Sidearms & Scatterguns Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

[Timo Turl]

...at least that is what this author thinks. Looks like he's been crunching quite a few numbers with some interesting conclusions. I found this when trying to decide between the 9mm and .40 S&W...according to his findings the difference isn't nearly as much as I'd imagined.

http://throwinglead.com/index.php?page=stopping_power

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

Watching the shooters at a concealed carry class shooting their qualification was a real eye opener that few actually train prior to carrying. Several were actually having extreme difficulty hitting a torso sized target with a Ruger MKII inside 15yds. They got to go another time or two....

I completely agree with the author. Get what you want and can shoot well because the best investment is in training.

9mm sure is cheap and plentiful.

Naw, seriously, you can't go wrong with either, unless you pick 9mm and want to shoot heavy class later in competition. Not that we don't like an "excuse" to buy another weapon!

 

[Hawk45]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

Interestig read...
For me whole "caliber" thing is insignificant for a personal defense situation. Usually under 3" barrel and at close range, with a motivated person on the other end, I'm looking to escape, not battle. HITS are what's important. If you can't hit your target, you can't stop them, and possibly hit an innocent bystandar. If you can't train enough with your .45ACP, better to carry something smaller you can control, get better aquisition and follow-up shots. This is not gospel, just how I feel about CCW

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I'm of the "learn to shoot what you carry" crowd. Ability to hit your target is more important the caliber.

A 4 duce is useless if you can't hit with it.

Tons of dryfiring and shooting competition with your carry piece goes a long way in preperation for possible self defence situations.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I would feel confident carry'in a 22, I dont but I would. It's all about shot placement and control in my book

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I would still have sex with a two inch penis but would rather have a thirteen incher

Not that I am packin that but I would never carry anything smaller than a 9mm but that is just preference. My girl carries a .380 with two extra magazines and we shoot weekly. I am confident she could stop an attacker with her .380 but she shoots my G17 more accurately.

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I love reading good information but this article should be renamed "Non-shooting Mofos shooting at mofos". I like different information like energy on target, feet per second etc etc more bullet performance than people who can't shoot. It is hard for me to believe a .22 head/torso shot vs. .45 head/torso shot is better....22 better?

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

Shot placement may be what counts, but no one can determine what exactly a bullet is going to do.

EXAMPLE 1 I saw a dash-cam of a trooper putting 5 shots of .45 ACP centermass into a suspect, suspect got off a single .22lr. The .22 hit the trooper in his left bicep, traveled into his chest and pierced his heart. The suspect is doing life for killing a cop.

EXAMPLE 2 An armored car driver was shot in the back of the head with a 9mm (close range). The bullet traveled the circumfrence of his skull under the skin and exited out his forehead. Soft tissue damage, some bad bleeding. He lived to talk about it.

EXAMPLE 3 A friend of mine was shot 10-12 times in areas ranging from his groin to his upper abdomen with an SKS at close range(7-10 yds). Bullets perforated his soft body armor. Six hours later he was pronounced dead.

EXAMPLE 4 Suspects involved in the shooting of a deputy attempted to run over several deputies in a driveway as they made their approach. Three deputies opend fire on the vehicle, an early 80s pick-up, you know, when they use to make them out of steel? Around 30 shots fired, .40 and .45 issued Winchester Ranger JHPs. No one was hit. Not for a lack of accuracy either. The bullets penetrated the outer sheet metal, but never made it past the bracing inside. One bullet was found lying in the bed, determined to be a borderline squib round, hit the rear window, and did not penetrate. It was slightly mushroomed.

Point? Regardless of what caliber you use, weight of bullet, FMJ or JHP, just hope that the chaos theory is on your side when/if you have to do it. There are choices that you can make to improve your odds, but NOTHING is the end-all answer.

 

[BarryMaslen]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

That's a very interesting study. I would have guessed smaller calibers to be substantially less effective compared to larger calibers.

