I've been shooting .308 for FTR for a long time. A buddy and I are starting to dip our toes into PRS, and are both starting with 6.5 CM. While it seems that most are shooting 140-147 gr bullets, I'm curious how folks feel about the 120-130gr options. In the scenario where reduced disruption to the gun and recoil management are so critical, I'm tempted to try the 123 or 130 eld-m. I realize there are trade offs in terms of wind deflection, but I'd love to herar your thoughts on this.
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Range Report choosing a bullet for 6.5 CM
- Thread starter mpwolf
- Start date
142gr. SMK's shoot extremely well out of my rifle and a buddy of mine's rifle as well, but your twist rate will be a major factor in what will work best for you. Do you already have the rifle?
I’m in the same boat. I’m shooting 140’s but wanting to try lighter for the next barrel. I’m leaning towards the 123 custom comps. I can’t seen to find the 130 eld’s in bulk anywhere, otherwise I’d be leaning that route.
I don't notice much recoil difference between 130 hybrids @ 2950 and 147's @ 2750. The 147's still have a bit less wind drift. The ELD's are very easy to get shooting, as are hybrids. Either are a good choice. I have found the 120 class bullets to lack performance wind drift wise compared to the 130+.
If you have the twist to stabilize them, I would have to agree with lte82. I would prefer the added stability over the minimal, if any, addition in recoil between the different bullet weights.
We way to often get screwed up with the BC number in the boxes..
First I think it is a mistake to run numbers based on the MAX distance one is planning on shooting.. A far more effective strategy is to choose a bullet that is best in the categories for the AVERAGE distances you are shooting. Personally I have been to many PRS type matches where have some super long shots 1K plus, yet the average shot is probably 450-550ish, with the lions share being under 700-- So for the sake of the discussion, even if you choose something that had superior performance inside of 800 your'd be doing well. Heck, other than recoil, because our average distances are much less than we often think, i's the major reason the 6br variants do so well even with lower BCs than that of the 140'd-147s.
I'll run though examples to show what I mean:
My 24" barrel agrees fairly close with your numbers. Here is what I am seeing with the 147, 140, 130 and 123. Note that the new A-tip might change up things. Granted, someone might be running 147 faster in a longer barrel or run even hotter, but then should the 140s 130s etc..
It is going to be up to where/what the shooter is shooing to some degree as to what bullet has less drop/wind for he majority of their shots. Look at what is happening around 600 yards..
Note that Hornady's ELD BC # are rated at Mach 2.25 (depending on conditions), means if you're running around 2700, you'll be in a lower BC band much faster!
@Swoodhouse19
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I have shot a ton of the 123 scenars. Several thousand anyway. .264 G7 @ 2950 (I couldnt push them a lot faster accurately), and plenty of 147s @ 2770, well over 3000 of them. The difference is huge at 1000, and even very noticeable at 500. I'll agree picking a bullet for the average target is the best idea, and that if wind isn't present or is at least consistent it isnt much of a factor, but if you are dealing with ranges that have swirling or winds that change/fishtail a lot, then BC is an advantage. Attached is a 147 vs 123.
Also, the little 6mm / 105 H out performs the 6.5 creed / 123 with much less recoil. .285 G7 @ 3000 fps (in my gun) vs .264 @ 2950 (in my gun as well). If the wind is steady or calm it doesnt make a difference, but if it gets switchy I'd rather take the one with better ballistics.
Also, the little 6mm / 105 H out performs the 6.5 creed / 123 with much less recoil. .285 G7 @ 3000 fps (in my gun) vs .264 @ 2950 (in my gun as well). If the wind is steady or calm it doesnt make a difference, but if it gets switchy I'd rather take the one with better ballistics.
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__ first what 105 6mm is running .285g7? My Bergers were lower than that, but my 115's are .301G7 so ya, a 6 creed going 3000 or 3050 is a different thing than a 6mm BR class speeds, I mentioned.
The entire point being, if one one is looking for the real best bullet for the job, there are more to the numbers than the BC on the BOX or jumping immediately to the 1K performance numbers..
Again - if you average wind is 10.. and you are shooting only 1K targets great.. You're also unlucky on the 123s and running fast with the 147s so ya, your math is different. It is strange however, that your same barrel that is 50fps faster than mine with 147s; is 100 fps slower than my 123s. The lack of 150fps and the speed delta is a LOT. Of course, if one can't get the speed to work with the delta high enough, one should pick another bullet.
You can see it in the charts I put out at 5mph as well.. yep I am in the west and we do get big winds but on average it is about 4-6 mph.. some days over 30.. so sure by your speed values and your 10mph, the 147 will have a .2mil wind advantage at 500..
