Cant get good SD/ES with Lite barrel

[Sogan]

Gun: Tikka t3X LITE 1:8 22-250 which will shoot Hornday express 55gr in .5moa or under

OCW testing but not round robin per Cortina process. Testing between 37.5-39 grains in .3 increments and not really seeing any pressure signs even at 39. .040" off the lands. I am struggling to get my SD under 10 and ES under 20 (The numbers that I am getting are around SD: 15-20. ES: 25-40.) - Im only using 3 rounds for testing right now so I know those numbers are really bad then. Ive had zero issue developing loads for other guns that I have. Not exactly sure what's going wrong here but this is my first lite barrel. Since im doing the OCW testing I am trying to shoot well and taking my time to make sure I can get a good shot off. I may chamber the round and then shoot it 5-15 seconds later? This process was never an issue before but is the ammo heating up to much and causing inconsistencies or do I have something else going on?

Any Ideas? Im thinking of just re-testing with the same OCW powder charges but Im not sure if thats a dumb idea or not.

Components:
-Federal 210m
-H4350 (Testing between 37.5-39. Since this is the MV im after)
-Lapua Brass
-Hornady 75gr ELD-M
-Co-Ax Press with Hornady new dimension dies
-FX-120i w/ auto trickler
-Labradar

Process:
-Deprime
-Clean in rice
-Lube with Hornady One Shot
-FL resize with .002" shoulder bump with Hornady New Dimension Die
-Sinclair Expander Mandrel for .002" neck tension
-Trim to SAMMI 1.902" - I have to trim after every firing because they are growing .010 and reaching the max length after each time of 1.912
-Debur and then Chamfer with VLD chamfer tool
-Clean again in rice
-Prime/powder
-Seat bullet with Hornady die with microadjust

 

[straightshooter1]

Gun: Tikka t3X LITE 1:8 22-250 which will shoot Hornday express 55gr in .5moa or under

OCW testing but not round robin per Cortina process. Testing between 37.5-39 grains in .3 increments and not really seeing any pressure signs even at 39. .040" off the lands. I am struggling to get my SD under 10 and ES under 20 (The numbers that I am getting are around SD: 15-20. ES: 25-40.) - Im only using 3 rounds for testing right now so I know those numbers are really bad then. Ive had zero issue developing loads for other guns that I have. Not exactly sure what's going wrong here but this is my first lite barrel. Since im doing the OCW testing I am trying to shoot well and taking my time to make sure I can get a good shot off. I may chamber the round and then shoot it 5-15 seconds later? This process was never an issue before but is the ammo heating up to much and causing inconsistencies or do I have something else going on?

Any Ideas? Im thinking of just re-testing with the same OCW powder charges but Im not sure if thats a dumb idea or not.

Components:
-Federal 210m
-H4350 (Testing between 37.5-39. Since this is the MV im after)
-Lapua Brass
-Hornady 75gr ELD-M
-Co-Ax Press with Hornady new dimension dies
-FX-120i w/ auto trickler
-Labradar

Process:
-Deprime
-Clean in rice
-Lube with Hornady One Shot
-FL resize with .002" shoulder bump with Hornady New Dimension Die
-Sinclair Expander Mandrel for .002" neck tension
-Trim to SAMMI 1.912" - I have to trim after every firing because they are growing .010 and reaching the max length after each time of 1.912
-Debur and then Chamfer with VLD chamfer tool
-Clean again in rice
-Prime/powder
-Seat bullet with Hornady die with microadjust

Yes, it could be a heat issue You didn't say what the ambient temperatures were that you're shooting in. With a "lite barrel", one needs to take a lot of time to be sure the heat isn't building up and staying up. When ambient temperatures are high, it take quite a while for the barrel and chamber to cool down. It's an issue for me as I shoot in summer time temperatures here in Arizona and I use a barrel cooler to help speed the cool down time. Too much barrel heat will effect your OCW results too.

How many times have you fired that Lapua brass?

What was a big help for me to get my SD's and ES's down low was annealing. The annealing did several things that I saw with my brass. 1. I got way more consistent shoulder bumps. 2. I got more consistent bullet seating, which I could feel when seating them. 3. I also got less runout. I anneal after every firing to keep them consistent as each firing results in resizing and that resizing does a lot of work hardening on the case.

Whether you're annealing or not, a technique that helps a lot with consistency is by having a lot of dwell time when sizing. That is, when the case is fully into the sizing die, leave it there for ~ 5 seconds before pulling the case out.

Cases growing by .010 is a lot! That suggests to me there's substantial difference in a sized case and a fired case. You should take some before and measurements at .200 above the base, on the body just below the body-shoulder junction and the neck OD. You might need to find a different sizing die that's not doing so much work your cases.

Another thing that can be a factor is variation in how deep the base of the bullet is into the case when seated. If there's a large variation in distance from the base of the bullets to the seating stem's contact point, this produces variation is seating depth, which effects velocity. So, these days, I always check and sort (if needs be) accordingly.

