Depends on the degree. I went the vocational route and got my airframe and powerplant license and went to work for US Air as a mechanic. Starting pay was 15 bucks an hour to work on airliners. Minus union dues. 6 years later I was making a whopping 20 bucks an hour. Why yes I am a poors. My childhood friend got a mechanical engineering degree and his M.B.A he makes 250k a year. His son just graduated with an engineering degree his entry level job starting out is 80k. If its an engineering degree or law or something that pays then yeah if they want a liberal arts degree then just kill them for their own good. Some places just want that piece of paper or they won't even consider you. Doesn't matter how smart you are or what you know if you don't have that damn piece of paper. Why yes I am bitter. Don't let your kids hate their lives, give them guidance whether they want it or not that way you can at least say "Well I tried to tell you but you blew me off" when they try to blame you for their lack of success. Sob
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College For The Kids
- Thread starter vinniedelpino
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College does NOT have to be expensive. Many here talk about work/experience...
In the State of GA if you work for any institution after (6) months, you can apply for TAP (Tuition Assistance Program). The college you are working for will pay for 9hrs of classes every semester providing you make decent grades.
There are TONS of jobs on campuses soo the experience is endless.
This is how i got my education paid for. I worked for University Police and they inturn paid for both of my Masters and my Doctorial degree. After finishing i retired from LEO and moved to full-time faculty at my current institution.
In the State of GA if you work for any institution after (6) months, you can apply for TAP (Tuition Assistance Program). The college you are working for will pay for 9hrs of classes every semester providing you make decent grades.
There are TONS of jobs on campuses soo the experience is endless.
This is how i got my education paid for. I worked for University Police and they inturn paid for both of my Masters and my Doctorial degree. After finishing i retired from LEO and moved to full-time faculty at my current institution.
It depends on the maturity of your children. Some kids know exactly what profession they are passionate about. Other kids need to experience life for a few years before they can figure that out.
I was pushed toward medicine due to family pressure but I ended up partying my ass off due to lack of interest in the pursuit of becoming a doctor. I ended up becoming a chemist later in life and I am happy with my decision. However, I wasted a fair amount of money figuring that out because I wasn't mature enough to know what I wanted.
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one reason we got off light for my daughter's masters is she got a prof. asst. job and that actually paid for her housing and even some of the books. we had to get some furniture for the new housing unit like a small bed...which she left. she shared an apt with one other student.
They're soft. No doubt about it. I did a lot better than my parents financially and it's taking its toll on the kids. They've enjoyed a degree of security and comfort I didn't have growing up and it's rearing it's ugly head. Don't get me wrong, they're not like Veruca Salt or anything like that, but they've never had their bike stolen or worn hand-me-downs either. I don't think the value of a dollar can really be taught unless you've gone without, and they've had everything they need and then some. They're somewhat sheltered, and that's what scares me.
At 18, can you really be certain about what you want to do for the next 50 years? I'm not that optimistic. Too many kids change their mind and I'm not that confident in their resolve with so little life experience. I was dead set on being a music teacher. I was making money playing gigs in NYC in high school and was made second seat in the all-state orchestra. I don't even play anymore. I had scholarships and my choice of college. On the bright side, I still have about six years to figure this out.
They may not know what they want to do but if they are mature enough they will be able to finish college on time, get a job and make a transition later in life once they experience their field (they may also stay in their field).
There are so many avenues to take thus there is no correct answer. Military and GI bill, working and paying for college, trade school, working first and then going to college later in life and scholarships are some of the possibilities.
I think one mistake we make as parents is not allowing our kids to fail out of fear. I am guilty of this as well but I am trying to improve it. Allow them to make mistakes but not a mistake that would destroy their life.
what sucks is (at least around here) there is no budget for wood shop, metal shop, auto, home economics, etc., where kids can try things if their dad (or mom) isn't good with their hands or mechanically inclined, or isn't even there to begin with.
we were lucky that although we didn't have a lot of money, we had a garage full of tools growing up.
i almost think the UK system is better where you only go to regular school through middle school, and then decide if you want to go to college and start with your a-levels, or if you don't you go to trade school or find an apprenticeship if you can.
Agreed. We fixed everything growing up, from appliances to vehicles, plumbing, electrical work and everything in between. I don't think my dad hired anyone to fix anything... ever. He knew his math because he used it to fabricate and fix things. He wasn't educated by todays standards, but he's still one of the most intelligent and capable men I know. I picked up half of what he tried to teach me, and at best my kids will pick up half of what I try to teach them. There's no more "shop" in my neck of the woods anymore either. It sucks.
