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Care And Feeding Of A GAP 6.5 SAUM.....
- Thread starter psinclair
- Start date
Question on Brass Prep, Neck Turning?
In forming .284 brass from 6.5-284, I have run into the "Dreaded Donut" issue. I catch these using a Pin Gage:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/214393-short-action-284-win-tactical-l-build-shilen-action-barrel-2.html#post3038151
See Post #61
To get rid of that donut, I had to work the brass (multiple passes with different die setups) or neck turn to get rid of them.
While researching that issue, I came across a Forester setup where both an inside reamer and outside cutter are used together:
To me this made sense, because it insured uniformity both on the inside and outside of the neck. I also felt this was needed, because the donuts that I was encountering and having issues with were primarily on the inside, and the inside reamer was the only thing that really got rid of them consistently.
So what do you say about using that setup (inside & outside cutting) in this scenario with this brass going from .300 to .264? Would it be beneficial, detrimental, or really not matter?
Form what I can figure out, it seems like in this scenario going from .300 to .264 that the major issue is a bulge/donut that forms on the outside of the case at the neck shoulder junction, and this is being taken care of by cutting into that junction?
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge on this subject!
In forming .284 brass from 6.5-284, I have run into the "Dreaded Donut" issue. I catch these using a Pin Gage:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/214393-short-action-284-win-tactical-l-build-shilen-action-barrel-2.html#post3038151
See Post #61
To get rid of that donut, I had to work the brass (multiple passes with different die setups) or neck turn to get rid of them.
While researching that issue, I came across a Forester setup where both an inside reamer and outside cutter are used together:
To me this made sense, because it insured uniformity both on the inside and outside of the neck. I also felt this was needed, because the donuts that I was encountering and having issues with were primarily on the inside, and the inside reamer was the only thing that really got rid of them consistently.
So what do you say about using that setup (inside & outside cutting) in this scenario with this brass going from .300 to .264? Would it be beneficial, detrimental, or really not matter?
Form what I can figure out, it seems like in this scenario going from .300 to .264 that the major issue is a bulge/donut that forms on the outside of the case at the neck shoulder junction, and this is being taken care of by cutting into that junction?
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge on this subject!
Guys I need some help. I have a 6.5 saum from SAC. I have the redding die set from copper creek as well as 50 pieces of brass processed from them as well. I loaded the initial 50 and was able to chamber them ok with the occasional one having a little resistance closing the bolt. I cleaned and sized them with .291 bushing. They all chamber ok with empty cases. When I load a bullet the goes about 1/4-1/2" from closing and stops. I resized brass again and still same issues. Any ideas on something to check?? Brass is. 2.015 and empty neck is .290-.293. Loaded necks are .294-.295. Loaded initial rounds 2.820" with 139 scenar . Tried the same and down to 2.78 so it not a coal issue.
Are you measuring the loaded round OD with a caliper or micrometer?
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What do your fired cases measure at the neck? Can you put a bullet through the neck of a fired case? You stated that a sized empty case chambers easy...any resistance when you close and lock the bolt?
My fired cases were .292-.294 after firing. Most of them I could push a bullet atleast 1/2 way down the neck ( didn't attempt further) with resistance but not excess. About like a thumbtack in drywall
Humm, neck measurement on a fired case should be .296" if you have the .296 reamer. Could be your necks are to thick, I can slide a bullet through my necks very easy but I turn my necks to .01465" sounds like your necks can't expand enough.
Could be but they are still .294-295 under the .296 reamer so it should fit with .002-.001 clearance. And the first firing I didn't have a neck issue. It very well may be a neck thickness issue. I don't have the equipment to turn them though and it's not in the near term budget
Most of them close easily, I had 5 out of the 50 that were kind of hard right as you start downward to close the bolt but close easy the rest of the way
Could be, when I hear of resistance on sized fired Noma brass. Spak have you tested your stuff yet? Hawk sending you a PM
I did the same last night on the cases I duplicated as yours and they performed flawless, even rechambering fired cases, all while logging .3 @ 3150 with a 10 ES 140jlk's on 10 shots.
So are you guys saying that with the Norma brass we may need to turn our necks down to .014"?
That would make sense. I loaded some sized Norma brass fired them with no issues. Reloaded them and on the second firing I had many that it was very difficult to close the bolt on. I was wondering WTH was going on. Thought maybe the shoulder was not bumped enough, but checked them and the shoulder was fine.
