CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

[ORD]

There have been some questions/concerns/issues re: the Vintage Sniper Rifle (VSR) Matches and compliance with the rules/regs on approved rifles, equipment/optics, modifications.

Here is a link to the 2011 CMP rulebook which governs the matches:

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

The bulk of the VSR rules are found on Pages 28-30, 63-64, and 81-82. As you will see, the rulebook also covers the "As-issued" matches, etc.

There is also a wealth of good information on the VSR matches (and all other CMP competitions) found in the CMP forums where often you will see inquiries about rules/allowances for things not specifically covered in the rules, those which may need clarification, etc.:

http://forums.thecmp.org/

For anyone looking for more info/rules/etc., I provide the above for your use/general reference.



P.S. - Frank, Mike or other mods...might be worth a sticky on this one if you feel it is warranted.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

I think it warrants a sticky.

I'd like to see this stick to as - issued as opposed to modified, sportorized cobbled up Vintage Military/Sniper Rifles.

But I don't get a vote.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

Ya I think this should have a sticky.

I was reading through it last night, good info in there!

 

[Entry Level]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

I was looking through the book, didn't see "must use scope" for Vintage Sniper Match. Does anyone think someone will shoot iron sights. threeothree

 

[ORD]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: threeothree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was looking through the book, didn't see "must use scope" for Vintage Sniper Match. Does anyone think someone will shoot iron sights. threeothree </div></div>

While I agree with you that there is nothing that says you "MUST USE SCOPE" in those words, its in there or at least what I BELIEVE makes scope/optics a mandatory requirement. The rule says "SIGHTS MUST BE..." and thereafter, it says nothing about irons being permitted. See Rule 6.4.3 (6) here and the emphasis I added:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2001 CMP Competition Rules</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (6) <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Sights must be original issue optical sights with as-issued reticles or
sights may be commercial replicas of as-issued optical sights.</span></span></span> In addition,
specific non-issue scopes that are listed in Table I may be used. Such
non-issue scopes may only be used on the rifl es for which they are specifically listed. Replica or non-issue sights may have only crosshair, post
or post with crosshair reticles. Scope mounts and rings may be original or
reproduction replicas. Scope rings may be sleeved or modifi ed to accept
a non-original scope diameter.</div></div>

Furthermore, in keeping with the spirit of an "as issued" "Vintage Sniper Rifle" match, I think that optics will be required. Now, there has already been discussion about removal of optics and use of the same iron-sight equipped rifle in your basic "as-issued" macthes which is permitted. If you want a direct answer though...try posting over on the CMP forums where questions of this nature usually get a fair response from those who are "in the know."

 

[olympian]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

Any chance the CMP will add all the WWII era sniper rifles?
Its amazing there are legal Swiss rifles (neutral country) and no Finnish or Norwegian rifles (combatant countries).

 

[ORD]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olympian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any chance the CMP will add all the WWII era sniper rifles?
Its amazing there are legal Swiss rifles (neutral country) and no Finnish or Norwegian rifles (combatant countries). </div></div>

There has been a good deal of discussion on the CMP forums about the rifles included on the Table to the VSR match rules, but I'm not sure I have ever heard anyone bring up the absent rifles from other nations that you would think would be reasonable to include since they meet the basic requirement of "as-issued" sniper rifles, or commercial replicas of such rifles, that were issued in 1953 or earlier. I have no knowledge whatsoever of the Norwegian or Finnish rifles (aside from being able to recognize one in a pic) and I suspect that the lack of knowledge about the platforms may be a part of the issue given the nature of the rules and the desire to keep the equipment for the matches as close to "original" as possible. Its difficult to include/exclude a particular setup for the matches without specific knowledge as to what makes it fit within the "as-issued" rules.

I encourage you to become a member of the CMP forums and ask your question there about inclusion of other rifles. Also, if there are written/published materials that detail the specifics of the Norwegian and Finnish sniper rifles you are talking about, it may help "the powers that be" in determining a standard for those rifles to be judged on/included/excluded from the matches, etc. Again, the VSR rules/matches are still VERY new and are likely to be modified/adapted as time goes by and ideas like yours may help to get the rules to include more rifles that are within the spirit of the matches. Those are just my thoughts...others may have addt'l input/suggestions for you.

GOOD LUCK!!