If the doom and gloom SHTF scenarios ever came to fruition, these kids are screwed. I think I need to stop worrying about college right now and build a mini bike with my kid instead right now.
I dropped out of high school.
Got my GED.
Worked some shit jobs
Worked my way up.
Worked for a bunch of assholes and a few good folks.
I now work for myself when I feel like it.
I tell my daughters the only thing that matters is "what have you done the last 4 years"
If that was going to school, you graduated, and got good grades, excellent.
If you actually worked at a job, increased your responsibility and pay, even better.
I worked with a bunch of Stanford PHDs for a number of years. They never had any real world experience, and couldn't understand delivering a product.
Got my GED.
Worked some shit jobs
Worked my way up.
Worked for a bunch of assholes and a few good folks.
I now work for myself when I feel like it.
I tell my daughters the only thing that matters is "what have you done the last 4 years"
If that was going to school, you graduated, and got good grades, excellent.
If you actually worked at a job, increased your responsibility and pay, even better.
I worked with a bunch of Stanford PHDs for a number of years. They never had any real world experience, and couldn't understand delivering a product.
i got my nephew a gransfors bruks small forest axe, for camping and survival (plus it is something he can proudly hand down).
his mom thought it might be too dangerous for a 14 year old.
my dad was an auto mechanic after the army, and if something on my car broke, i would find the parts and the shop manual on the porch.
had to change a water pump in the winter and banged my knuckles. fuck! it was like 50 deg.
i can't believe my dad did that shit when he lived in ann arbor where it actually gets cold.
College, for many, is a multi year extension of the teenage environment where responsibility is still on the horizon. It ls a game, with rules that can be overcome without much serious effort, and it has the negative effect of letting the individual think they can get by with minimum effort. It's Hogworts in the flesh. It also reinforces the party aspect and does very little to enhance critical thought, moral strength, or ethical beliefs. Get it all, any way you can.
If I were still hiring, paper would mean nothing to me. I did without it, paid some big prices for not being 'one of the boys', (Vietnam, for example), and never had to worry about whether I deserved anything, I just dug in and earned it; which seems to be an alien concept these days.
Being a Marine helped me face and conquer problems far more then college could have, because I knew that yes, I could die trying, but if I did, my problems were over anyway. Damned few of my HS Colleagues who went on to college can say that, or even understand it. When I'd meet them after the war, they'd see the uniform and get humble real quick. I didn't have to say or do anything to earn that respect, it came with the uniform; and if it didn't, I instantly knew who I was wasting my time on.
Today, it's a course of running over SJW hurdles, with knowledge taking back seat, or no seat at all.
I wouldn't send anyone I like to college these days. I wouldn't send anyone I didn't like, either; we already have too many of those self entitled college educated horse puppies clogging up the career paths.
Some of them would scoff because I never lived the Greek life, and therefore never learned loyalty to one's frat brothers. These days, they screw over those frat brothers just like they do to everybody else.
They wouldn't last a month in PI.
Greg
If I were still hiring, paper would mean nothing to me. I did without it, paid some big prices for not being 'one of the boys', (Vietnam, for example), and never had to worry about whether I deserved anything, I just dug in and earned it; which seems to be an alien concept these days.
Being a Marine helped me face and conquer problems far more then college could have, because I knew that yes, I could die trying, but if I did, my problems were over anyway. Damned few of my HS Colleagues who went on to college can say that, or even understand it. When I'd meet them after the war, they'd see the uniform and get humble real quick. I didn't have to say or do anything to earn that respect, it came with the uniform; and if it didn't, I instantly knew who I was wasting my time on.
Today, it's a course of running over SJW hurdles, with knowledge taking back seat, or no seat at all.
I wouldn't send anyone I like to college these days. I wouldn't send anyone I didn't like, either; we already have too many of those self entitled college educated horse puppies clogging up the career paths.
Some of them would scoff because I never lived the Greek life, and therefore never learned loyalty to one's frat brothers. These days, they screw over those frat brothers just like they do to everybody else.
They wouldn't last a month in PI.
Greg
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I'm with you. I know it may seem crazy, but I'd RATHER hire people without degrees than newly minted undergrads. Here's my perspective as a small employer when it comes to hiring.
1. I can hire someone who knows what they're doing for ~$100k. It'll take them a few months to settle in and get in the swing of things. After the acclimation period, they're usually fine until they get bored or find a more lucrative opportunity. Then I'm back to where I started. Either that or I have to bring them on as partner. It's generally a safe bet, but it's costly. Return on investment (ROI) is usually underwhelming and decreases over time.