If that's the case I guess I need to return all my Norma brass... Thanks for the insight.
That would make sense. I loaded some sized Norma brass fired them with no issues. Reloaded them and on the second firing I had many that it was very difficult to close the bolt on. I was wondering WTH was going on. Thought maybe the shoulder was not bumped enough, but checked them and the shoulder was fine.
If that's the case I guess I need to return all my Norma brass... Thanks for the insight.
Try this, on your sized brass that you've bumped the shoulder on: chamber the sized empty case and pull the trigger. Extract the cAse and put it back in the chamber again and cycle the bolt... Any easier??
i had this problem and it was diving me nuts. Finally some discussion with bas402 and some other folks I turned the brass down a bit further into the shoulder.... A lot a bit is more accurate. Fired and sized cases now run flawless without any resistance. I suspect it has something to do with two things:
1) after turning the first time the neck shoulder junction grew thicker after fire forming.
2) using a type s 7saum bushing die, the through hole before you get to the bushing is a bit larger than if it were a true 6.5 die. When sizing the entire portion of the shoulder isn't being pushed back enough and now that you have this thicker portion of brass just below the neck shoulder junction it's causing an interference fit.
Firing on a sized case exhibiting these symptoms seemed to size it back just enough to remove the interference and the brass chambers fine there after. However, to remedy the situation I had to turn the brass on the shoulder a bit more.
i turned brass to .014" on the necks to give more clearance. Plus, when I turned to .015" I couldn't get a bullet to pass through a fired case. .0145" was better but I had to "work" the bullet a bit to get it to go trough a fired case neck. .014" and a bullet will go through a fired case neck easily.
i had this problem and it was diving me nuts. Finally some discussion with bas402 and some other folks I turned the brass down a bit further into the shoulder.... A lot a bit is more accurate. Fired and sized cases now run flawless without any resistance. I suspect it has something to do with two things:
1) after turning the first time the neck shoulder junction grew thicker after fire forming.
2) using a type s 7saum bushing die, the through hole before you get to the bushing is a bit larger than if it were a true 6.5 die. When sizing the entire portion of the shoulder isn't being pushed back enough and now that you have this thicker portion of brass just below the neck shoulder junction it's causing an interference fit.
Firing on a sized case exhibiting these symptoms seemed to size it back just enough to remove the interference and the brass chambers fine there after. However, to remedy the situation I had to turn the brass on the shoulder a bit more.
i turned brass to .014" on the necks to give more clearance. Plus, when I turned to .015" I couldn't get a bullet to pass through a fired case. .0145" was better but I had to "work" the bullet a bit to get it to go trough a fired case neck. .014" and a bullet will go through a fired case neck easily.
I'm not saying you need to turn to .014 on your necks, each chamber is different to some aspects, I had to turn down to .01465" for me to be satisfied. I do agree with SPAK in that I think you need to turn onto the shoulder more because of the growth in the shoulder/neck junction. I even was able to duplicate what SPAK is talking about when chambering/trigger on a fired prepped empty Norma case. I even seen this (lesser degree) with Remmy brass but only on one case. I believe at some point even turning on to the shoulder more I will need to inside ream the necks. I even noticed that when Pat posted pic's not long ago on his 50 pieces of brass I noted that on his info listed on his box it stated inside reamed 2 times. We are dealing with a wildcat Rd here and expect certain things to pop up that we need to address. This is a ass kicking Rd cause through out my whole process my rig has shot lights out. I really enjoy it but there is a learning curve at least for me but It's worth it! I hope some one starts making a 6.5SAUM die sets in the future as I think it will save some of us some time. I'm also still hoping that George gets the brass project going quickly as well...THAT will seal the deal for me!
I could be mistaken, but I think when pat came out with these guidelines for case prep turning brass to .015" he was loading for the original reamer specs for a .298" chamber neck... Pat can you confirm this, I might be just out of my mind and making stuff up..
Couple of things,
Ordered my 6.5 SAUM FL Die & Seater from Whidden Gunworks, and to my surprise they were were shipped within 48 hours!
Whidden Gunworks
In regards to the comments above about using a 7 SAUM die, and it not fully controlling/bumping the neck/shoulder junction, I could maybe see that as being an issue?
I would be curious to see what the thickness is of the neck/shoulder junction on some of the 300 to 6.5 brass that has been turned down into the junction?
