if I want to get a SAAMI reading.

I don't know what gauge the O/P was using to get his 1.451" unfired Lapua case readings, but it might be the Hornady gauge.

 

[Stangs55]

Just a FYI when using the Hornady bump gauges. My Hornady .330 gauge will measure @ 1.455" on a .223 Remington SAAMI 1.464" GO Gauge. This because of the chamfer on the edge of the bump gauge edge. Shoulders on Factory loaded .223 REM. / 5.56 NATO measure @ 1.453"-1.456" with the gauge (showing SAAMI minimum). My fired cases out of a few of my 5.56 AR-15's measure between 1.462"-1.465". Fired cases in my bolt gun measures @ 1.456-57".

If you're trying to compare SAAMI specs to the Hornady gauge readings, you need to measure your Hornady gauge on a SAAMI Go gauge. My .330 gauge has a .009" chamfer so I can add .009" if I want to get a SAAMI reading.

I don't know what gauge the O/P was using to get his 1.451" unfired Lapua case readings, but it might be the Hornady gauge.

Thanks for those measurements.

I actually have a Redding Instant Indicator arriving in the mail today. This will include a SAAMI case...so I hope to be able to provide some exact measurements and comparisons.

 

[mdmp5]

Thanks for those measurements.

I actually have a Redding Instant Indicator arriving in the mail today. This will include a SAAMI case...so I hope to be able to provide some exact measurements and comparisons.

In my opinion, the instant indicator is the best game in town for measuring seating depth and shoulder setback. Keep in mind that the included saami case, which is more or less a go gauge, should be used as a mere reference. You may likely see that your sized brass will be headspaced a few thousandths longer than that case. As long as you are setting the shoulder back a thousandth from the fired dimension, you are straight.

You are really gonna like the instant indicator

 

[Stangs55]

In my opinion, the instant indicator is the best game in town for measuring seating depth and shoulder setback. Keep in mind that the included saami case, which is more or less a go gauge, should be used as a mere reference. You may likely see that your sized brass will be headspaced a few thousandths longer than that case. As long as you are setting the shoulder back a thousandth from the fired dimension, you are straight.

You are really gonna like the instant indicator

Got the instant indicator.

Instantly love it. Gonna need some more of these...

So I'm seeing that my once fired brass measures very consistently between 0.002-0.003 longer than their included SAAMI min case gauge...

Of course now that I'm able to make accurate, repeatable measurements...I still cannot bump that shoulder back 0.002. ... which would ironically be to almost exactly SAAMI min specs.

I spoke with Redding on the phone earlier this week (great people to deal with), and they offered to take the die back and check it...

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

All this to avoid sanding a few .001s off the top of the $2 shellholder?