2. I can hire someone without a degree for ~$35 or $40k. It'll take two or three years for them to get to the position where I don't have to constantly look over their shoulder. After the first two or three years, I'll pay them $75k and I don't have to worry about them leaving because they don't have as many opportunities as someone with a degree. They can't acquire partnership interest (as the cpa board won't allow it) and they can either start their own business as an uncredentialed accountant, or stay where they are. This generally provides the best return on investment as an employer over the long term.
3. I can hire a new grad for $50k or so. It'll still take the same two or three years for them to get to the position where I don't have to constantly look over their shoulder. After that two or three years, they're going to want significantly more money and I'm either going to have to pay them six figures, plus future raises or they're going to find another opportunity. Now I spent the last few years babysitting, burned a bunch of extra money and I'm back to where I started anyway. This has the highest probability of blowing up in my face. I incur a huge expense up front, and the likelihood of any significant return on this investment in the long run is the least likely of the three options.
I don't think I'll ever hire a new grad... and a lot of people in my position feel the same way. When you're cutting paychecks, you want to see a return , and new grads are usually less competent than someone with a year of actual experience and no education. They also feel entitled more compensation and present much more of a flight risk. Maybe this is why so many new grads are strapped with student debt they can't pay off and less than stellar job prospects? I went through school so that I could sit for the CPA exam. If I could have skipped college and studied on my own I would have. Frankly, I'm baffled as to why college was a requirement in the first place. You either know your shit or you don't. What's the difference if you learned it in a classroom or through a self study program? As an employer, I couldn't care less.
I think it's painfully clear that a massive number of new grads made a bad investment in higher education. How can we deny that given the level of support for student loan forgiveness? Good investments don't require government bailouts. It seems so cut and dry to me, yet my family and friends think I'm out of my mind for taking the position I have. The only people who agree with me are other small business owners.
I won't pay for the grand kids to go to any Communist indoctrination College or a University. But would gladly pay for their Tools & Equipment to go into the Building Trades through an apprenticeship program. And a new truck for the job.
Grand-dad
Grand-dad
Personally, when I wet to school college was $900/year, and I could earn that in construction in the summer along with going to summer school
Back in my day i hated college, filled with lefty hippies and dopers
So my goal was medicine
to that goal i studied 6hr/day and 14/day Sat and Sunday, got 99 credits in 2 years with all the basic courses necessary, along with a 4.0 and 800 MCAT's,
Technically I'm a college dropout without a Bach. degree
Managed to apply to 5 med schools (tuition then was $1900/year), and got accepted to 5/5...I learned hard work and focus
point is if you know what you want go straight for it. If you can read, you can learn just about anything.
Twain said don't let school interfere with your education
There are so many smart people here who contribute, and many of whom never went to college, which is not for everyone.
Now I hang out here with deplorables! where did I fail????
Back in my day i hated college, filled with lefty hippies and dopers
So my goal was medicine
to that goal i studied 6hr/day and 14/day Sat and Sunday, got 99 credits in 2 years with all the basic courses necessary, along with a 4.0 and 800 MCAT's,
Technically I'm a college dropout without a Bach. degree
Managed to apply to 5 med schools (tuition then was $1900/year), and got accepted to 5/5...I learned hard work and focus
point is if you know what you want go straight for it. If you can read, you can learn just about anything.
Twain said don't let school interfere with your education
There are so many smart people here who contribute, and many of whom never went to college, which is not for everyone.
Now I hang out here with deplorables! where did I fail????
If looking for a financial rule for college:
- Your student loan for your degree should not be more than 1x your starting salary after graduation.
- If your starting salary is $30,000, your program should not cost more than $30,000.
- If you can find a way to follow this financial rule, you should not have issues paying back your loan.
When I hire someone they have full knowledge that results are the number one measure of success. This is whether or not you have any experience or a relevant degree. And I do hire people for jobs that have no relevant experience so they can learn if I think they have the potential. Sometimes it works, other times I take the loss. But 90% of the time if it doesn’t work out it comes down to poor character or they really don’t like the job, which is perfectly fine and good for them as they go through life. I have a young man who recently discharged from the Army that will be coming in at an entry level with no experience but I think he will work out; I will put him with both the trades guys and the engineer to round him out. But he still has to perform at a level that is appropriate for his experience.
Not knowing everything is not a bad thing. Thinking you know it all is terrible. Having a degree is not the same as experience but if you have the degree I do expect you to perform with the mindset of someone within that discipline. If you have that and character we can go from there as a team.