I am also comparing the same exact barrel - I didn't put either of my 6mms in their because different barrels.. I am not saying BC is NOT an advantage -- but it needs to work with speed and a large speed delta can tip the scales.
I see guys all the time on RPRs or Tikkas running 147s ultra slow.. No way are they getting the advertised mach 2.25 BC, they just aren't..
Lastly there is a big recoil difference between a 147 and a 123 as there is from a 123 6.5 and a 105 6mm..
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The latest lot of 105 Hybrids I got are truing up to .285 in both of my 6's, and my buddies 6's as well. My 108 bergers are getting .268-270. And yea, my 115 dtacs were truing up at .305ish too.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong on any of your comments, I'm just saying what my experience has been with the different classes of bullets in the 6.5s. The form factors for the 130 hybrid and 147 ELD are simply significantly higher than any of the 120 class bullets, which gives them an inherent advantage.
I personally think getting caught up in the BC's, recoil minimization, etc is something everyone does when they first start shooting, and that's ok. It's great to have so many choices. The key to it all is to run the numbers with *your* data, and see what makes the most sense to you.
Pretty much a wash to me. The 115s definitely handle the wind better but the 105s group smaller at distance.
No argument, just a bit more food for thought for thoughts dropping in on this thread, how this relates to positional shooting and why it is so important to understand the complete picture. (because the OP specifically mentioned PRS).
Wind in perspective:
Really what is happening, is that we know what our hold is, what we don't know is the winds uncertainty, so the correct way to look at this is not how we typically communicate when looking at the charts. The difference really isn't .4mil, but rather the difference in the wind uncertainty for each. For instance lets stay the wind is bouncing between 10 and 12 mph.
(yes we can start making all kinds of cases, but my hope here is that it turns on a light for someone. Sure we can increase the wind uncertainly, but also, remember in my personal case where I am actually generating 150fps greater speed difference..)
Wobble:
Now, if one of these, allowed the shooter to create a situation were they might reduce the wobble by greater than .1mil at ALL distances we have yet another thing to consider. Wobble tends to be circular so a couple of 1/10s of wobble, creates a much larger CE zone than a couple 1/10s horizontal of wind.
I don't want to get into the "free-recoil" debate. But in general, the guns shoot better than we do. The more of "us" we impart into the gun the worse they tend to shoot.
I think it is always better to be able to see the short range impact and just getting too old to want to carry some of the crazy heavy guns I have seen at the top of the scale. That leaves me with one choice and that is to manage the recoil. That said, there is a huge difference between a light load on the stock & comb and a heavily pressed rifle. Soon as we start leaning into our guns we impart the wobble. The wobble can be worse than the difference between the BC numbers. I am sure anyone who has shot a lot of positional shooting, can attest to just how small the load window is between no-wobble and too much. So weight and the recoil of the round all can't get taken out of the mix if you are seriously looking at the full picture.
Is a few 1/10s of semi-predictable wind (wind in the same general direction) easier to deal with, or is unpredictable wobble that creates a much great CEP?
Edit to add: CE/Circular Error; CEP/Circular Error of Probability
Wind in perspective:
1,000 yards, 10 mph 90° wind at 29.9inHg (most of use don't shoot on the beach so that makes a bit of difference.). Using the much slower 123 number of 2950 and the bit faster of the 147 @ 2750 than "I" am getting for the example, to make the wind difference between the bullets appear greater.
147 = 1.8R
123 = 2.2R
The 10 mph wind difference looks scary at 1000 yards.. seems like a no brainer, but is it?Really what is happening, is that we know what our hold is, what we don't know is the winds uncertainty, so the correct way to look at this is not how we typically communicate when looking at the charts. The difference really isn't .4mil, but rather the difference in the wind uncertainty for each. For instance lets stay the wind is bouncing between 10 and 12 mph.
1,000 yards, 12 mph 90° wind
147 = 2.1R a .3 mil uncertainly
123 = 2.6R a .4 mil uncertainty
The difference between these is only .1mil uncertainly at 1000y - less at the average PRS distances(yes we can start making all kinds of cases, but my hope here is that it turns on a light for someone. Sure we can increase the wind uncertainly, but also, remember in my personal case where I am actually generating 150fps greater speed difference..)
Wobble:
Now, if one of these, allowed the shooter to create a situation were they might reduce the wobble by greater than .1mil at ALL distances we have yet another thing to consider. Wobble tends to be circular so a couple of 1/10s of wobble, creates a much larger CE zone than a couple 1/10s horizontal of wind.