Seems like this is still somewhat of work in progress in terms of going from the 300 to the 6.5 in some cases?
I am still waiting on a couple of things to start working my Norma 300 brass, I will be posting the results when I get to it.
Ordered my 6.5 SAUM FL Die & Seater from Whidden Gunworks, and to my surprise they were were shipped within 48 hours!
Whidden Gunworks
In regards to the comments above about using a 7 SAUM die, and it not fully controlling/bumping the neck/shoulder junction, I could maybe see that as being an issue?
I would be curious to see what the thickness is of the neck/shoulder junction on some of the 300 to 6.5 brass that has been turned down into the junction?
Seems like this is still somewhat of work in progress in terms of going from the 300 to the 6.5 in some cases?
I am still waiting on a couple of things to start working my Norma 300 brass, I will be posting the results when I get to it.
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Not sure why getting a bullet through a fired case neck gets so much mention. Every cartridge I've shot with a tight neck, 6BR, 6PPC, 300WSM, etc, neck clearance is such that a bullet cannot be pushed into a fired case and pressures are normal, accuracy was and is excellent. Brass springs back from .001" to .002" after being fired, so if you have .002" clearance, you may not be able to get a bullet in a fired case. I had all kinds of pressure issues with my 6.5 SAUM and kept turning for more and more clearance hoping that would help but it made no difference. Still not sure what the issue is with my SAUM and I'm going to screw the barrel back on and try it Monday after having the throat lengthened a little. If that doesn't work I'll have a lot of 6.5 SAUM components available for sale 
Since I've had my issues I've been contacted by and talked to several others that have had pressure issues with the 6.5 SAUM. Not sure what's going on but something doesn't add up. It's not like it's any more complicated that other tight neck cartridges but there seems to be an issue somewhere and it's somewhat widespread it seems. Honestly after running 215 Bergers in my 300wsm the 6.5 SAUM is seeming less "magical".
Since I've had my issues I've been contacted by and talked to several others that have had pressure issues with the 6.5 SAUM. Not sure what's going on but something doesn't add up. It's not like it's any more complicated that other tight neck cartridges but there seems to be an issue somewhere and it's somewhat widespread it seems. Honestly after running 215 Bergers in my 300wsm the 6.5 SAUM is seeming less "magical".Well, I don't have any pressure issues, but I did have some thickening issues below the neck shoulder junction that made for a tight bolt closure. Which can mimick signs of excessive pressure.
as as far as neck clearance goes, being able to pass a bullet trough the neck tells me at least there are no doughnut issues that I have to worry about. It will also tell me that I have reliable release of the bullet when fired.. The just my preference.. IMO and just my preference for a rifle I take into the field I prefer .004" of clearance and no tighter. Just my preference.
as as far as neck clearance goes, being able to pass a bullet trough the neck tells me at least there are no doughnut issues that I have to worry about. It will also tell me that I have reliable release of the bullet when fired.. The just my preference.. IMO and just my preference for a rifle I take into the field I prefer .004" of clearance and no tighter. Just my preference.
That's a bummer it's. It working out for you. It's a pain making the brass but I love it once it's working for you.Not sure why getting a bullet through a fired case neck gets so much mention. Every cartridge I've shot with a tight neck, 6BR, 6PPC, 300WSM, etc, neck clearance is such that a bullet cannot be pushed into a fired case and pressures are normal, accuracy was and is excellent. Brass springs back from .001" to .002" after being fired, so if you have .002" clearance, you may not be able to get a bullet in a fired case. I had all kinds of pressure issues with my 6.5 SAUM and kept turning for more and more clearance hoping that would help but it made no difference. Still not sure what the issue is with my SAUM and I'm going to screw the barrel back on and try it Monday after having the throat lengthened a little. If that doesn't work I'll have a lot of 6.5 SAUM components available for sale
If you go to sell some stuff let me know.
Ok... I just tried this with 10 Norma cases that had been fired 2x before. Before resizing, I could push a bullet through the case easily, it make a nice little suction pop when removing - felt just right. After sizing and then chambering them in my rifle - out of the 10 pcs of brass, 7 chambered fine the first time. 2 were difficult and 1 was very difficult. All thee were much better after ejecting and then trying to chamber once again.
I don't recall having this problem with Rem brass, but to be safe turing a bit more into the neck seems to be the next step.
Thanks for the help - that was good info!
