Gunsmithing Cerakoat type oven:

Sean the Nailer

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  • May 20, 2006
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    Winnipeg, Mb.
    Searching the collective wisdom here:

    If I were to take a sheet metal box, insulate it, and install another sheet metal box inside it for cooking cerakoat, here are some questions.

    1) What insulation would be best? Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're talking about 300 degrees (?). Firewall? Pink-Glass? Something else?

    2) What would the best gap/space between the inner and outer wall? Minimal space, or should I include an "air-gap" as well?

    This will be electrically heated and controlled, so anything else that you all might want to add for this to work, please chime in.

    I've got my own ideas, but that doesn't mean that there isn't better out there.

    Thanks,

    Sean.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    I made a box oven a few years ago that I insulated with the stuff they use in ovens for ceramic pottery.

    Find a pottery supply house and they will have it along with the glue you need to apply it.

    I used two electric charcoal starters for heat, and a fan to avoid hot spots.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    I did what you are thinking. Had my brother bend up the metal. Used a 1" air gap in-between the walls. I welded it up. Used 1" thick dense fiber insulation that is normally used for pizza ovens in-between the walls. Oven is heated with a 220 range top burner and will get to 500 degrees in about 10 min.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Jason, I have been 'gleaning' as much as I can on the topic. That particular design doesn't fit well with what we're intending to do. As good as it is for what it does, we need different here. Thanks though, really.

    Mudbug, Ceramic pottery oven stuff, there you go, thanks for the suggestion. Add that to the mix. What kinda fan takes that heat?

    iHateCAtoo,
    wink.gif
    there's what I'm talking about! Your opinion? The one inch insulation is good, or would you go thicker? That isulation works great, or would you do different? Do you have a fan too?

    All:
    Is the outside safe to touch, or no?
    What do you use for a 'door gasket'?
    Do you get 'hot-spots'?
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    I'll try to find pics of what I built. I can't take new pics right now cuz it's in storage with other stuff while I'm doing some remodeling.

    But the fan motor is actually outside the box with an extended shaft inside the box with the fan on it.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Go to any Heating/AC shop and they can get you a sheet of 1" thick (or any thickness from 1/4 - 2 1/2") rigid foil back fiberglass insulation board. Get a roll of hi-temp reinforced foil tape while you are there.

    I wouldn't worry about a door gasket, as a LITTLE leakage won't hurt anything and you need a little ventilation anyway.

    I've designed and built some big powder coating ovens and that's what we always used.

    If designed properly, a fan would not be needed, unless you are building a large multi-gun oven.

    A reliable fan would have to be shaft driven with an external motor.

    PM me, I'll be glad to help.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Here's how to make a good one that would be commercial duty for $250 bucks or so, should be able to cook 3-5 barreled actions at once.....

    Buy one of these for $100 (you can't hardly build a box for that, and the door has a good design)....

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Stack-On-8-Gun-Security-Cabinet/11071333

    Strip out the guts, all you need is the outer shell. You will need to screw a small external latch on, as any internal latch will be a PITA.

    For the most even temps, you would lay it on it's SIDE with the door opening facing towards you and hinge at the bottom. Heat rises and any up and down hanging of guns will result in hotter at top and cooler at bottom, this will allow guns to be hung horizontally (use a rod in the muzzle) and will allow almost perfect evenness of temperature that the gun sees.

    Buy the 1" thick rigid fiberglass I described in the above post and line the inside of the box with the foil side facing inward. Glue it in with good silicone sealant. Use the foil tape to seal everything up and seal around the holes you're gonna cut later.

    Drill 3 each 1.5" diameter holes across the lid and through the fiberglass for 2 purposes, to shoot temps with a heat gun and give ventilation if needed. Place these holes about where the action would hang from the wires you'll hang from the ceiling of the box. I would also put a hole high in both ends for ventilation, might not need it, but it's easy to do.

    Make some little sheet metal sliding doors to cover these holes, by cutting a 2" circle of sheet metal and putting one screw at the top of the circle and screwing it to the door, then just slide to the side to open or close, or adjust to anything in between.

    Buy 4 of the $20 hot plates from Wal-Mart, cut 4 each 8" diameter holes evenly spaced across the bottom floor of the box.

    Cut 4 short angle iron legs to screw to the corners of the box to lift the floor of the box high enough to just barely clear the hot plates (so you can slide them in and out, under the box). The hot plates are 6.5 - 7" diameter, so the 8" holes will allow an air gap around them, this will allow the plates to last a long time and give a little fresh air for ventilation.

    The plates have thermostat control knobs on the front for temp adjustment. 4 of these should allow an easy 500 deg F. inside, so you will be able to turn them down to the center of their heat range for this oven.

    You can set a little wire rack inside for all the small parts.

    You can only plug 2 of these hotplates into the same 20A household circuit, so keep that in mind.

    This oven, unless you just want to be really cool looking, will work as well and give more even temps than any $1500 oven you can buy.

    The reason is the multiple hot plate thermostats will not cycle at the same time, unlike a single element which will kick on and off at a delta temp of usually 25 deg. And you can adjust the 2 center ones a little cooler than the ends, if needed, etc.

    I think handling the pre-cooked painted guns horizontally with an aluminum muzzle rod will be much easier than up and down hanging.

    You could actually make a shelf to rest the muzzle rod on one end, so you wouldn't have to mess with a wire on that end.

    Whew, that was a mouthful! Hope I helped you a little, if it's not what you need, maybe there is an idea or two you can use, anyway!

