Gunsmithing Chuck shopping

[jonaddis84]

Want to get a new quality 4-jaw for my Clausing. Its a D1-4 mount, and I want it to be direct mount for length concerns. Seems theres only about two choices out there that Im finding, Gator or Bison. I know the Bison are good to go. Anyone have any experience with the Gators? They are about $200 cheaper, and if theyre the same quality that would be nice.

Second question is size, torn between 8 and 10". Id like the extra weight of the 10", and I dont mind lifting it up there. My hope would be that the extra weight would keep vibration down when a barrel is off center slightly. However, Im not sure if it would work against me since the larger jaws would be off center also, possibly causing vibration in itself.

Last, do you think the only way Im going to do any kind of machining on the jaws is with EDM? Im thinking a carbide end mill wont touch them, but maybe someone has tried?

Thanks

 

[Red_SC]

Granted you have more experience than I do, but I'll throw in my two cents. I had an Encore barrel in my 10" Bison yesterday, the welded lug caused one jaw to be offset. I could feel it, particularly if I ran the rpm up some, but it wasn't a problem. Your Clausing may be heavier than my South Bend Fourteen as well. Kinda overkill for barrel work though.

 

[Clark]

These days instead of using the 4 jaw chuck to dial in a barrel, I put it in the set thru 6 jaw and dial in the chuck itself.
I never have to change chucks.

Just be sure to get a 6 jaw big enough for the size of barrel vise bushings you make, or you may wind up swapping chucks again.

 

[STR]

These days instead of using the 4 jaw chuck to dial in a barrel, I put it in the set thru 6 jaw and dial in the chuck itself.
I never have to change chucks.

Just be sure to get a 6 jaw big enough for the size of barrel vise bushings you make, or you may wind up swapping chucks again.

I do the same with same thing with a 6 jaw Buck. Works great.

 

[300sniper]

Unless you are chucking up something not round, a 6 jaw set-true is awesome! even if you use it as a front spider, using a ring of #4 copper wire in the jaws to allow the barrel to gimble works great. set your chuck pressure and it stays the same no matter what the adjustment is.

 

[ugsly]

Unless you are chucking up something not round, a 6 jaw set-true is awesome! even if you use it as a front spider, using a ring of #4 copper wire in the jaws to allow the barrel to gimble works great. set your chuck pressure and it stays the same no matter what the adjustment is.

Same thing I do, running a Bison 6 jaw set-true. I take the bison off everynight though and set it next to my bed so I can sleep with it, thats how much I like it. Not very often do I take it off to put on the 4 jaw.

Casey

 

[Clark]

I take the bison off everynight though and set it next to my bed so I can sleep with it, thats how much I like it.

Be sure to get at least 1.5" through hole.

 

[jonaddis84]

Interesting, glad I posted this, wouldn't have thought of doing that... I would think adjusting the entire chuck off center would make for some good vibrations, is that the case? I like to spin it 8-1200rpm when turning with carbide.

 

[ugsly]

Interesting, glad I posted this, wouldn't have thought of doing that... I would think adjusting the entire chuck off center would make for some good vibrations, is that the case? I like to spin it 8-1200rpm when turning with carbide.

Im just running a G4003 lathe so its nothing thats real heavy weight wise. That being said I do get some slight vibration at 1000 RPM but I believe its due to the outbore spider porition running all cattywampus when you have your workpiece dialed in to cut,crown,chamber or whatever work your doing on your cutting end. If I get a slight vibration then I just run the speed down to 600-800 rpm range.

Casey

 

[Straight Shooter]

We use a spider for most barrel work. Our contact points are sharpened up to 1/8 contact points to help keep from bending and stressing the barrel.

 

[Red_SC]

Unless you are chucking up something not round, a 6 jaw set-true is awesome! even if you use it as a front spider, using a ring of #4 copper wire in the jaws to allow the barrel to gimble works great. set your chuck pressure and it stays the same no matter what the adjustment is.

Dumb question I'm sure, but what is the advantage of a set-true 6 jaw over a 3 jaw, more even clamping force? I have a 3 jaw set-true Buck chuck, but hadn't really thought about using it for dialing in a barrel.

 

[jonaddis84]

Guys running the 6jaw setup, how wide is your chuck from the spindle to the outside of the jaws? My Pratt Burnerd 3jaw is a set true and it requires having the mounting plate, which makes it almost an inch wider than say my direct mount 4jaw. Wasnt sure if they make them in set true and direct mount?