I've never reamed the insides before - guess it's time to figure that out. Thanks for the help!
You mean down on the shoulder more? Sounds like your neck tho ness is just about right
It's pretty straight forward, I'm already set up for it with a K&M tool I had when clean up my necks on my 260 brass. You can do it all in one pass, outside on to the shoulder, and inside. K&M has multiple angled cutters as well.
Anyone using Retumbo with 140gn projectile. Looking for a starting load.
currently loading 64gns Retumbo behind 127gn Barnes LRXs but have not tried any heavier bullets yet. Jut been given some 130 and 140 Nosler Accubonds to try
currently loading 64gns Retumbo behind 127gn Barnes LRXs but have not tried any heavier bullets yet. Jut been given some 130 and 140 Nosler Accubonds to try
Thanks give me a place to start, if you don't mind what was the max load you tried?
IIRC 63.6 Retumbo was the most I tried during a ladder test. I have a 29" barrel and a longer throat as the rifle is a long action. A few 140 hybrids, the load being 63 gr Retumbo, didn't make it to the steel at 3225 fps so I backed the load down to the next node which is 3125 fps at 60.9 grains.
Thanks for that. My rifle has 26inch barrel. Currentl load of 64gn retumbo and 127Gn Barnes LRX chrony'ed at 3310 average and accurate but want to try some 140's too LRXs load is for hunting, now I am looking for a load for general shooting (steel plates and such)
Sorry for starting this discussion over again.
I just ordered a GAP 6.5 SAUM, 26" barrel w/ 8.7" twist & .296" neck.
I have read every thread that I could find about load development and am still stumped for a load range with Nosler brass. I'll be using Berger 130 & 140 VLD's and Hybrids. I'd appreciate any help.
I just ordered a GAP 6.5 SAUM, 26" barrel w/ 8.7" twist & .296" neck.
I have read every thread that I could find about load development and am still stumped for a load range with Nosler brass. I'll be using Berger 130 & 140 VLD's and Hybrids. I'd appreciate any help.
Honestly the best advice would be to work up some loads. The magic load in Remington brass that I know of is 63 grains of H1000 with the 130's. And for the 140's it's around 61 to 61.5... but please do some work ups it may be too hot of a load for your specific rifle
I don't but from my DTA with the 300 RSAUM brass I have water capacity of...74 gr. I think. I will edit this once I get the actual from my notebook. You can compare yours from these numbers... but some of the guys already have the answer for you
300 to 6.5 RSAUM Brass Work, Lessons Learned!
Started with Norma 300 RSAUM Brass.
Using a Whidden 6.5 RSAUM Full Length Bushing Die Whidden Gunworks
I ran the brass through a series of 4 bushings (Redding Type S), .331, .317, .303, .291, which took the brass down to .252/.253 Inner Neck Diameter. I hind sight, I am not sure that I needed to really go down this small?
I then ran it through a Sinclair Expander Die with a 6.5 Expander Mandrel http://www.sinclairintl.com/search/index.htm?k=expander&ksubmit=y
This gave me an .262 inner neck diameter, with with a neck wall thickness of .019, and a .300 outer neck diameter, which left me with 2 issues to deal with.
Issue 1 - Looking at those measurements, the .300 outer neck diameter was going to be too big/tight to work with a .296 reamer. This meant the outside would have to be turned down.
Issue 2 - Utilizing a pin gage to check the inside neck measurement & consistency, I found that a "dreaded donut" was present.
Using a .262 pin gage, it would easily slide about 3/4s of the way down inside the neck and then stop. Looking inside the case it was not real evident, but you could tell that there was a thicker area of brass bulging into the neck just above the neck & shoulder junction.
Solution! I took my Forster neck turner with an inside neck reamer insert and turned both the inside and outside of the necks.
It took some trial & error with the adjustment but I was finally able to get an inside neck diameter of .264 with the reamer, a neck wall thickness of .015, and an outside neck diameter of .294.
I then took that brass and ran it through a Redding Types S 7 RSAUM Neck Die with a .292 bushing which gave me a finished inside neck diameter of .262 (I prefer .002 neck tension, some prefer more)
Checking the inside of the neck with a .262 pin gage, it showed no more signs of a donut. Checking the outside of the neck & shoulder junction I could not detect any buildup/donut. The outside finished neck diameter of .292 would work fine with the .296 neck reamer.