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

I've never understood why the Weaver K2.5 is allowed (1" tube) but not the Weaver 29S which is VERY similar to the M73/330C. It seems they'd opt to allow it as a 3/4" tube like the M73 before they'd allow the K2.5

I also just heard from Val Forgett that the new Gibbs M73B1 clones made by Leatherwood/HiLux will be in soon. Waiting for the details now...

 

[Mike Hull]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kenda</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never understood why the Weaver K2.5 is allowed (1" tube) but not the Weaver 29S which is VERY similar to the M73/330C. It seems they'd opt to allow it as a 3/4" tube like the M73 before they'd allow the K2.5

I also just heard from Val Forgett that the new Gibbs M73B1 clones made by Leatherwood/HiLux will be in soon. Waiting for the details now... </div></div>

Why not? They allow the Weaver K4 to be used. Original scopes as used on most vintage Sniper rifles are very expensive to replace. A Weaver K4 fills the bill well at .25 the cost without using more X than many of the originals. Those that have lower power would benefit with the K2.5 without having to use the small diameter (.22 type scopes) that cause loads of problems for those with vision problems.
In my case, I use a K4 Weaver(with German picket post reticle) on an M41b rifle and it gives up performance to the stock M41b AJACK scope, but I don't mind at all, so why should anyone else?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

The intent of the rules is to use scopes that were issued with that rifle. Issued not put on by some shooter. Vintage being before 1954, or basicly up to the end of the Korean War.

If you can documet that X scope was issued with Y rifle for sniper purposes, e-mail Mr Michaels at the CMP. He will present your findings to the rules commitee who upon reviewing the documentation determine you are correct, the rifle or scope will be included.

If you notice when the CMP GSM Sniper program first got started, there were a lot less systems then there is now. Simply because people provided documention,

When I was running sniper schools for the NG, I put some wierd shit on the M1C/Ds. Some worked and some didn't. However none fit the "as issued" guidelines.

Same with other vintage military rifles, Sure you can put a glass bedded thumb hole stock on a 91/30 Mosin, put on apeture sights and make a better shooter, no one disputes that. But its not what the Russian soldiers used. It doesn't fit the "spirit of the game" guidlines of the Garand, Springfield Vintage Military rifle program.

 

[Mike Hull]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The intent of the rules is to use scopes that were issued with that rifle. Issued not put on by some shooter. Vintage being before 1954, or basicly up to the end of the Korean War.

If you can documet that X scope was issued with Y rifle for sniper purposes, e-mail Mr Michaels at the CMP. He will present your findings to the rules commitee who upon reviewing the documentation determine you are correct, the rifle or scope will be included.

If you notice when the CMP GSM Sniper program first got started, there were a lot less systems then there is now. Simply because people provided documention,

When I was running sniper schools for the NG, I put some wierd shit on the M1C/Ds. Some worked and some didn't. However none fit the "as issued" guidelines.

Same with other vintage military rifles, Sure you can put a glass bedded thumb hole stock on a 91/30 Mosin, put on apeture sights and make a better shooter, no one disputes that. But its not what the Russian soldiers used. It doesn't fit the "spirit of the game" guidlines of the Garand, Springfield Vintage Military rifle program. </div></div>

Yes, I understand what rules are for. I don't own a 91/30 with thumb hole stock or anything like it. I use an M41B Swedish Sniper rifle with a mounted K4 Weaver Scope.
I don't know of any appended rulings, but originally they stated that Weaver K4 scopes would be fine on rifles like mine. Their ruling, not mine.
The AJACK 4x90 scope used on mine is at least 4X the price that the rifle is worth, so I won't be risking any original scopes soon.

 

[Dixiedog1980]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

This is my first post on Sniper's Hide so Hello from Georgia.
I e-mailed Orest at the CMP today about adding another rifle to the approved sniper rifle list. After a couple of e- mails my request to add the Finnish M39 sniper will be reviewed by the rules committee at the next meeting in October.
Could not have been any more easy and the CMP seems open to adding a rifle that belongs in this group.
My post on the CMP forum: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=49567

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

You boys misunderstand my post. Let me clarify:
First I am reffering just to the list of accepted optics for the 03A3/A4 family. They list
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M73B1 (Weaver 330C 2.5X telescope),
M73B2, M81, M82, M84
Non-issue scopes: Lyman Alaskan,
Weaver K2.5 </div></div>

The first ones being 3/4 tubes, followed by 7/8 tubes, then they allow the K2.5 with a 1" tube. The 29S is about 1/3 the price, and for most folks just about identical to the 330. I was just commenting on the fact I found it unusual they would allow a very dissimilar type in and omit the scope thats a close sibling of the original and from the same era.