Degrees matter for some things. But I have seen some very shrewd dudes that would run circles around those with papers. Example: If you are a mechanical engineer and can’t produce a drawing you need to ask yourself where you failed yourself and shore it up.
Not knowing everything is not a bad thing. Thinking you know it all is terrible. Having a degree is not the same as experience but if you have the degree I do expect you to perform with the mindset of someone within that discipline. If you have that and character we can go from there as a team.
Degrees matter for some things. But I have seen some very shrewd dudes that would run circles around those with papers. Example: If you are a mechanical engineer and can’t produce a drawing you need to ask yourself where you failed yourself and shore it up.
One of my Grandkids went for sound recording and engineering, went to the local state college for two years, we picked the tab up o/o pocket, and now, 5 years later, she's a disgusted bartender. She's a treasure in the rough, but the most important thing is that regardless of what her education brought, she has never had tuition debts.
She lives with us, helps us out a lot, and we're a family getting through each day together.
Like all of us, our crystal ball is cloudy. For these times, no play book exists. When the sky rains brown stuff, the family hunkers down together. Anyone who wants to tinker with that is butting at a stone wall.
Having been a year and some in Northern S. Vietnam, a lot of things for granted just aren't there. One learns that life can go on without them, and that when they come back within reach, one obtains and retains. If any luck comes out of that sort of situation, that's a big part of it.
I will never be bored. No matter how life has changed, it's always settled out better than before. That's not luck; that's ambition. Without my Wife, none of this could have been possible.
Greg
She lives with us, helps us out a lot, and we're a family getting through each day together.
Like all of us, our crystal ball is cloudy. For these times, no play book exists. When the sky rains brown stuff, the family hunkers down together. Anyone who wants to tinker with that is butting at a stone wall.
Having been a year and some in Northern S. Vietnam, a lot of things for granted just aren't there. One learns that life can go on without them, and that when they come back within reach, one obtains and retains. If any luck comes out of that sort of situation, that's a big part of it.
I will never be bored. No matter how life has changed, it's always settled out better than before. That's not luck; that's ambition. Without my Wife, none of this could have been possible.
Greg
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Don't know if it has been mentioned but iIF (engineering, doctor, etc...) your career requires a degree (and MANY do not), 2 years at a community college is a cost effective way to knock out courses at a much lower cost. (notice compters isn't on there--you can learn to program yourself--I work as a 'data engineer' -- 0 classes in computer programming)
Beyond the Ivy league (as mentioned for CONNECTIONS, not for any educational advantage), all colleges are pretty much the same. Find ones with a good department you are interested in that is a public university and get in-state tuition.
Graduate School was esstially free with a Research Assistantship.
I got all my degrees at public universities and didn't owe a cent because while everyone was out partying I studied my ass off and got a free ride.
Private School is a waste. College in general is becoming a HUGE waste
Full Disclosure, I teach (professor) part time at a Private School.
Beyond the Ivy league (as mentioned for CONNECTIONS, not for any educational advantage), all colleges are pretty much the same. Find ones with a good department you are interested in that is a public university and get in-state tuition.
Graduate School was esstially free with a Research Assistantship.
I got all my degrees at public universities and didn't owe a cent because while everyone was out partying I studied my ass off and got a free ride.
Private School is a waste. College in general is becoming a HUGE waste
Full Disclosure, I teach (professor) part time at a Private School.
With engineering degrees, most engineering programs are laid out in a way that you can’t follow the advice of getting gen. Ed. Credits out of the way first at a community college because you basically start your engineering classes your first semester and you’re learning the math, physics, and chemistry along side the classes where you will need them. Starting at a community college in most cases means that you turned a 4-5 year degree into a 6-7 year degree and added cost. That said, I was intentional about picking an engineering school where I could learn more than just the coursework. I learned to weld, operate machine tools, and build engines while getting paid by the university as a shop TA, all while completing my BSME, I had that privilege mostly because I came along at a good time when most of my classmates weren’t willing to do physical work.
I learned mechanical drawing, Autocad, Inventor, and Solidworks all from my high schools drafting department, my guidance counselor told me it was a waste of time and wouldn’t help me get into college, who cares?? I could have gotten a job straight out of highschool doing HVAC layout for office buildings. At that point I lost all regard for guidance counselors, What I recommend to the youth at church and what I will push my kids to do is to learn a skilled trade from the vocational centers in our town before they go to college. In our area highschool kids can learn to weld, basic machine tool operation and CNC training, CAD system operation, computer programming, or any of the traditional trades, they have to show an interest and it isnt like the old days with shop classes but the training is available for basically free. None of those jobs are likely to be eliminated by automation, they can all provide income on their own merit, they will all complement any college degree that’s worth a shit, and most people won’t learn how to do them because they seem difficult. College is great, but most of my wife’s friends got generic degrees from expensive schools and are still paying off debt 10-15 years later, doing a mediocre performance at a job they don’t like, and all they can talk about is how much fun they had and how great the lack of responsibility was. What a waste of time and money.