 

[NXS338]

You asked about gator chucks, they are made in china.....not saying thats bad but the prices seem to be a overpriced. I have a 3 jaw from Gator that I ended up with and I dont see an increase in quality. They seem to be polished up a little nicer but it is simply cosmetic in my opinion and not worth extra cost over what you can get from Enco or Grizzly at a much more economical price.

 

[jonaddis84]

I thought they were made in France or Italy or something? Maybe that's just where they are headquartered?

 

[jkohler]

Gator chucks are made in China but I've Hurd the guy over them was the man in charge at bison. There some talk on practical machinist that the gators are the same design as the bison and the quality is very good or as good as a bison chuck.

 

[jonaddis84]

I see now they are made in the big C, seems they are polish designed, and USA managed/warranted now. Might just snag the bison grizzly sells, looks like a Damn good price on it

 

[NXS338]

I see now they are made in the big C, seems they are polish designed, and USA managed/warranted now. Might just snag the bison grizzly sells, looks like a Damn good price on it

Nothing is designed in China, but they can copy anything. I believe Bison chucks are made in poland and hate to say it but that part of the world has had some of the finest craftsman who build quality stuff. Again my Gator is no better than my Grizzly that came with my lathe, they just took a little extra time to break the edges and made it look pretty and everything smooth. After I cleaned up the Grizzly you can't tell them apart in looks, function or accuracy.

 

[jkohler]

Enco has a 20% off code and free shipping today. I think there 10 inch bison runs 990 or so. With 20% off that's not to bad

 

[jonaddis84]

I got that email, only problem is it seems they sell the solid jaw models, I really want removable face jaws so I can get some holes cut in them like gradous' setup.

....or maybe I'm confusing my brands here, I might be thinking of gator now that makes solid and removable face jaws. Who knows, been sitting staring at my phone in Austin airport for 6 hours now, hallucinations setting in

 

[jkohler]

They have the reversible jaws I just look the 10 inch with 2.5 hole is 996

 

[jonaddis84]

it looks like grizzly sells the same 8" bison as Enco for $495, enco is still $611 after 20%. Might be $100 shipping, but that's also before any sh discount from grizzly also.

Still can't decide on 8 or 10", 37 vs 61 lbs respectively. Thinking it's going to be a wash on vibrations, and the 10" might be harder on the motor and vfd in the long run.

 

[300sniper]

You all are really spinning 1200 rpm while doing barrel work on a manual machine? I'll be real honest and say my manual machine hasn't seen over 450 rpm in I don't know how long. 450 for everything and 300 for threading.

 

[300sniper]

I bought my Bison set-tru with backing D1-4 mount for what I thought was a steal used on ebay. Then I saw the new Grizzly price for them was less

 

[jkohler]

You all are really spinning 1200 rpm while doing barrel work on a manual machine? I'll be real honest and say my manual machine hasn't seen over 450 rpm in I don't know how long. 450 for everything and 300 for threading.

I run my big grizzly at just shy of 400 for turning most the time and just over 200 for threading. Some times I may go up to 700 for cutting my crowns.

 

[300sniper]

Dumb question I'm sure, but what is the advantage of a set-true 6 jaw over a 3 jaw, more even clamping force? I have a 3 jaw set-true Buck chuck, but hadn't really thought about using it for dialing in a barrel.

Try the 3 jaw since you have it. Maybe it'll work just fine.

 

[Clark]

I have the cheapest one at the top of the page:
Buy 6 Jaw Chuck from UseEnco

 

[STR]

Try the 3 jaw since you have it. Maybe it'll work just fine.

Exactly what I would try first.

 

[jonaddis84]

300, What inserts are you using at that low RPM? Are they lasting if carbide?

I just picked up some new iscar 907 for my go to turning tool and I can't believe the improvement in finish. I can't say I've tried them at lower rpm, but they sure leave an amazing finish at 800. I've never had an issue with high rpm shifting the barrel, as I always check my bore alignment after threading the tenon. My solid carbide boring tool I use for crowning I have no choice but to run fast with such a sharp point, it just sucks at low rpm.

I'll admit that I don't know Jack about picking inserts, that shit might as well be in Chinese, there's just too many to pick from. So I'm always up for hearing what other guys are using on manual machines and having success.

I'd really love to find a grade that will work for me in a lay down threading insert. I'm relegated to the AR Warner stand up right now, and it works great (example below), but it's so wide compared to a lay down which sucks for muzzle threading. Somebody recommended me the shars, and I tried it, but I can't get a good finish anywhere from the 70 he said he runs it all the way up to 540 which I thought would help being a carbide insert.