 

[VTgunner]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sending downrange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's a very interesting study. I would have guessed smaller calibers to be substantially less effective compared to larger calibers. </div></div>

I think that's the general consensus of most shooters. I carry 147gr 9mm Federal Hydra-Shok's and have every belief they will do their job when needed

 

[paraman1]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

My Dad gave me some really good advice when I asked him about a handgun for concealed carry . He said "The best gun to have in a gunfight , is a gun." Considering he has been in more than a few gun fights in his life and lived to tell the tale I went ahead and followed his advice .

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

a friend/firearms instructor once told me, "don't talk shit on the guy carrying a 9mm because i sure as hell wouldn't want to be shot by one."

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I carried a 8+1 .45 auto for a long time. I still have it, but lately I've been packing the 13+1 9mm. More potential to make more holes..

 

[JKaiser]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I carried a 8+1 .45 auto for a long time. I still have it, but lately I've been packing the 13+1 9mm. More potential to make more holes..</div></div>

+1 on that. Most gunfights are won by the guy that fires the last shot. Carry whats comfortable to carry. I've tried 1911, Glocks in .45,.40 and 9mm, but I finally settled on FNH 5.7 21 rounds and weights less than any of them.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

doesn't matter if your shooting a 45 or 380. hitting your target wins gunfights not how many bullets you can get in the general direction. you may be awesome static at 5 yards at hitting that little black circle, but a gunfight is a entirely new animal. You WILL not stand up and go toe to toe with a guy with a gun. doesn't matter if he's got a pistol, rifle, etc.

 

[nashlaw]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watching the shooters at a concealed carry class shooting their qualification was a real eye opener that few actually train prior to carrying. Several were actually having extreme difficulty hitting a torso sized target with a Ruger MKII inside 15yds. They got to go another time or two....
</div></div>

I took a girlfriend with me to the CCW class. She used a Mod 18 .22 I have had for years. She did well with it considering she had never shot any type of firearm before. What was funny was that there were several gunshop commandos in the group. During the classroom instruction, they were blowing hard about how they shot, "this pistol has never failed me," blah, blah, blah. Their shooting belied most of their claims.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nashlaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watching the shooters at a concealed carry class shooting their qualification was a real eye opener that few actually train prior to carrying. Several were actually having extreme difficulty hitting a torso sized target with a Ruger MKII inside 15yds. They got to go another time or two....
</div></div>

I took a girlfriend with me to the CCW class. She used a Mod 18 .22 I have had for years. She did well with it considering she had never shot any type of firearm before. What was funny was that there were several gunshop commandos in the group. During the classroom instruction, they were blowing hard about how they shot, "this pistol has never failed me," blah, blah, blah. Their shooting belied most of their claims.</div></div>

In my experience, less than 10% of employees in a gun store actually practice with their defensive firearms, or shoot on a regular basis. The percentage is likely even worse amongst most police department.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on that. Most gunfights are won by the guy that fires the last shot. Carry whats comfortable to carry. I've tried 1911, Glocks in .45,.40 and 9mm, but I finally settled on FNH 5.7 21 rounds and weights less than any of them. </div></div>

Have any studies to back your claim?

I just love when folks jump in with comments like that. You may also want to take note of what professionals who go into harms way regularly choose to arm themselves with. It ain't the FiveSeven. In fact the shootings that I have been briefed on that involved that caliber were less than satisfactory.

According to most violent encounter studies that I have read to this point, the first HIT will generally determine the outcome. This is not a rule. Just a generalization. It's caliber independent. The bad part about generalizations is that sometimes they just don't fit the situation. I don't want to be the guy popping away with a .22LR at the 250lb gorilla on a bad trip.

I agree that you should be able to run what you brung. If you can't hit then it doesn't matter if you are dumping cylinders of .500S&W at the guy.

Me? I prefer to be proficient and punch the largest holes I can as fast as I can. Some days that may be a 9mm. Some days it's a .45ACP. Some it's a 1oz. Slug. It just depends on what I brung.

