Not normally but I do remember a while back I was cleaning them and had the bolts sitting next to each other. Got distracted and couldn’t remember which was which. Did some research and it seemed like it shouldn’t have made a difference. This is the only thing I can think of that could’ve possibly happened on my end
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Case splitting
- Thread starter DukeGSP
- Start date
okay so spoke with the smith late last night.
everyone on here was right (never doubted that) it was a big headspace issue. he claims while recrowning the barrel that some shavings must've gotten around the threads which didn't allow him to torque the barrel back to the correct headspace. he's admitting to not checking the headspace since he "figured" he spun the barrel back to the same place as before. he said he was embarrassed of this and apologized 400 times. he offered to replaced my bolt but I declined since savage didn't charge me for the replacement parts. he also offered a big discount on the next project.
I will be more cautious next time and I think he will too. mistakes happen, I'm just glad I or anyone around me wasn't hurt. I appreciate everyone's time and help with this.
everyone on here was right (never doubted that) it was a big headspace issue. he claims while recrowning the barrel that some shavings must've gotten around the threads which didn't allow him to torque the barrel back to the correct headspace. he's admitting to not checking the headspace since he "figured" he spun the barrel back to the same place as before. he said he was embarrassed of this and apologized 400 times. he offered to replaced my bolt but I declined since savage didn't charge me for the replacement parts. he also offered a big discount on the next project.
I will be more cautious next time and I think he will too. mistakes happen, I'm just glad I or anyone around me wasn't hurt. I appreciate everyone's time and help with this.
Would like to know how he "figured" he spun it back to the same place. It takes very little threading to start making big changes in the spacing. Sounds like this is his normal operating mode, not really an honest mistake. Who spins a barrel back on and does not at least run some gauges in it?
Don't go back to him....ever.
Don't go back to him....ever.
You never "spin it back to the same place" with a barrel nut system, i.e. Savage 12 (any 10/110 series). You do that with a fixed shoulder type system, i.e. Rem 700, Win 70.
I agree with what was said earlier that not only is this a headspace issue, it's also a high-pressure issue. If you fired those with the suppressor on, I would check that out before you fired again. You may see a bullet strike in there. If you don't and still want to fire this, I would put it under a sandbag with a string on the trigger to fire it.
There is the possibility you got high pressure from a secondary ignition when the case separated.
All told, I hope that rifle is coming completely apart and is fully inspected before you attempt to fire it again.
I agree with what was said earlier that not only is this a headspace issue, it's also a high-pressure issue. If you fired those with the suppressor on, I would check that out before you fired again. You may see a bullet strike in there. If you don't and still want to fire this, I would put it under a sandbag with a string on the trigger to fire it.
There is the possibility you got high pressure from a secondary ignition when the case separated.
All told, I hope that rifle is coming completely apart and is fully inspected before you attempt to fire it again.
Thanks for the update and filling us in with what you & the gunsmith determined.
As ShtrRdy said, thanks for updating us. It's important issues like this get attention. Mistakes like this can't happen and we continue to have safe operation of firearms.
In order for the round to fire the rim would have to be within about .030"-.040" of the bolt face. The question I have is if it's GROSS headspace how did the firing pin reach the primer?
Good point Dave. Only thing I can think of is sometimes savages have a short freebore. Maybe bullets were jamming, previously, but with longer headspace were just kissing rifling. Holding it cartridge close enough to get a good fp hit. If headspace was too long, id think a unfired case would not eject/would push too far forward for extractor to grab rim.
Let's see here...………..from ANSI-SAAMI Z299.4:
If we need a max of .030" gap from bolt face to primer (assuming primer is flush, I know I know) for reliable ignition, that means that headspace can be as large as 1.5668" (1.551+.030-.0142) and still go bang.
Is .0158" over max gross headspace? I don't know. Others who know more than I would have to say.
- 6.5 Creedmoor's head space is 1.541 - 1.551.
- 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge base to shoulder datum is 1.5368 - 1.5438
If we need a max of .030" gap from bolt face to primer (assuming primer is flush, I know I know) for reliable ignition, that means that headspace can be as large as 1.5668" (1.551+.030-.0142) and still go bang.
