Rifle Scopes coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

[CST]

How far off the target could I be with 1moa turrets like the M3 from Leupold or NF etc.../?
UKD targets out to 1000yards? I'm sure its doable...but how hard or how much may I be off at the farther distances?
Probably too coarse for small movers at Rifles Only for example?

 

[brand692]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

It won't affect you accuracy. It will affect how precise you can be.

I've never been to RO, so I don't know the size of the movers. However 1 MOA adjustments are what they are. At 1k, thats a big chunk of paper you are moving your hits on. A reticle with hold overs/unders and windage holds would negate some of it if you used it for the .5 MOA holds (if you have a MOA reticle).

Personally, I think 1 and even .5 MOA adjustments are too coarse. I also think that .25 MOA adjustments are too fine. The .1 MIL is damn near perfect in my book (for tactical shooting).

Shooting BR or F Class, I'd want .125 MOA or .05 MIL adjustments. That is a precision game require precise shot placement. There are no movers, no unknown distance targets.

For a Tactical style course, .25 MOA, .5 MOA, or .1 MIL will probably be your best bet. Not saying you couldn't get it done with a 1 MOA turret. I'm 100% sure guys have before.

YMMV.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

+1, I shot .25 moa for several years, and now I've switched to MIL/MIL with .10 clicks, wont ever go back!!

 

[maladat]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It won't affect you accuracy. It will affect how precise you can be.</div></div>

At least in a scientific/statistical sense, this is backwards.

Precision is group size. Accuracy is how near to the POA your group average is, regardless of group size.

On the subject of the discussion, the largest error you can't adjust to be smaller is 1/2 the click size - as an example, if you are .75 clicks off, you can adjust one click and then you are .25 clicks off (in the opposite direction from before).

So, with 1MOA adjustments, the largest error you can't adjust down is 1/2 MOA. At 1000 yards, that's 5.24". That's less than the error you get from a 1 MPH change in wind with most cartridges.

If you're trying to shoot a 10 ring or X ring that is smaller than 1/2 MOA, that's a problem, but that's mostly a benchrest issue.

 

[brand692]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It won't affect you accuracy. It will affect how precise you can be.</div></div>

At least in a scientific/statistical sense, this is backwards.

Precision is group size. Accuracy is how near to the POA your group average is, regardless of group size.

On the subject of the discussion, the largest error you can't adjust to be smaller is 1/2 the click size - as an example, if you are .75 clicks off, you can adjust one click and then you are .25 clicks off (in the opposite direction from before).

So, with 1MOA adjustments, the largest error you can't adjust down is 1/2 MOA. At 1000 yards, that's 5.24". That's less than the error you get from a 1 MPH change in wind with most cartridges. </div></div>

Touche.

EDIT: I got it backwards.

 

[Lindy]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

A shooter at Rifles Only will rarely be shooting at a target which is smaller than 2 MOA, except for a few drills at 100 yards where the target may be 1 MOA.

And it's amazing how often those targets are missed. I guess all those people who have rifles which shoot a quarter-MOA "all day long" are staying at home...

 

[brand692]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

I thought it was ".25 MOA when I do my part."

 

[Lowlight]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

I shoot scopes with 1 MOA adjustments and have no problem hitting small targets.. some of my NF are the USASF models with 1 MOA turrets. <span style="font-style: italic">( I also use mils, the 1 MOA are my only MOA scopes I have left)</span>

I mainly put the 1 MOA NF on AR10s, but have very little trouble hitting what I aim at... I don't see the issue, zero is usually zeroed and from there things seem to work out fine. But I am bad shot and really only look for .5 to 1 MOA accuracy to begin with. I haven't mastered the .25 minute mile yet.

Many units bring 1 MOA M3 Leupolds and hit the mover at RO... it is 9X15 and at 500 yards is hit more often than the 5" Shoot N Cs at 100 yards with regards to the mover.

I have yet to see this accuracy math play out in real life to the degree touted... sort of like the guys who use 243s and 260s expecting to place in the match simply because their chosen load has "better ballistics" they seem to miss the on paper part, you still have to shoot it correctly it doesn't do it for you.

 

[CST]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

how about at longer distances? So a 1moa turret will always be at most 1/2min from POA? That means you will have to remember to always hold alittle low or alittle high the further you shoot out to?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how about at longer distances? So a 1moa turret will always be at most 1/2min from POA? That means you will have to remember to always hold alittle low or alittle high the further you shoot out to?</div></div>

I don't know I never shoot beyond 100 yards so that question is lost on me.

If I were to use the NF 1 MOA scope on my 16" 308 AR10 we'll say, maybe to 1000 yards I would just dial 39 MOA and hit like normal.

I would "guess" the same rifle is capable of hitting a 8" plate consistently and repeatedly at 800 yards too but that would be hard because your math says so, I might have to try for real to see.