Now you want to see some fun? Take the guys who talk about how often they go to the range and "train". Give them a Sims pistol and throw them in a scenario and watch them duck for cover and empty a mag into air when they are attacked. Being handy with the steel is great, but it ain't all there is.

Train. Equip. Have a plan. Have another plan for WHEN the first plan fails. None of it may save your life...but at least it won't be for lack of trying.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

well said wolf

 

[navajo1018]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

That is a very interesting study thanks for sharing TJ. It supports the idea of "I'd be more scared of a guy with a .22 that knows how to shoot it well than a guy with a .45 that has no idea what he is doing"

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: navajo1018</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is a very interesting study thanks for sharing TJ. It supports the idea of "I'd be more scared of a guy with a .22 that knows how to shoot it well than a guy with a .45 that has no idea what he is doing" </div></div>

Until you see a guy take a head shot with a .22LR and then beat the hell out of his shooter with a tire iron.

 

[navajo1018]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: navajo1018</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is a very interesting study thanks for sharing TJ. It supports the idea of "I'd be more scared of a guy with a .22 that knows how to shoot it well than a guy with a .45 that has no idea what he is doing" </div></div>

Until you see a guy take a head shot with a .22LR and then beat the hell out of his shooter with a tire iron.

</div></div>

That is very true, Just saw a news report of a lady that got shot in the eye with a 44 mag and was still able to go the hospital and check herself in.

I was just noting the shocking overall similarities between all of the calibers in this particular study.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I would like to see that news report.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on that. Most gunfights are won by the guy that fires the last shot. Carry whats comfortable to carry. I've tried 1911, Glocks in .45,.40 and 9mm, but I finally settled on FNH 5.7 21 rounds and weights less than any of them. </div></div>

Have any studies to back your claim?

I just love when folks jump in with comments like that. You may also want to take note of what professionals who go into harms way regularly choose to arm themselves with. It ain't the FiveSeven. In fact the shootings that I have been briefed on that involved that caliber were less than satisfactory.

According to most violent encounter studies that I have read to this point, the first HIT will generally determine the outcome. This is not a rule. Just a generalization. It's caliber independent. The bad part about generalizations is that sometimes they just don't fit the situation. I don't want to be the guy popping away with a .22LR at the 250lb gorilla on a bad trip.

I agree that you should be able to run what you brung. If you can't hit then it doesn't matter if you are dumping cylinders of .500S&W at the guy.

Me? I prefer to be proficient and punch the largest holes I can as fast as I can. Some days that may be a 9mm. Some days it's a .45ACP. Some it's a 1oz. Slug. It just depends on what I brung.

Now you want to see some fun? Take the guys who talk about how often they go to the range and "train". Give them a Sims pistol and throw them in a scenario and watch them duck for cover and empty a mag into air when they are attacked. Being handy with the steel is great, but it ain't all there is.

Train. Equip. Have a plan. Have another plan for WHEN the first plan fails. None of it may save your life...but at least it won't be for lack of trying.</div></div>

Y'know John, I'd much rather read your musings on anything than just about any other "gun writer" alive and kicking these days. Have you submitted any of your pieces to G&A or American Handgunner?

 

[VKC]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I like the info, thanks. Point being is practice and carry legally.

I can say that most people that talk to about handguns and CCW, just don't "walk the walk". Short of being on duty LE or similar, many people are quick to talk about the merits of having this caliber or that pistol, but infrequently actually carry all the time. Point being is practice and actually carry whatever is comfortable enough for you that you shoot well enough.

Everything gained somewhere is a compromise elsewhere, whichever caliber or pistol that you choose.

 

[NET65]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot placement may be what counts, but no one can determine what exactly a bullet is going to do.