Is .0158" over max gross headspace? I don't know. Others who know more than I would have to say.
Maybe we can all learn something.
The light strikes could be from the disc blanked out in the middle of the primers. On blanking the firing pin travels to the rear. That's what breaks triggers. If the firing pin has enough rear travel and the tip comes out of any support area the disc gets inside the bolt.
That smith is a fucking idiot. I guarantee you that he just spun the barrel back on and torqued the barrel nut where it looked good without ever taking a measurement.
With over pressure like that from his fuck up that dude would be buying the barreled action from me for what I paid and reimbursing for his services.
With over pressure like that from his fuck up that dude would be buying the barreled action from me for what I paid and reimbursing for his services.
No, a 300 Savage will fit in a 30-06 case as the taper is exactly the same. The .308 stops about 1/2" out of battery because the shoulder, which is wider, hits the chamber wall of a 30-06.
Weird, ‘cuz you can’t swing a dead can on the internet without hitting someone that knew a guy that Accidentally fired a 308 in a 30-06 and extracted a straight walled case. That’s what I get for trusting internet lore.
And, seeing is believing. I just sized a 308 case I had lying around and dropped it into a M1 garand and- sure enough- it stops short
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sandwarrior- hlee, Not really the point of this thread- but this time the internet lore was correct.... a 308 will definitely fire in a 30-06- and you do extract a straight wall case. This one is not even debatable.... I'm not saying all of them will, but many production guns with the loose chambers easily accept a new 308 case. I think part of the problem is also undersized factory ammo... if you mic some factory ammo it will be well under spec. And in the little test that you did to see it it would chamber in your gun- a trip through a full length sizing die does not return it back down to its original size- it is still bigger.
It may have been designed to not be possible- but in the real world it is very possible.
It may have been designed to not be possible- but in the real world it is very possible.
IF this is the same barrel and it is seated fully into the receiver, this should not have changed anything. The assumption is that you HAVE shot this gun before without this happening? Have you seen brass being deformed or stressed too much in previous firings? The result here is, I believe, incredibly excessive headspace. I've experience this primer blowout, but not nearly as bad as yours, with .006" too much headspace and with factory loads (Meaning new brass, not reconditioned, not stressed in any previous firings). Some gunsmiths don't do well when it comes to headspace. Have you tried a different batch of ammo???? VERY RISKY! I would get a no-go gauge in any case; they're good to have! If the no-go shows correct headspace, you might very carefully try another batch of a different brand of ammo. Hornady brass is on the soft side. Your gunsmith should be your first stop however, but you need to learn ALL about headspace; it's vital!
You can shove as hard as you want. The .30-06 shoulder is .441" at it's shoulder. About 1/2" back, where both the .300 Savage and .308 Win.'s shoulders are, the chamber should be around .447". The .300 Savage has a shoulder of .447" The .308 Win has a shoulder of .454". That is roughly .007" over the size of the 30-06 chamber. Granted, those chambers are 'loose' to accomodate a wide variety of 30-06 cartridges, but not .007" loose at that point.
It is not even debatable. The .308 was made to NOT fit in anything close to a 30-06 chamber. Col. Townsend Whelen, did not foresee the problem. Unfortunately, there are too many people who don't, won't, or can't see the difference and the associated problems that are about to happen.
You could also measure the unfired cases in this batch to see if the cases are short. Don't know if you plan on realoding, but if you do I would get some good measuring tools from Brownell's or any other good supplier. A simple Wilson case gauge will tell you a lot; if the cases are too short shoulder to case head, you have definite headspace issues related to that batch of ammo. I see a lot of short cases with Lapua and Wolf in 6.5 Grendel (factory loads and loose brass). It's probably a safety feature (according to them); maybe it ensures feeding, but raises hell with cases and case life if you reload. Lapua cases come apart before the case head after a few firings in the Grendel and it is because the short cases stretch too much. When you resize and squeeze back all that stretch, again giving you the headspace issue, the case walls will soon fail. Eventually you will see a protrusion when you try to resize, almost like a small belt, something less than a belted magnum forward of the case head; the case has failed and will no longer chamber. Hope this isn't too much, but it IS very stasifying to now all you can about your gun and the ammo you fire. I forgot if you are shooting a semi or bolt, but if it is a semi, there's a whole other world of knowledge waiting for you if you're going to be successful. Enjoy and don't get blown up!