 

[maladat]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

I was thinking about it last night and actually the worst-case scenario would be a half click off in both windage and elevation.

This gives you a total error you can't dial out of at most .707*click value, so it would be possible that you couldn't dial closer than that.

Of course, that would be a very rare occurrence and will still likely be overshadowed by changing wind conditions, variation in muzzle velocity, etc.

 

[CST]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

I guess the point is that I have shot some m3 guns and they never shoot exactly POI-POA..Ive never shot a 1moa scope to 1000 but sometimes you use subminute targets ..... now hypothetically speaking in ideal conditions.. say 8" steel at 1000 and your scope shoots 1/2 min low. Your impact will land just below the steel and if u make the one click correction the the next hit would be above the Target....so ur gonna need to use some kind of hold over.. it can't be as simple as dial to 40 moa and shoot...unless the steel is a large target.
I know what ur saying lowlight ...I just figure a 1 moa scope must have some limitations at farther distances especially when u shoot smaller targets then add on all the other conditions like weather and wind etc... i m trying figure out what role 1min scope have over other types.

 

[Lindy]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

I have shot a scope with 1 MOA clicks to 1000. If you see your impact, and it's not where you want it to be by less than a click value, you just hold it using the reticle.

If you're a benchrest or F-class shooter, small clicks may be desirable. I prefer a scope with 0.1 mil clicks and a mil reticle for tactical shooting. Having a scope with adjustments which match the reticle is a lot more important than what system that's in.

 

[m1k3]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

Actually CST, if your impact is 1/2 MOA below an 8" target and you correct with 1MOA/1 Click up, you will hit your target. At 1000yds, 1/2MOA is a little more than 5". 1 click would be a little more than 10" so you would impact about 1" above dead center of that 8" target.

You probably meant 1/2" impact below target. Then correcting 10" inches or 1 click, you would then impact above the 8" target.

Mike

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

^^
yeah, because you would "dial" adjustment for a single 1/2" low shot at 1K???!!

I agree with Frank:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would "guess" the same rifle is capable of hitting a 8" plate consistently and repeatedly at 800 yards too but that would be hard because your math says so, I might have to try for real to see.</div></div>

In the real world of practical precision rifle shooting there are so many more variables that one may have not put together perfectly to cause a shooter to drop a shot just below a 8" plate at 1K.
I'm sure after you dialed an adjustment the shift in position would put you at a differnt POI that would eclipse the radius of the click. But then the wind would have probably changed by a mph or so somehwere along the bullet's path and you'd be off the edge left or right by a little and now we're discussing if 1/2 moa windage clicks are fine enough.......

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

CST, I have never been to a match where someone has put out an 8" plate at 1000yds, but now that you bring it up and Frank has responded to your retardedness I am sure he will do it at the next match. Everyone will hate you and hopefully you get banned!! LOL

You are more likely to have to worry about your windage than your elevation at distance, the smallest I have seen a target at a match is about the size of a LaRue 11x17. So if you dial in on a target like that you are more than likely to miss by windage than by elevation.

If you put out an 8" plate at 1k I am sure that it would have a hit ratio of about 10% if even that, esp at rifles only where they have constant winds.

Sounds like something that Frank needs to try and demonstrate in his next video? Can you do it Little buddy?!!! Think you will hit?!!

Stay tuned!!

 

[CST]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

i got what your saying guys...I do the same with my NF scope mils turret...Just trying to figure out what to expect with a 1moa scope....

I know if your a bencherester then obviously there are other options better out there....

But then whats the point of using 1\4 or .1mil type adjustments if the 1moa is so practical\usable\faster? Besides the obvious benefits using a mil\mil setup.

I think the 1moa turrets are an old fashion solution for a scope setup by scope manufacturers before high speed turrets and mils turrets have come into the new standard

 

[Lowlight]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

The reason the 1 MOA is desirable to some, like the use the M3 turrets is the fact it is course, which means it's fast and easy. They are usually single turn knobs with zero stops, meaning the shooter doesn't get lost in rotations.

The NF has 60MOA in a single turn knob, it is mainly used by the military in the 300WM which is a flatter shooter with some help in the danger space.

8" Plate at 1k, hmm, match coming up in few days, 100 competitors, what better way to mess them up than a cold bore shot at 1000 yards on a 8" plate, which I just happen to have.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

^ good idea!

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

Ah Frank don't be so mean! Give them a [censored] as the CB, if they hit, then give them the option to try 1 shot at the 8. If they hit the 8" then give them some bonus points (10), if they miss they get nothing for either one!! Would be interesting to see how many make even the [censored], easier said than done out there at RO.

 

[BCP]

Re: coarse adustment scopes and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just trying to figure out what to expect with a 1moa scope....
</div></div>

Bigger clicks!