EXAMPLE 1 I saw a dash-cam of a trooper putting 5 shots of .45 ACP centermass into a suspect, suspect got off a single .22lr. The .22 hit the trooper in his left bicep, traveled into his chest and pierced his heart. The suspect is doing life for killing a cop.

EXAMPLE 2 An armored car driver was shot in the back of the head with a 9mm (close range). The bullet traveled the circumfrence of his skull under the skin and exited out his forehead. Soft tissue damage, some bad bleeding. He lived to talk about it.

EXAMPLE 3 A friend of mine was shot 10-12 times in areas ranging from his groin to his upper abdomen with an SKS at close range(7-10 yds). Bullets perforated his soft body armor. Six hours later he was pronounced dead.

EXAMPLE 4 Suspects involved in the shooting of a deputy attempted to run over several deputies in a driveway as they made their approach. Three deputies opend fire on the vehicle, an early 80s pick-up, you know, when they use to make them out of steel? Around 30 shots fired, .40 and .45 issued Winchester Ranger JHPs. No one was hit. Not for a lack of accuracy either. The bullets penetrated the outer sheet metal, but never made it past the bracing inside. One bullet was found lying in the bed, determined to be a borderline squib round, hit the rear window, and did not penetrate. It was slightly mushroomed.

Point? Regardless of what caliber you use, weight of bullet, FMJ or JHP, just hope that the chaos theory is on your side when/if you have to do it. There are choices that you can make to improve your odds, but NOTHING is the end-all answer. </div></div>

I believe the bad guy in example 1's name is Blackburn, and I think the trooper was shooting 357 mag not 45, but I could be wrong. Either way, I agree its all about shot placement and luck.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Y'know John, I'd much rather read your musings on anything than just about any other "gun writer" alive and kicking these days. Have you submitted any of your pieces to G&A or American Handgunner? </div></div>

Not yet, but ya never know.

 

[navajo1018]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see that news report.</div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uOJ4RMW_U&feature=related

 

[Saito]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

What's the saying about amateurs debating caliber and professionals debating technique?

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

its not the size of the "tool" its how you use it

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The new guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I believe the bad guy in example 1's name is Blackburn, and I think the trooper was shooting 357 mag not 45, but I could be wrong. Either way, I agree its all about shot placement and luck.</div></div>

I believe you are right, it may have been a .357.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not the size of the "tool" its how you use it

</div></div>

I have definitely been called a "tool" from time to time.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: navajo1018</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is a very interesting study thanks for sharing TJ. It supports the idea of "I'd be more scared of a guy with a .22 that knows how to shoot it well than a guy with a .45 that has no idea what he is doing" </div></div>

Much better music is made by a pennywhistle in the hands of someone that knows how to play it than made by a $30,000 Steinway 8 foot grand by someone that does not.

That said, the mere presence of a firearm often changes the direction of a violent encounter, whether fired or not. And not always for the better I might add.

 

[Chadwick122689]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Saito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's the saying about amateurs debating caliber and professionals debating technique? </div></div>

The one I know is that "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals study logistics" -General Omar Bradley...

 

[Arbiter]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chadwick122689</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Saito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's the saying about amateurs debating caliber and professionals debating technique? </div></div>

The one I know is that "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals study logistics" -General Omar Bradley... </div></div>

And in the field of handgunning, logistics can be most clearly interpreted as the details of carrying daily. Holster, placement, concealment methods, accessibility, comfortability, cost, weight, and legality. Just having one at the moment it's needed is already a colossal step upwards from the status quo.

I've sold far more handguns for concealed carry, than I've sold handguns that are <span style="font-style: italic">being</span> carried. It would be fascinating to see a credibly study conducted to see how many days each year the average permit holder carries a firearm on their person in public. Offhand, the nationwide average is probably a single-digit number at best.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

I'll stick with my .40 S&W caliber. I practice enough with it to be proficient and reletively fast. Ammo cost sucks though.