The “gunsmith” said he pulled the barrel off and Inspected everything. Said he didn’t see any signs of excessive pressure from the few rounds I did shoot. He said he also didn’t see anything on the borescope. Headspace is now “perfect” and it was off A LOT. He took the fault and admitted it.
Suppressor is also fine as I didn’t see anything wrong with it or any baffle strikes.
The gun shot great before the barrel was cut down. All I’ve had done to it is cut the barrel down from 26” to 10” crown and thread. Dropped it in a MDT chassis and those where the first 3 rounds.
I’ll get it back Friday and once the parts from
Savage arrive, I’ll rebuild the bolt and see what happens.
Worst case, I’ll replace the barrel sooner than expected...
Suppressor is also fine as I didn’t see anything wrong with it or any baffle strikes.
The gun shot great before the barrel was cut down. All I’ve had done to it is cut the barrel down from 26” to 10” crown and thread. Dropped it in a MDT chassis and those where the first 3 rounds.
I’ll get it back Friday and once the parts from
Savage arrive, I’ll rebuild the bolt and see what happens.
Worst case, I’ll replace the barrel sooner than expected...
Headspace is not a "perfect" thing. It varies with every different round you put in the gun. If your gun will not close on a no-go gauge that is .005" over SAAMI Max, it tells you that it will close on probably anything shorter, but how short? If it will close on a case that has been sized to .004" longer than SAAMI Max. then you know that with a round that measures exactly SAAMI Max. then you have a .004" headspace with THAT ROUND. The most consistent way to measure this is with a case gauge and I have found LE Wilson to be the best. They're cheap, stainless steel and you can see where every different batch of ammo falls. They will be different. The headspace is the distance between the bolt face and the case head as the round is fired. On Mike Bellm's T/C website, he sells an adapter for your dial indicator which when used with a case gauge of the Wilson type, will instantly tell you the relative length differences (shoulder to case head), between reloaded rounds or factory rounds, once fired resized loads, or reconditioned rounds. Suppose you bought ammo that has been reconditioned, brass once fired, and it was first fired in a gun with excessive headspace, then compressed way to back where it started out, you might encounter a problem like you have, with brass that has already been compromised by overstretching and overresizing. Headspace is the stepchild that is kept in the corner in the gunsmith world by many; it's always changing and frustrating at times. BTW, how do you know that a no-go gauge is .005", over SAAMI Max.? The gauge will tell you! Simple. If your gun does close on the no-go gauge, you have an issue with the gun itself; it shouldn't if it is within specs. Your gunsmith apparently isn't "seeing" anything wrong, but I hope this is based on good measurements, for your sake. Additionally with stainless steel cleaning media available today, fired, cleaned cases look better than factory; you'll never tell the difference by looking at it.
Had you ever shot this rifle before cutting it down? If so, what results did you get. I would hope your smith removed the barrel for cutting on a lathe rather than by hand. If he did, the head space problem lies with him. That's why I asked if you fired the rifle out of the box. Many shooters like shorter barrels on their rifles. Happen that a 26" tube with a 1:8 or paster twist with 140gr. bullets is a great accuracy combination.
Last question. Did you cut the original barrel or replace it with the shorter tube?
yes, shot it for two years no problem. once I finally got my can I wanted to cut this one down so the overall length wouldn't be stupid. this is the original factory barrel. just sliced off 6"
I've got a .308 in the exact same model and I had the barrel cut down from 26" to 16"... shoots great suppressed or not.
I've got a .308 in the exact same model and I had the barrel cut down from 26" to 16"... shoots great suppressed or not.