I learned mechanical drawing, Autocad, Inventor, and Solidworks all from my high schools drafting department, my guidance counselor told me it was a waste of time and wouldn’t help me get into college, who cares?? I could have gotten a job straight out of highschool doing HVAC layout for office buildings. At that point I lost all regard for guidance counselors, What I recommend to the youth at church and what I will push my kids to do is to learn a skilled trade from the vocational centers in our town before they go to college. In our area highschool kids can learn to weld, basic machine tool operation and CNC training, CAD system operation, computer programming, or any of the traditional trades, they have to show an interest and it isnt like the old days with shop classes but the training is available for basically free. None of those jobs are likely to be eliminated by automation, they can all provide income on their own merit, they will all complement any college degree that’s worth a shit, and most people won’t learn how to do them because they seem difficult. College is great, but most of my wife’s friends got generic degrees from expensive schools and are still paying off debt 10-15 years later, doing a mediocre performance at a job they don’t like, and all they can talk about is how much fun they had and how great the lack of responsibility was. What a waste of time and money.
At least 90% of people have no need for typical college (but I am a dick about this topic). If you can't get into a school that is top 10 (back in the day, perhaps top 30 now) in your field, then you shouldn't be going into that field. That's also assuming that the field of study is a real science.
Knowledge is free. Society's measuring stick for your perceived knowledge, however, is shallow, weak, and misguided. So, be careful to choose the game before inadvertently playing it.
When your Amazon driver has a master's in Communication from Dick State U and is 70K in debt, it's a sign...
Knowledge is free. Society's measuring stick for your perceived knowledge, however, is shallow, weak, and misguided. So, be careful to choose the game before inadvertently playing it.
When your Amazon driver has a master's in Communication from Dick State U and is 70K in debt, it's a sign...
College has certainly gotten more expensive than it has any right to be, but as above there are deals to be had. In many states the state 4 year schools are required to accept the credits from community colleges. Community colleges are significantly cheaper. Our community college currently charges around $170 a credit while the state school I graduated from charges closer to $475. I also worked on campus in housing so I got free room and board. Nobody cares where the first two years were, they'll only see the name on the bachelor's.
For $5,000 a year it's cheaper than a lot of private high schools. They can get an associate's in lots of things, welding, IT, english etc and if they decide they want to go to a four year school they're all set. It also gives them a low cost chance to try and find something they're interested in. A few wasted classes at $170 a credit doesn't sting like changing your major halfway through a 4 year school. I think about what I would've done from 18-20 if left to my own devices and it's not nearly as productive as picking up an associate's.
As far as if it's worth it, it's easier to be worth it if it's cheaper. The degree can open a lot of doors, even if you have to learn a lot on the job (you will). What college did teach me was critical thinking, reading comprehension, and lots of other skills that help me do well at my job. I graduated with some debt but lived at home to pay it off quickly. I wouldn't go to an expensive private school if you're not sure what you want to do and can't afford it, just like I wouldn't buy a new car if I didn't have the money.
My mom never finished her degree and is dead ended at work because of it. She has tons of experience, but in order to get promoted again she would need a degree to meet the requirements set by the company. Is it right? Probably not, but it is what it is. Her stance was I could get a degree and never plan to use it, but I was getting a degree.
If you can make it affordable it makes a lot of sense to get a degree. It helps if they want to go into a field that needs one, but people change their mind. I changed my major a few times. A degree can be a good starting point and once you have it, you have it for life. Going back to school only gets harder the older you get, if they have interest I'd encourage them to go right after highschool.
For $5,000 a year it's cheaper than a lot of private high schools. They can get an associate's in lots of things, welding, IT, english etc and if they decide they want to go to a four year school they're all set. It also gives them a low cost chance to try and find something they're interested in. A few wasted classes at $170 a credit doesn't sting like changing your major halfway through a 4 year school. I think about what I would've done from 18-20 if left to my own devices and it's not nearly as productive as picking up an associate's.
As far as if it's worth it, it's easier to be worth it if it's cheaper. The degree can open a lot of doors, even if you have to learn a lot on the job (you will). What college did teach me was critical thinking, reading comprehension, and lots of other skills that help me do well at my job. I graduated with some debt but lived at home to pay it off quickly. I wouldn't go to an expensive private school if you're not sure what you want to do and can't afford it, just like I wouldn't buy a new car if I didn't have the money.