Well, there you go with some of my ideas . . . for whatever they're worth.

 

[Sogan]

Cases growing by .010 is a lot! That suggests to me there's substantial difference in a sized case and a fired case. You should take some before and measurements at .200 above the base, on the body just below the body-shoulder junction and the neck OD. You might need to find a different sizing die that's not doing so much work your cases.

Honestly, that really stood out to me as well. Usually I can get several firings before I need to trim again.

The Lapua brass has been fired 2 times so far.

 

[nn8734]

Gun: Tikka t3X LITE 1:8 22-250 which will shoot Hornday express 55gr in .5moa or under

OCW testing but not round robin per Cortina process. Testing between 37.5-39 grains in .3 increments and not really seeing any pressure signs even at 39. .040" off the lands. I am struggling to get my SD under 10 and ES under 20 (The numbers that I am getting are around SD: 15-20. ES: 25-40.) - Im only using 3 rounds for testing right now so I know those numbers are really bad then. Ive had zero issue developing loads for other guns that I have. Not exactly sure what's going wrong here but this is my first lite barrel. Since im doing the OCW testing I am trying to shoot well and taking my time to make sure I can get a good shot off. I may chamber the round and then shoot it 5-15 seconds later? This process was never an issue before but is the ammo heating up to much and causing inconsistencies or do I have something else going on?

Any Ideas? Im thinking of just re-testing with the same OCW powder charges but Im not sure if thats a dumb idea or not.

Components:
-Federal 210m
-H4350 (Testing between 37.5-39. Since this is the MV im after)
-Lapua Brass
-Hornady 75gr ELD-M
-Co-Ax Press with Hornady new dimension dies
-FX-120i w/ auto trickler
-Labradar

Process:
-Deprime
-Clean in rice
-Lube with Hornady One Shot
-FL resize with .002" shoulder bump with Hornady New Dimension Die
-Sinclair Expander Mandrel for .002" neck tension
-Trim to SAMMI 1.902" - I have to trim after every firing because they are growing .010 and reaching the max length after each time of 1.912
-Debur and then Chamfer with VLD chamfer tool
-Clean again in rice
-Prime/powder
-Seat bullet with Hornady die with microadjust

Why are you concerned with SD and ES at this stage in the development process?

How do the initial groups look (maybe post a pic of your ocw)?

How far do you plan on shooting this rifle and at what size targets on a routine basis?

 

[Doom]

Brass growing 0.010" after setting shoulder back 0.002" seems excessve. I suspect you are setting the should back more than you think. I doubt that is actually affecting your SD and quite frankly I doubt that you actually need a 10SD. Anyway, testing three rounds and trying to make something out of the test SD is not worthwhile. Put the chronograph away and rely on the target.

 

[Sogan]

Brass growing 0.010" after setting shoulder back 0.002" seems excessve. I suspect you are setting the should back more than you think. I doubt that is actually affecting your SD and quite frankly I doubt that you actually need a 10SD. Anyway, testing three rounds and trying to make something out of the test SD is not worthwhile. Put the chronograph away and rely on the target.

Wish I knew why but it certainly is. Here’s before sizing. Headspace: 1.657 and case length: 1.904

After sizing. Headspace: 1.565 and case length: 1.912:

 

[918v]

That’s normal growth for a 22-250

 

[Charlie112]

I reload for my Tikka compact, same caliber,, I run 50 grain, Hornady H380, and some Varget .. I am not finding fault with your load,, so don’t take this wrong, I love reading about reloading and issues and specs etc,, Your powder measurement got my attention,, I looked in my Nozzler, Guide number 8, just because it was the first one on the bench,, and it looks like you are a little strong on your charge…32, 34 @ 36hrs.. with 36 being the max and 32 being the most accurate load tested. I also get case growth, but the Lupa is a very fine brass for my rifle and charge. This is my second Tikka 22-250.. and I also reload for my Remington Varmint.. long barrel and heavy,, but great barn rifle… anyway,, I agree with the comment, more shells on target and pics.. Good Luck!!! Charlie112

 

[RegionRat]

All of the above advice on brass prep and consistency is good and important since inconsistency can ruin precision work, but...

I may have missed it, did @Sogan find the best group shift node from his testing and now working on the speed stats?
Or are we assuming the OCW is about SD/ES or "flat spots"?

I haven't heard what the group centers were doing and I am wondering if the focus of the OCW test is misunderstood?

 

[Doom]

All of the above advice on brass prep and consistency is good and important since inconsistency can ruin precision work, but...

I may have missed it, did @Sogan find the best group shift node from his testing and now working on the speed stats?
Or are we assuming the OCW is about SD/ES or "flat spots"?

I haven't heard what the group centers were doing and I am wondering if the focus of the OCW test is misunderstood?

