Case annealing experts.. Step inside. upd 1st pst

[Stevos758]

How do these look? 450 templaq on the outside of the case. Too much, Not enough, or just right?

Update! Slowed it down a little bit. Turned off the lights and i could see the neck turning slightly orange. I am around 4 seconds now. These new pics are of the time turned down. The really clean one is a piece of Winchester out of the batch I hope to anneal. There is very little color change at all but you can see the faint line where the others have a more defined line. The inside of the case mouth there is 650 templaq.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

My inclination is to say, "Too much". You have indicator down so far on the body, that the neck of the case probably became way hotter than the 450 degrees. I'd bet the necks are too soft.

 

[Stevos758]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

Necks are supposed to be around 750 right?

See page 5 for reference
http://www.giraudtool.com/Annealer%20IB.pdf

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

The finished color looks like too much to me, but it could be the finish on the brass. Have you tried with the lights off to see how red the neck gets? It should just start to glow.

 

[Stevos758]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

The necks are not supposed to glow. I have not done a lights off test yet.

See this for reference
http://annealingmachines.com/how_to_anneal

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

I call it glowing when the material gets excited enough to emit photons, but yes, it should "dull maroon," which is a faint glow as opposed to a full on ember red or white glow.

Trust me, I have about 20 loadings on my cases. If what I am doing is wrong, I would have had to toss them a long time ago. I have under annealed before. And usually that means that it will not start to glow under heat.

My finished Lapua casings barely turn color, but that has to do with the material in the cases as well as the Hornady Ultra Sonic Case Cleaner I use. Those cases you have look to have a good patina. Some of my Federal cases look like that after annealing.

Clearly, your case head is fine, according to Tempilaq. I would just be worried about getting the case mouth too hot.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

Are you spinning them with a screwdriver or something? If so, go low light and spin a cartridge with the tip of the inner blue flame on the neck with the flame tip toward the mouth of the case. Watch intently the flame as it bounces off the mouth. You will see one color as you start then ALL OF A SUDDEN the color of the flame at the case mouth will change. That is enough! Try it with your Tempilaq if you wish to see where and when that happens.

 

[jlow]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

It’s not possible to tell if the neck and shoulders are done correctly by color alone as there are too many factors that affect this.

You need to use two temperature sensitive Tempilaq when you are doing annealing. Use 650 degree stuff from the middle of the case to the top of the neck and 400 degree stuff from the middle down to the head. When you anneal properly, the stuff at the neck and shoulders should just turn clear and none of the 400 degree stuff should change.

By using only 450 degree stuff down from the neck to the middle of the case, all you can tell is it got to 450 degrees or hotter a little bit higher than the middle of the case and you case head did not soften. This last part is good but you have no idea how hot your neck and shoulders got. The idea is to just take away the work hardening i.e. what is called “intermediate annealing” and not “full annealing” in which case they would become too soft to hold your bullet. That is why you need to not get the neck and shoulders too hot.

Using the indicator alone is hard since the flame can burn it and can give you a false positive. Some people put it inside the case neck so that it is not directly exposed to the flame but then it is hard to see. One of the best ways is to anneal the brass JUST BEFORE it starts to glow in the dark as Sevos758 says. So if it takes 2.7 seconds to get it to glow, do it for 2.5 seconds. Obviously this is pretty hard to do by hand and that is why people tend to use annealing machines.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

Cases look fine, they still have a shine on the neck...a big indicator. If your brass is gone too far the finish will be dull on the neck. I would say you are close to the edge on these but not quite. I use a darkened room and wait for barely red (NOT ORANGE) glow on the mouth of the case.

 

[inspectorpacket]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

The look ok, maybe just slightly well done. Are you using the giruad annealer?

 

[NoFail]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

I'm sure you annealed clean brass, right? Looks like they were cleaned.
It does look well done, it definately isn't rare, that is.

 

[Teggy1]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

IMHO, too much. I've only annealed Winchester, and IF i get any color (patina after the process) barely has a rose hue.

I have often wondered if the different polishing compounds/medias cause the brass to oxidize (the source of your color) more/less, as I never get the pretty colors every on else does.

I believe I am annealing correctly, as there is a significant difference when sizing and seating compared to un-annealed. My results are using the tempilaq on the shoulder similar to the OP.

 

[Temp9]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO, too much. I've only annealed Winchester, and IF i get any color (patina after the process) barely has a rose hue.

I have often wondered if the different polishing compounds/medias cause the brass to oxidize (the source of your color) more/less, as I never get the pretty colors every on else does.

I believe I am annealing correctly, as there is a significant difference when sizing and seating compared to un-annealed. My results are using the tempilaq on the shoulder similar to the OP.</div></div>

This is exactly why I don't rely on case color for annealing. With LC '07-09, for example, I get a typical blue annealing scale if I anneal right after cleaning (SS tumbling). If I wait a few days, I get almost no color change. LC '11, on the other hand, gives me a very nice grey/blue color regardless of how it was cleaned. Remington brass and Winchester brass develop different appearances after annealing.

To the OP, yes, the cases are supposed to glow. But the glow should only be visible under very low light.

 

[Stevos758]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

I am going to turn the lights off tonight and see if I am getting them red. If they are which it sounds like they are getting there, I will back it down to just below slightly glowing.

 

[Stevos758]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

Update in first post.

 

[Rooster931]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

I vote a little too well done. I anneal quit often and after you have done over 5000 cases you just know by the color, I do not even use a temp indicator any longer.

 

[Stevos758]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rooster931</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I vote a little too well done. I anneal quit often and after you have done over 5000 cases you just know by the color, I do not even use a temp indicator any longer. </div></div>

Even the newer ones?

 

[Teggy1]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

I say the last try looks a lot better. Looks like your on the right track.

 

[Stevos758]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say the last try looks a lot better. Looks like your on the right track.

</div></div>

Thanks. I am sure they are OK. The necks are shiny and not dull like the first batch.

 

[Rooster931]

Re: Case annealing experts.. Step inside

Sorry I did not see the new ones yes they are looking better. If you want a great demo on what they look like when they get to temp. Check out the demo on ammosmith.com he does a great job describing the process probably better than I could do. Sounds corny but you will know when you get the feel.