I don't want to get into the "free-recoil" debate. But in general, the guns shoot better than we do. The more of "us" we impart into the gun the worse they tend to shoot.
I think it is always better to be able to see the short range impact and just getting too old to want to carry some of the crazy heavy guns I have seen at the top of the scale. That leaves me with one choice and that is to manage the recoil. That said, there is a huge difference between a light load on the stock & comb and a heavily pressed rifle. Soon as we start leaning into our guns we impart the wobble. The wobble can be worse than the difference between the BC numbers. I am sure anyone who has shot a lot of positional shooting, can attest to just how small the load window is between no-wobble and too much. So weight and the recoil of the round all can't get taken out of the mix if you are seriously looking at the full picture.
Is a few 1/10s of semi-predictable wind (wind in the same general direction) easier to deal with, or is unpredictable wobble that creates a much great CEP?
Edit to add: CE/Circular Error; CEP/Circular Error of Probability
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Some great stuff by Diver here. I personally highly rate both the 123 and 139 scenars, these are not the highest BC slickest bullets out there but man they tend to shoot accurately easily. I also use 130 berger vld but the scenars are better to me. Going to give the 140 RDF a try soon I think see how they go out to 1500m in my 6.5x47L. Reports seem to be all over the place from shot gun groups to one hole!!! only one way to see I spose is try some myself.
Gents, I really appreciate all the time and thought you have put into your responses. The more I think about it, the more I think the bullet I choose to start with is really unimportant. What is important is to develop a good solid load, and go shoot. I’ve been shooting fclass for a long time. I know all about loading super accurate ammo, but my positional skills are non-existent. I’ll gain far more in the beginning by shooting and learning the game, then I will by chasing the last bc points.
Bullet technology has come a long way. There are some bullets out there that are easy to tune. In my experience, the Berger Hybrids and Hornady ELD in just about any weight will shoot.
I'm not a fan of the Nosler offerings.
I'm not a fan of the Nosler offerings.
I think the starting point for anyone shooting 6.5cm is the berger 140 hybrid or the 140 Hornady eld. Myself....I prefer the 130 OTM just because I like to play with gas guns some and when I was also shooting 260rem they were a little friendlier OAL.
I wanted so badly for them to, but they just won't group.
+1 on Berger hybrids and when you can fine them the Norma golden targets are accurate also.
Not to thread jack, but what’s your load? I’m gonna work up something this weekend with either h4350 or rl16. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Norma is out in my book. After what RUAG did to PRIME I’d be damned if I supported them.
Same here. I'm finishing out my Norma 130's and not buying any more.
Shooting support side from compromised position on the clock, you won’t be able to tell the difference
Go with whatever gives you confidence, and cheats wind/DA changes the best at the ranges you’ll encounter most.
Go with whatever gives you confidence, and cheats wind/DA changes the best at the ranges you’ll encounter most.
I was unaware of this situation. With that info I suppose Norma is best not supported...
In my experience every load has a couple nodes. For the H4350 there is one around 41 grains and 42.5 for the RL16 there is one around the 41 mark and the 43 mark. Pros and cons to both. Both stable and produce good numbers and groups. Better velocity with RL16 without hitting pressure. H4350 tends to spike once you get close to pressure and I don't like running that hard. RL16 is dirty and you have to stay in front of the carbon build up or you will get a carbon ring. I am currently running 42.7 of RL16 and getting 2897 with SDs in 2-3 and ES of 7, sub 1/4" groups at 100. Just finished this load and only have a hand full at distance but it did true at a higher BC (so far) then advertised, right now at .328. My last barrel trued at .314. This barrel is a 28" Shilen 1-8 twist.
FWIW, my barrel is at the end. Im now jumping 140 hybrids .125 at 2735 with 40.5g H4350, lapua brass. Still holding .5 moa. My experience is that the bergers will shoot tighter at 800 plus than the ELDM. Im speaking from around 15,000 rounds of 6.5 cm out the end of many barrels.
Just my experience.
Just my experience.
Pretty tough to beat the 142smk’s.
Shoot very well and are very friendly to work out a load with.
I also like 140 and 147ELD-M’s.
The 130 TSMK test I did was very promising and I hear good things about the 130ELD-M’s.
I don’t focus on the closer ranges shooting so I generally run heavy for caliber.
Shoot very well and are very friendly to work out a load with.
I also like 140 and 147ELD-M’s.
The 130 TSMK test I did was very promising and I hear good things about the 130ELD-M’s.
I don’t focus on the closer ranges shooting so I generally run heavy for caliber.
.025 jump. I start all SMKs there (.025) and the 142s seem to like it. But all the various SMKs I run in 6 different rifles all shoot from .015 to .040.
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