My mom never finished her degree and is dead ended at work because of it. She has tons of experience, but in order to get promoted again she would need a degree to meet the requirements set by the company. Is it right? Probably not, but it is what it is. Her stance was I could get a degree and never plan to use it, but I was getting a degree.
If you can make it affordable it makes a lot of sense to get a degree. It helps if they want to go into a field that needs one, but people change their mind. I changed my major a few times. A degree can be a good starting point and once you have it, you have it for life. Going back to school only gets harder the older you get, if they have interest I'd encourage them to go right after highschool.
I gave my 2 sons the same choices for college as my father gave to me. "You can choose any of the following 4 colleges: Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corp."
My only concern was if they chose Air Force. lol
My only concern was if they chose Air Force. lol
90%? Are you genuinely suggesting that our of a population of 333.5 million only 33.3 million have a need for college? How many doctors and nurses are there in America? That doesn't leave a lot of room for accountants, engineers and others. Review your math, correct the statement and turn your work back in for a re-grade.
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You're going to find a lot of different views here, and I don't think any are going to be wrong due to the differences in circumstances that we faced along the way.
I myself have three degrees, the highest being an MBA. I don't use anything I studied for probably 29 out of 30 days per month. When I do use any of the education I received it is to compare costs and profits associated with cattle, as well as general herd management (residual average daily gain of calves on ____ feed diet/amount etc...).
Moving out to the country, I didn't know how things were going to fall in place financially. There aren't a lot of jobs available for dudes with degrees in accounting, HRM, and business management. So I just took my teacher certification exams on a whim and received my alternative credential program certificate, allowing me to teach business education through high school. I started as a 7th grade English teacher...go figure that one out. Anyway, after a little over a semester of that and I knew teaching wasn't for me.
I now ranch and watch my two little girls full time. My wife is a Veterinarian, and works away from the ranch, but we will be starting our own business in a few years of both office and mobile vet services to include cattle management (I may put my education to use after all).
We are going to stress education here to our girls. It is the only way out of this place. I have a couple kids from a previous marriage, and am stressing either education, a trade school, or the military until they know what they want out of life. I'm a firm believer that the vast majority of success stories include a skillset learned post high school.
Being a 100 percent disabled dude post military career, the kids are able to qualify for a program that essentially pays about enough to cover a junior or community college tuition. We will see if the program survives this administration. In addition, we do have a small savings set aside to help with the initial costs of going to school. We also believe that the kids should have to have just a little invested into their own education as it will bear a little weight to the consequences of goofing off. My wife and I put ourselves through school, so we know it can be done. However we don't want our kids entering the workforce up to their eyeballs in debt either.
I myself have three degrees, the highest being an MBA. I don't use anything I studied for probably 29 out of 30 days per month. When I do use any of the education I received it is to compare costs and profits associated with cattle, as well as general herd management (residual average daily gain of calves on ____ feed diet/amount etc...).
Moving out to the country, I didn't know how things were going to fall in place financially. There aren't a lot of jobs available for dudes with degrees in accounting, HRM, and business management. So I just took my teacher certification exams on a whim and received my alternative credential program certificate, allowing me to teach business education through high school. I started as a 7th grade English teacher...go figure that one out. Anyway, after a little over a semester of that and I knew teaching wasn't for me.
I now ranch and watch my two little girls full time. My wife is a Veterinarian, and works away from the ranch, but we will be starting our own business in a few years of both office and mobile vet services to include cattle management (I may put my education to use after all).
We are going to stress education here to our girls. It is the only way out of this place. I have a couple kids from a previous marriage, and am stressing either education, a trade school, or the military until they know what they want out of life. I'm a firm believer that the vast majority of success stories include a skillset learned post high school.
Being a 100 percent disabled dude post military career, the kids are able to qualify for a program that essentially pays about enough to cover a junior or community college tuition. We will see if the program survives this administration. In addition, we do have a small savings set aside to help with the initial costs of going to school. We also believe that the kids should have to have just a little invested into their own education as it will bear a little weight to the consequences of goofing off. My wife and I put ourselves through school, so we know it can be done. However we don't want our kids entering the workforce up to their eyeballs in debt either.
Why does an education have to come from college? I'm a CPA and small business owner and I can assure you that recent grads are absolutely useless to me. I'd much rather have someone without the paper and four years of experience. Or even one year of experience.
In conversing with clients in the engineering field I've heard the same. Can't speak on doctors and nurses though...