 

[diverdon]

http://www.buckchuckusa.com/files/BC_catalog.pdf I have not used the brands you mention but I always liked Buck Chucks. However I am not a gunsmith.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Guys running the 6jaw setup, how wide is your chuck from the spindle to the outside of the jaws? My Pratt Burnerd 3jaw is a set true and it requires having the mounting plate, which makes it almost an inch wider than say my direct mount 4jaw. Wasnt sure if they make them in set true and direct mount?

I am running a set tru 3 jaw for chambering and threading, it's on a Hardinge. It does make it a little long for doing muzzles on shorter barrels, but a 6" extension threaded internally to match receiver threads works pretty good to extend the barrel. When I thread and chamber, I just leave the barrel long, plenty of length for the aft spider to pick up the barrel.





With this lathe, I can thread at 500 rpm, but usually am about 300-350, and am getting good quality, using ISCAR full profile inserts, I'll get the number off them next time I am in the shop. I have some HS Warner and Grizzly tools also, like the finish on those, but as you said, can't thread right up to a shoulder with those. I using HS tool to crown with, but grind that myself. I recently bought a KO Lee tool grinder, when I find time, I am going to play with that some, maybe make a reamer or two with that. It will/may/should come in handy for making more consistent bits for odd jobs.

FWIW, on chambering, I have lately found that if I set up the muzzle end to run within .002 on the OD, as close to the spider as I can indicate, takes just a second on the aft spider, when I check the breech end in the set tru, it's very close, like in the tenths. Also, this removes most of the worry with putting a kink in the barrel and I don't have to cut up or alter a perfectly good set of jaws. The wire trick works, but I don't use it, I find I get less chatter and better finish by using the whole length of the chuck ( you know, like it was designed???) to hold the work piece. With the quality of the barrels I get these days, the ID is running pretty true to the OD. Having seen how Bartlein does that, it makes sense why it does.

 

[jkohler]

300, What inserts are you using at that low RPM? Are they lasting

I've been using carmex lay down er16 a60 with bxc coating for threading. The bxc is for slower speed manual lathe. I've been getting better results than with the warner thread tooling.

 

[Gene Poole]

300, What inserts are you using at that low RPM? Are they lasting

I've been using carmex lay down er16 a60 with bxc coating for threading. The bxc is for slower speed manual lathe. I've been getting better results than with the warner thread tooling.

I like Enco because you can buy them already chipped. Saves me a lot of time.

Buy 11IRA60BXC Carmex Internal Carbide Laydown Threading Inserts from UseEnco

Seriously, I don't have any problem with carbide threading inserts at low speed. If someone made a lay-down HSS for threading, I'd probably try it, but I'm betting the reason they don't is that with that little bitty point, it'd be good for about 3 or 4 passes, then need sharpening, and how would you sharpen a lay-down insert?

If I want to use HSS, I just grind one from a part-off tool and polish the cutting edges with a diamond wheel or hone with a stone. I use a jewelers loupe and a stone to hone the flat to the desired width:

If you want to get closer to the shoulder, just grind it with a longer flat on the left (as seen facing the tool in the picture above).

 

[bohem]

Jon, I sent you an email, it was getting a little lengthy for a post.

300, I'm looking forward to seeing your 6/45 running, that machine makes me quite jealous.

 

[Straight Shooter]

300, What inserts are you using at that low RPM? Are they lasting if carbide?

I just picked up some new iscar 907 for my go to turning tool and I can't believe the improvement in finish. I can't say I've tried them at lower rpm, but they sure leave an amazing finish at 800. I've never had an issue with high rpm shifting the barrel, as I always check my bore alignment after threading the tenon. My solid carbide boring tool I use for crowning I have no choice but to run fast with such a sharp point, it just sucks at low rpm.

I'll admit that I don't know Jack about picking inserts, that shit might as well be in Chinese, there's just too many to pick from. So I'm always up for hearing what other guys are using on manual machines and having success.

I'd really love to find a grade that will work for me in a lay down threading insert. I'm relegated to the AR Warner stand up right now, and it works great (example below), but it's so wide compared to a lay down which sucks for muzzle threading. Somebody recommended me the shars, and I tried it, but I can't get a good finish anywhere from the 70 he said he runs it all the way up to 540 which I thought would help being a carbide insert.

On a regular action, do you use this much thread relief?

 

[jonaddis84]

No that's only for an integral lug. And it didn't start that wide, just happened that I had to go almost a whole extra revolution to time the barrel to 12:00 position, so the relief ended up wider.