    Edit: It would probably be easier to cut the holes in the steel safe before you put in the insulation and cut the insulation when you put it in later.

    Also, if you don't like the hotplates, you could use an electric element inside, but it wouldn't work as well, nor be as simple, and I like simple stuff!
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Mudbug and Hellbender,

    Thank you for this so far. And yes, that last description is quite close to what I have in mind. Also, it works out well with what we've amassed so far. We've a steel box (for the outer shell) some pieces of galvanized steel to be made into the inner shell, and we got two toaster ovens, 1-4 rod and 1-2 rod to use as heat sources.

    20.00 for all the steel, and 25.00 total for the ovens. So we're into this for 45.00 so far. Want the insulation, fan, and I'm not sure what else yet. I'll put some pics up tomorrow too, if anyone's interested.

    Thanks for the input, a lot. Ya never know when you're missing the obvious, and that is what I'm trying to avoid beforehand.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">iHateCAtoo,
    wink.gif
    there's what I'm talking about! Your opinion? The one inch insulation is good, or would you go thicker? That isulation works great, or would you do different? Do you have a fan too?

    All:
    Is the outside safe to touch, or no?
    What do you use for a 'door gasket'?
    Do you get 'hot-spots'? </div></div>

    Sean the 1" stuff is plenty. I can touch the outside and it's cool to the touch, no chance of burning ones self. I didn't use a door gasket, it doesn’t really need it. I built the box with the thought of a fan but found I didn't need that either and have not experienced any hot spots. I checked with several home oven manufactures and most won't cycle a circulation fan on unless the temp is above 350 for extended periods of time. I never had an issue and never went back to put the fan in.

    My box is 50x15x15 and the single 220 burner is plenty. I've used a thermal coupler to cycle the temp and this worked very well but I found it was just as easy to turn the knob to set the temp and the oven would hold that temp with no fluctuation
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Sean...

    You have to be careful with the toaster ovens, as many just have the little ceramic rods that are actually a type of radiant heater, not a resistance coil heater, they will heat what they "see" directly very well, but will have cold spots everywhere else.

    They don't heat an area, they only heat what they directly face.

    So if you use them, you will have to pretty well surround the part, at a minimum 2 sides and have continuous, uninterrupted lengths.

    A highly reflective inner surface on the oven would help, but the highly reflective surface is hard to keep that way in any type of painting oven.

    You need to do a little research on the radiant heaters in an oven of this type, as it will be tricky to get even heat. Lighter, more reflective colors will absorb less heat than darker colors. As an example, put a white part and a black part in one of the toaster ovens and shoot the temps, there may be as much as 50-75 deg difference. A normal oven with resistance heaters will give the same temps on both parts.

    Note the toaster ovens don't have ANY insulation in them?? Because they only heat the food, nothing else gets very hot.

    Like getting a sunburn, you will get hot only on the sunny side!

    You really don't need an inner oven wall with the aluminum foil faced insulation, just make the outer box and face it with the foil faced insulation.

    If using radiant heat, you really won't need anything thicker than 1/4" thickness.

    A resistance heater will work much better in your situation.

    I don't want to be a kill joy, and you CAN make the radiant rods work, just think about what the rods can "see" and be careful not to shade anything, also use a little aluminum reflector behind them, if possible.

    If you're thinking of placing the toaster ovens to the sides or underneath and "pumping" hot air from them into the oven, it will NOT work! Just to save you some time!
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    All great info guys.

    As to the 'radiant heat' think, I didn't know that. I was about to start cutting. I'll do a 'test run' of the toaster oven's first. The rods are glowing red when it's on, so I figured I'd move them.

    Lemme check this out.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Sean,

    If you remove the ceramic heating rods and place them IN the oven, you can make them work, but you can't just blow air through the toaster oven and expect to heat the AIR, as that won't work well.

    I didn't know if I made myself clear about that.

    Some older toaster ovens actually had resistance heating elements in them, though, and that would work.

    Good luck and let us know how it works out.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    Well guys, I'm impressed with the info and help being offered. That EXACTLY is what makes this place rock!

    I'm now in the market for a PID controller, and searching for one cheap. Bear with me, this is get'n interest'n.
     
    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    heres' what I've been using for about 8 years. I've done 100's of guns and parts in this thing, so it's paid for its self many times over.

    I built a wooden box 48" long x 10" wide x 8" deep. Line all sides with drywall and then lined all that with sheet metal flashing. Went to Walmart got a toster oven took it apart. Put the ceramic elements in the bottom and ran wires back around to the control. I then ran the temp sensor into the box which actually works to maintain the temp at a steady 300 degrees.

    I use brass rods to support barreled actions and for small parts I use a piece of tile. When I was building my oven, I wanted a locker, but none could be found.




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    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    flatlander...

    That's interesting, as you are actually heating the aluminum around the radiant elements and making the aluminum radiate heat into the box. I've never heard of it done that way. Sounds like it works good!

    I have a generator just like yours, too!

    (But I try not to cook anything on the gas tank!)
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    Re: Cerakoat type oven:

    I koow this is late but the insulation to use in any oven is Kao-Wool, Ceramic Fiber Blaket. It comes from 1/8" to 2" thick amd 24" wide. The heat transfer for 1" nwould be neel. In other words with a 1" layer and a inside temp of 300deg you could still put your hand on it. Wou will need to go to a Refractory supply of contractor to get it.