I have to admit when I saw OCW and Eric Cortina in the same sentence I had to scratch my head. I've used Newberry's OCW for over 10 years and I personally believe that round robin is important. That's especially true if you start the testing with a clean rifle.

 

[Sogan]

Re-shot it round robin style. Waited 5 mins between shots in 35 degree weather. Roughly the same SD/ES for each group (SD:15ish. ES:30ish).

38.7 and 39 have pretty similar POI. So I may load some more up between there to continue testing.

 

[Doom]

Stepping back, what MV are you looking for and what is the source of your data? Also, what COAL?

 

[Doom]

37.4-39 is my call. I would load 38.7 and see how it shoots.

 

[Sogan]

Stepping back, what MV are you looking for and what is the source of your data? Also, what COAL?

Tikka t3x Lite 1:8 22.7" barrel. This is a winter only load since thats when I coyote hunt

Load data came from measuring lands and completing a pressure test. Book max COAL doesnt really apply when its for a different size bullet and if it still feeds reliably in my magazine right? The bullet is seated atleast the diameter width into the case.

Load is .040" off the lands with a COAL of 2.607" which magazine feeds out of the KRG bravo CTR mags with no issues.

Average velocities at 35 degrees:
37.2 - 3271
37.5 -3349
37.8 - 3388
38.1 - 3355
38.4 - 3365
38.7 - 3368
39 - 3415

37.4-39 is my call. I would load 38.7 and see how it shoots.

Are you saying loads 37.4 and 39 or between those charges?

 

[RegionRat]

I'm suggesting the test came out ambiguous.

In theory, the purpose of this type of test is to observe the shifts in the centroid of the group pattern and that is done regardless of the group size or the velocity stats. However...

If the gun isn't grouping well at all, then there isn't much to see. If we try to plot the X-Y location of those yellow crosses that represent the group centers, we are looking at an OCW test. Large variations in group size do not make this an easy task. And... Velocities from low sample tests are not going to give you meaningful SD/ES stats.

 

[918v]

Looking at 37.8 and 38.7 grains. You fucked something up.

 

[Doom]

Looking at 37.8 and 38.7 grains. You fucked something up.

Yes I did. 38.4-39 was what my finger were supposed to type. Load 38.7 and try that.

1900 ft-lbs is a heck of a lot of energy for a 22-250. Typical max is around 1750. Being a light rifle and you my find better accuracy at a lower charge weight. I bet your brass will last longer.

 

[aprocast]

You are ruining that brass PDQ
I use the same rifle and only neck size using a collet die, getting 5 reloads before FLS is required

 

[Sogan]

You are ruining that brass PDQ
I use the same rifle and only neck size using a collet die, getting 5 reloads before FLS is required

Brass is going to go quick but truthfully it’s not a huge concern of mine for the limited use this rifle will get. Although it’s limited, I still want it as accurate as possible, like we all do I’m sure

 

[Sogan]

Yes I did. 38.4-39 was what my finger were supposed to type. Load 38.7 and try that.

1900 ft-lbs is a heck of a lot of energy for a 22-250. Typical max is around 1750. Being a light rifle and you my find better accuracy at a lower charge weight. I bet your brass will last longer.

I’m going to see what’s under 37.2 as well. Slightly slower than a want the MV but if the accuracy is better and more consistent then that may be the way I end up

 

[RegionRat]

What/how is this rig used?
What is your distance goal, i.e., what is your longest shot goal where you expect to deliver both accuracy and energy?

Depending on your answer, have you considered an Audette Ladder style test at distance?

It is just my opinion, but with light carry rifles without long track records to suggest the load recipe in advance... tend to "show" better with the Audette test in fewer shots, then follow up with fine group refinements using the best node from the Audette.

 

[Yondering]

Re-shot it round robin style. Waited 5 mins between shots in 35 degree weather. Roughly the same SD/ES for each group (SD:15ish. ES:30ish).

38.7 and 39 have pretty similar POI. So I may load some more up between there to continue testing.

If you're not shooting itty bitty groups, then who cares whether you can achieve a small SD? That's only of value if the load also has the accuracy to take advantage of it (for the purposes of extending the effective range to reliably make hits at long distance), which yours doesn't.

Don't chase SD, chase accuracy. Once you get accuracy figured out, then look to SD.

 

[MarkyMark007]

I am struggling to get my SD under 10 and ES under 20 (The numbers that I am getting are around SD: 15-20. ES: 25-40.)

those numbers are very good for your application, which is hunting. you wont see any better groups with lower ES/SD. and remember: ES = SD ×4.

focus on finding a good group with OAL, not with powder charge.

velocity SD/ES is a function of your precision loading, good barrel and good bullet, good primer-powder combination... and not a powder charge per-se.

and dont do stupid things like ladder test, OCW test and other bullshit, which doesnt work. waste of time and components.