Here is one for a rebel style without integral lug.

These turned out ok...

 

[Straight Shooter]

Here is how I do mine. I use the Shars inserts. I use the little 4 jaw spider I posted earlier.

 

[jonaddis84]

Looks good. I used to do my threads that way, but I was ruining too many inserts by going a cunthair too far and digging threads at full depth for a few degrees. These perform the same and I can thread at 300-500rpm without a problem, so I dont have to wait a half hour for the thread dial haha. On a CNC, no question I would thread without a relief. Thousand ways to skin the same cat I guess.

 

[Straight Shooter]

A 3 sided thread cutter last us about a year. For us, it takes what it takes. I won't let the clock dictate the work.

Are you still looking for a new 4 jaw for barrel work? For a chambering chuck, if I had money to blow, I would like to try Straight Shot Gunsmithing's Tru Bore Alignment System. I would like a more secure hold than what we currently have. I like the idea of a collet but with the ability to dial it in the same way I do now.

 

[jasonk]

jonaddis84, you have a link to the thread tool and iscar bits you use?

 

[jonaddis84]

jonaddis84, you have a link to the thread tool and iscar bits you use?

Threading tool:
Arthur R. Warner Co. | Specialists in High Speed Steel - Kit #18 1/2 inch Threader NV

Ill update with the turning, cant remember it offhand

 

[jonaddis84]

Well glad I held off. The place I bought my lathe from said they had a few chucks for me to look at, just haven't found the time to go back up there. Meet him today and he had a nice selection, a Pratt Burnerd, older Buck, and a brand new Emco Meier off a south bend solid steel from 20 years ago he said.

I chose the Emco Meier (sp?) due to being direct mount and steel, seems like a super nice chuck especially for $250. Stuck it on and measured less than .0005" runout on the od and no vibration.

Also got a 5/8" ball bearing Jacob's, Rohm cnc live center, and an Albrecht (sp?) keyless chuck for an extra $150.

Now to decide whether to EDM the jaws...

 

[Red_SC]

Score!

 

[jukyu-juichi]

I chose the Emco Meier (sp?) due to being direct mount and steel, seems like a super nice chuck especially for $250. Stuck it on and measured less than .0005" runout on the od and no vibration.

Good choice on the 4-jaw. I see several folks using 6-jaw, but they are better served for thin wall tubing, IMO. A good 4-jaw is the way to go, as you will always get low runout when adjusted properly. Nice looking NOS chuck! Congrats!

 

[Kebo57]

I just got my new TBAS from Straight Shot a week ago. Yes it's pricey but it is a wonderful piece of kit. It does stick out further from the spindle than the 4 jaw I've been running but I only use an outboard spider to keep the outer end of the barrel captured.

 

[diverdon]

John, I hope you know that you can get a few sets of aluminum top jaws for when you need to machine the top jaws.

 

[jonaddis84]

Talking inserts...

I decided to take advantage of Enco 20% off, free shipping, and ability to buy one insert at a time. Tried out the Iscar 908 partial profile and 16tpi full profile as well as a far nicer (than shars) Carmex 3/4" holder. So far I'm loving them over the AR Warner hss tool. Not saying the AR isn't good, just too wide and they get trashed easily.

This is with the full profile 16tpi @ 370rpm, pretty deep cuts in comparison to hss to make it cut well. Still using viper venom for now.

And 24tpi with partial profile (just playing, not actually a muzzle)

 

[bptactical]

Beautiful threads!

I have a 10" Pratt & Burned 4 jaw and a 8" Atlas 4 jaw I will run depending on what I am turning but the Atlas gets the majority of the work.

 

[ridgeway]

Picked up a very nice Bison 6-1/4" Set Tru 3 Jaw off eBay with a D1-4 back plate. Got it for $450 plus $12 shipping! Its used and in great condition. This one was made in Poland. I tore it all down and cleaned and lubed it. Got it all set up and dialed in. Dialing it in was quick and super easy. The wonderful thing is, you can dial it down to a tenth no problem!

 

[jhunter]

Has anything changed over the past 10 years? I’m looking at the Bison Set-Tru 8” 6 jaw

 

[Hoggr9]

I an not a machinist butnmy last job we ran a few Haas CNC machines for production runs in Delrin, steel, alum, stainless. I know the place we bought cutting tools from was good about bringing us inserts to try before we purchased a large quantity. And they were a big help in reducing run times and improving finish quality. May be worth asking your suppliers for recommendatiins dep3nding in your needs.