4 years of Undergrad. First 2 were a redo of high school
First 2 years of Grad school was a repeat of of the last year years of undergrad.
3 years of research for PhD.
Of the 9 years in college for a PhD, it easily could have been done in 5.
I teach Artificial Intelligence at a Major University. Number of AI/Computer Science Classes in my past: 0
This may indeed be true and I concur with your experiences on recent grads. The fact of the matter is that your team is working under you and your certification. If they want to be anything other than a bookkeeper or want to strike out on their own as an accountant they will need that CPA as well.
I have come to the conclusion that I was an idiot when I came out of college and needed OJT training. I am extremely grateful for that and now offer the same to those I hire. Some hit, some miss. But they all need to be given a chance to try, fail, learn and grow up. Some really become competent. Others I wouldn't trust to put out a cigarette butt.
Didnt read though teh whole thread again, so I may have posted already.
Id think it depends on the individual. Some are more intellectual than others, for those college with a well chosen curriculum could be just what then need to stimulate their minds. Others are more hands on and would wither in school (myself), for them a trade school might be the ticket...or just find a job and work for awhile. Using your back is an honorable profession and can teach valuable life experience...like "Time to get my young ass back in school because I hate this shit.".
I tried college at 18, flunked out miserably (it was 1968 after all, party time), got into construction and flourished. Went back at 40, with life experience under my belt, lucked into two instructors my first year who absolutely inspired me, and flourished, ended up finishing with a high B+ average while holding a job to pay for it. Graduated debt free.
It theyre unsure, try local community college first before investing a small fortune into a major U.
Nothing against the military, but with the current administration, and the way things are looking, I dont think I would encourage that route.
I said, have a need for typical college, which includes ~40% humanities courses to complete a BS, which itself has a lot of repetition due to teaching for the lowest common denominator, who might not belong there. I don't want to argue on the internet - discussing difference in opinion is fine, and perhaps I could've been more clear, but no need to assume the worst and condescend with your response.
I had to train a fellow chemist how to use a pH meter.... There is a massive disconnect between industry and college which is one of the primary issues. Is it fun to talk about various theories and do problem sets...sure. Is it practical for industry, not really.
Colleges are doing a piss poor job of training for industry because they are so hyper focused on training for advanced research.
Colleges are doing a piss poor job of training for industry because they are so hyper focused on training for advanced research.
My family has a long tradition of having the kids pay for their first car and college. And when you are 18 you are out of the house. It’s your birthday gift.
I make $570,000 a year and bought my own damn car and college and place to live at 18.
My cousins were raised by their mom who was definitely not that type of person and wasn’t going to follow the tradition.
They all dropped out of college after wasting her money and do drugs in her basement while driving the cars mommy bought them. Been that way for 20 years.
My kids were told when they were 13 that I was moving when they turned 18 and they weren’t coming with.
My plan on how to raise them was anchored around preparing them for that 18th birthday - and so was their plan for growing up. They actually had one.
The daughter is now a very successful mom who does a great job home schooling the grandkids and the son is a fine Marine who is on his way to a $200k a year job when he leaves the Corps.
If you have raised them right then when you put them in the fire it will harden them - if you raised them wrong they will melt.
I make $570,000 a year and bought my own damn car and college and place to live at 18.
My cousins were raised by their mom who was definitely not that type of person and wasn’t going to follow the tradition.
They all dropped out of college after wasting her money and do drugs in her basement while driving the cars mommy bought them. Been that way for 20 years.
My kids were told when they were 13 that I was moving when they turned 18 and they weren’t coming with.
My plan on how to raise them was anchored around preparing them for that 18th birthday - and so was their plan for growing up. They actually had one.
The daughter is now a very successful mom who does a great job home schooling the grandkids and the son is a fine Marine who is on his way to a $200k a year job when he leaves the Corps.
If you have raised them right then when you put them in the fire it will harden them - if you raised them wrong they will melt.
If your kid wants to go, and can get in to a good school, and you can pay for it, I personally think you should do it. I have a lot of complaints about higher education, but I also realize that life is a good bit easier on kids with "good" educations.
Yes, unfortunately a large % of the research being conducted lacks originality and purpose.
Yes, there are several other options besides the standard 4-year degree from an accredited college. I've been thinking about this stuff a lot lately too with a Freshman in HS this year. Been talking to him about military service, and letting him know he doesn't have to be a SEAL/Delta/Ranger/Sniper/Green-Beret/MARSOC/Recon door kicker either. Lot's of good skills to learn and let uncle-sugar pay for. I served and used my GI Bill for my undergrad and then served again in the Guard to pay 100% of my grad school. But if he isn't interested in the .mil, that's cool too. We have a really nice new career center just down the road I've been looking into lately.