Success! or at least I am hoping so!
I will report back once I get this shot up on how everything went, and how I am going to handle the re-sizing.
Thanks again to everyone for sharing their feedback and getting me to this point.
Started with Norma 300 RSAUM Brass.
Using a Whidden 6.5 RSAUM Full Length Bushing Die Whidden Gunworks
I ran the brass through a series of 4 bushings (Redding Type S), .331, .317, .303, .291, which took the brass down to .252/.253 Inner Neck Diameter. I hind sight, I am not sure that I needed to really go down this small?
I then ran it through a Sinclair Expander Die with a 6.5 Expander Mandrel http://www.sinclairintl.com/search/index.htm?k=expander&ksubmit=y
This gave me an .262 inner neck diameter, with with a neck wall thickness of .019, and a .300 outer neck diameter, which left me with 2 issues to deal with.
Issue 1 - Looking at those measurements, the .300 outer neck diameter was going to be too big/tight to work with a .296 reamer. This meant the outside would have to be turned down.
Issue 2 - Utilizing a pin gage to check the inside neck measurement & consistency, I found that a "dreaded donut" was present.
Using a .262 pin gage, it would easily slide about 3/4s of the way down inside the neck and then stop. Looking inside the case it was not real evident, but you could tell that there was a thicker area of brass bulging into the neck just above the neck & shoulder junction.
Solution! I took my Forster neck turner with an inside neck reamer insert and turned both the inside and outside of the necks.
It took some trial & error with the adjustment but I was finally able to get an inside neck diameter of .264 with the reamer, a neck wall thickness of .015, and an outside neck diameter of .294.
I then took that brass and ran it through a Redding Types S 7 RSAUM Neck Die with a .292 bushing which gave me a finished inside neck diameter of .262 (I prefer .002 neck tension, some prefer more)
Checking the inside of the neck with a .262 pin gage, it showed no more signs of a donut. Checking the outside of the neck & shoulder junction I could not detect any buildup/donut. The outside finished neck diameter of .292 would work fine with the .296 neck reamer.
Success! or at least I am hoping so!
I will report back once I get this shot up on how everything went, and how I am going to handle the re-sizing.
Thanks again to everyone for sharing their feedback and getting me to this point.
300 to 6.5 RSAUM Brass Work, Lessons Learned!
Started with Norma 300 RSAUM Brass.
Using a Whidden 6.5 RSAUM Full Length Bushing Die Whidden Gunworks
I ran the brass through a series of 4 bushings (Redding Type S), .331, .317, .303, .291, which took the brass down to .252/.253 Inner Neck Diameter. I hind sight, I am not sure that I needed to really go down this small?
I then ran it through a Sinclair Expander Die with a 6.5 Expander Mandrel http://www.sinclairintl.com/search/index.htm?k=expander&ksubmit=y
This gave me an .262 inner neck diameter, with with a neck wall thickness of .019, and a .300 outer neck diameter, which left me with 2 issues to deal with.
Issue 1 - Looking at those measurements, the .300 outer neck diameter was going to be too big/tight to work with a .296 reamer. This meant the outside would have to be turned down.
Issue 2 - Utilizing a pin gage to check the inside neck measurement & consistency, I found that a "dreaded donut" was present.
Using a .262 pin gage, it would easily slide about 3/4s of the way down inside the neck and then stop. Looking inside the case it was not real evident, but you could tell that there was a thicker area of brass bulging into the neck just above the neck & shoulder junction.
Solution! I took my Forster neck turner with an inside neck reamer insert and turned both the inside and outside of the necks.
It took some trial & error with the adjustment but I was finally able to get an inside neck diameter of .264 with the reamer, a neck wall thickness of .015, and an outside neck diameter of .294.
I then took that brass and ran it through a Redding Types S 7 RSAUM Neck Die with a .292 bushing which gave me a finished inside neck diameter of .262 (I prefer .002 neck tension, some prefer more)
Checking the inside of the neck with a .262 pin gage, it showed no more signs of a donut. Checking the outside of the neck & shoulder junction I could not detect any buildup/donut. The outside finished neck diameter of .292 would work fine with the .296 neck reamer.
Success! or at least I am hoping so!
I will report back once I get this shot up on how everything went, and how I am going to handle the re-sizing.
Thanks again to everyone for sharing their feedback and getting me to this point.
Or just neck turn at 30cal then neck down = no doughnut