I fully agree that the ability to use more common and less collectable scopes opens up the sport to far more folks. Thats the whole point of the CMP, get people shooting and collecting responsibly. I am not sure why my previous comment drew some light fire.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fully agree that the ability to use more common and less collectable scopes opens up the sport to far more folks. Thats the whole point of the CMP, get people shooting and collecting responsibly.</div></div>

Have you petetitioned CMP on this?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. The CMP GSM (Garand, Springfield, and Vintage Military" matches were limited to "as issued" Garands, Springfields and Vintage Military Rifles.

There are a lot of people shooting SKSs ARs AKs M1As and such that wanted to compete. We know they aren't classed as Vintage As Issued Military Rifles, but CMP understood, now they have a "modern military rifle match" or class.

A lot of people had match grade Garands and Springfields, they weren't "as issued" so the CMP created a "Modified Vintage Rifle Class"

And knowing the CMP GSM program as I do, I'm sure that if enough people petitioned the CMP Rules committee, you can get a Modified Vintage Sniper Rifle Match.

As a CMP GSM Master Instructor I conduct clinics and matches. It really isn't fair for a Mosin to compete with a AR, but it takes no effert to break these rifles into classes. As it is, I do the program where I have a class for a Garand, Springfield, Carbine, other Vintage Military Rifles, and Modern Military and Modified matches.

It means I get more shooters, yet they are competing in their own class.

I see no reason why the CMP wouldn't add a second class it there was the demand.

But regarding the Vintage Sniper matches (about getting more shooters). Last year Vintage Rifles shooting Iron sights were allowed in the Vintage Sniper Matches. That has changed, Now iron sights are only allowed if the firing line spots are available after the Vintage Sniper rifles are slotted. The reason is that the Vintage Sniper Matches have become so popular.

There are only so much time and so many ranges, CMP has to allocate the time and ranges to benifit where there is the most demand.

 

[Dixiedog1980]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

I just heard back from the CMP on my question of allowing the Finnish M39 in the Vintage Sniper Matches - It has been allowed and I will get to shoot mine in any upcoming matches. If you guys have scope questions you may want to ask if a certain scope can be allowed, the CMP folks could not be any nicer.

 

[ORD]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AnotherFrank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just heard back from the CMP on my question of allowing the Finnish M39 in the Vintage Sniper Matches - It has been allowed and I will get to shoot mine in any upcoming matches. If you guys have scope questions you may want to ask if a certain scope can be allowed, the CMP folks could not be any nicer. </div></div>

Thanks for the update on your questions and the response you got from the fine folks at the CMP. That's good news for many folks I suspect!

 

[PB"]

Re: CMP Rulebook - Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches

The intent of the rules is to use scopes that were issued with that rifle. Issued not put on by some shooter. Vintage being before 1954, or basicly up to the end of the Korean War.

If you can documet that X scope was issued with Y rifle for sniper purposes, e-mail Mr Michaels at the CMP. He will present your findings to the rules commitee who upon reviewing the documentation determine you are correct, the rifle or scope will be included.

If you notice when the CMP GSM Sniper program first got started, there were a lot less systems then there is now. Simply because people provided documention,

When I was running sniper schools for the NG, I put some wierd shit on the M1C/Ds. Some worked and some didn't. However none fit the "as issued" guidelines.

Same with other vintage military rifles, Sure you can put a glass bedded thumb hole stock on a 91/30 Mosin, put on apeture sights and make a better shooter, no one disputes that. But its not what the Russian soldiers used. It doesn't fit the "spirit of the game" guidlines of the Garand, Springfield Vintage Military rifle program.

I agree 100%. For me , it’s the “journey “ in being a small part of this fitting tribute.

 

[pitspitr]

I agree 100%. For me , it’s the “journey “ in being a small part of this fitting tribute.

+1
I petitioned them last fall about allowing a straight stock Springfield equipped with a Winchester A5 and provided documentation. They politely told me they would discuss it at their winter meeting, which, I believe is sometime this month. Whether they decide to allow it or not, at least they were open to discussing it.