 

[akflier]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

Ammo costs do suck, that's one reason why I've recently re-evaluated my carry gun. That and realizing that I was carrying less and less, due to comfort. Add those two together and now I'm thinking a small, light 9 sounds like the winner for me.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You WILL not stand up and go toe to toe with a guy with a gun. doesn't matter if he's got a pistol, rifle, etc. </div></div>

Sometimes you don't have a choice, and if that's the case you'd better get after it.

Pistols may suck at killing people, but I still want a combo of large enough bullet to poke big holes and carry enough bullets for piece of mind in case my shooting sucks that day or the BG is working real hard at trying to not get shot.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You WILL not stand up and go toe to toe with a guy with a gun. doesn't matter if he's got a pistol, rifle, etc. </div></div>

Sometimes you don't have a choice, and if that's the case you'd better get after it.

Pistols may suck at killing people, but I still want a combo of large enough bullet to poke big holes and carry enough bullets for piece of mind in case my shooting sucks that day or the BG is working real hard at trying to not get shot.
</div></div>

I think what he is saying is that a gunfight is nothing like standing still in front of a target and shooting at it. You will be moving in a gunfight, or should be.

All the examples and "chaos theory" should illustrate the point that while there may be marginal differences in performance among the common handgun calibers, there is a truly a world of difference between any of those calibers and a shotgun or rifle. Something to think about for home defense.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

Very interesting thread.

"I've sold far more handguns for concealed carry, than I've sold handguns that are being carried." True and important. Whereas I would come down on the side of those that would say "Thank God" a majority of permit holders don't actually carry, I do think that many permit holders are "over" gunned. So much so that they quickly choose to leave their arms at home.

As to the "article," if that translates to "if you don't carry because your tired of dragging around heavy metal, carry a smaller, lighter firearm" and that translates to a smaller caliber, well, I agree with that as well. I am always astonished at the number of people that buy full boat .45 autos that, with the reliability of a rain dance, are the equivalent of hiding a brick on their person. I'm equally amazed at those that carry pistols with high teen round counts. I am not talking about those that are constantly stepping out with the responsibility to put themselves in harms way, I am talking about the passive permit carrier.

I remember that starting about 20 years ago there was quite a bit of dialog on what factual data could be distilled out of concealed carry incidents that resulted in the discharge of a handgun. The thought was, at that time, that the best way to prepare was to study the actual "requirements" based on actual "incident" use. At that time the data was split between two classes of Police carry, being concealed and open. Either of those classes where at much higher risk of drawing and firing than any profile found with private citizens with permits. Remember that.

Going into the analysis, the general thought was that 1-3 rounds were fired, total, between a party of two. In other words, approx 2 taps and the "event" ended. That belief had been pretty well taken as fact for years.

And then....the things changed. Intentional rounds where seen as moving up to six. As this was pre 1994, that meant a full revolver emptied (the majority of incidents) or an average of three between two parties if there was a gun fight. So, folks trained for that and quick reload training was adopted. All, by the way, within less than 10 feet. Then? The autoloaders came out and everything changed. Round count went up 25% to an average of 8-9 rounds still representing either one person dumping, or approx even split between two parties, or 4 rounds. And, today, that amount seems to still be a rough average, one person emptying...or two people with an average 4 rounds fired. By the way accuracy went down almost 50%.

So where does that leave us? Well, a vast majority of "incidents" within 10 feet, 4-5 rounds, the vast majority there was absolutely no sight alignment, a majority had their weapon in hand long before discharge as in "quick-draw" was rare, all happening in under a minute. And all these events happening rarely, very rarely.

My thought is to carry a heavy caliber, in the smallest, most reliable pistol possible, train to draw slowly and fire without using sites, double tap twice quickly, at a target at 10 feet....and do that until it is a natural, thoughtful process. Small handgun good, small caliber >.38 good, small target good, small distance good.

 

[Kingof battle]

Re: Carry what you want, calibre isn't that important

Thats why i carry a .22lr derringer. 1 shot, tango down!