I did find a LOT of my undergrad classes to be BS time and money wasters that were sold to give me "breadth of knowledge" etc., like Art History, Philosophy, African-American Literature etc. It would have been nice to only have to spend the time/money to choose to take what I need in my job. Crazy huh? In my profession, a BS degree won't even get you considered. Minimum is an MS or PhD preferred. I also find job experience to be more beneficial than just the paper. I've had a few newly minted BS hires that were worthless. A BS degree basically just get's you prepared for grad school, at least in my profession (mathematical sciences). If I had to do it again, I'd most likely choose another profession so as not to spend the better part of a decade in school. I'd rather learn a marketable trade, some business, and work for myself.
I like the ideas others have posted here about skilled trades and the shortages of folks doing those jobs. Thanks to whoever posted the Mike Rowe WORKS Foundation link and the Praxis link! I'd never heard of them. The more stuff I have to share with my son, the better, so keep posting this stuff. I always wanted to be a welder (underwater even) but back then, I didn't think it would pay off. My school even had a welding engineering program which I almost changed majors to. Oh well.
OP, good luck. I'm sure whatever your kids choose will work out, since it sounds like you're taking an active role in guiding them towards success. In the end it's about all we can do with our kids.
Agreed. I place the value on the CPA license though, not the diploma. Tons of people graduate from college with a masters in accounting and fail the CPA exam for years before giving up. My position is that you either know your shit or you don't. Who cares where you learned it or how much time/money it cost you? Not me.
If I could sit for the bar without the education requirements I would, and I would pass it too. With flying colors. I just don't have $200k and three years to piss away rubbing elbows with the good old boys.
Civil Engineer here. Great success hiring grads from Purdue and Rose-Hulman. Key is we have company principals on advisory boards at those schools so we have connections with the department. Makes for great referrals. Another priority we focus on is to train and mentor them so they pass their PE exam the first time. And pay them well. Typically they can make shareholder status in 8-10 yrs.
The only companies that hire 400+ CPAs are CPA firms, and only the biggest ones at that.
Your average company with $100m in revenue usually has an accounting department consisting of a half a dozen people, maybe one is a CPA and he's usually either the CFO or controller. The rest are A/R and A/P clerks and bookkeepers. Amazon might have a few dozen. Maybe even a hundred. Most probably aren't working in accounting though.
Your dad might have meant he hired one of the big firms to do accounting work for his company, but he definitely didn't have 400 CPAs working underneath him without being a managing partner at one of the big four accounting firms or at the very least, one of the regional firms.
As someone with two master’s degrees (Aeronautical Engineering and Strategic Studies/PolySci), I can honestly say that most undergrad degrees aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on these days. Unless you have a very specific skill set requirement, no need in my opinion...and most of those require doctoral-level degrees anyway.
as a hiring manager, all your degree tells me is that you have some measurable capacity to learn...and maybe some dedication (“sticktoitedness”).
I’ve been promoting almost as many internal hires to salaried positions from my pool of hourly employees as I have brought in college graduate new hires for a couple years now. I want a proven commodity.
just my $0.02
as a hiring manager, all your degree tells me is that you have some measurable capacity to learn...and maybe some dedication (“sticktoitedness”).
I’ve been promoting almost as many internal hires to salaried positions from my pool of hourly employees as I have brought in college graduate new hires for a couple years now. I want a proven commodity.
just my $0.02
Couldn't agree more about taking an active role in being a mentor. You'll want to make an assessment of the child's vision of their future self and weigh that against their focus and grit, then offer some practical advice.
That's what happened to our daughter and it was a journey for both of us. H.S., BBA, then JD. Funny twist, she never sat for the bar, but the JD title allowed her to move quickly through the ranks at her company. She's thanked me numerous times for being there for all those long talks about her goals, but I told her it takes two. If we'd had a second child, we might have been talking about going to a trade school or joining the military. It's all about the pursuit of their dreams, but it sure does help if they have the maturity at that age to choose an educational path consistent with their vision.
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The DOD is the largest employer of accountants of any government organization without about 2500 on staff. Of those, only a tiny fraction are CPAs. Probably to the tune of 100 or less. If I had to guess, much less. I prep returns for several DFAS Accounting employees and I haven't run into any yet. Some of them do make damn good money though.
Nothing against unlicensed accountants. Many are better than your average CPA. It's just extremely unlikely to have more than a room full of CPAs working for any one business or organization outside of some of the biggest accounting firms in the world.
When you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. As it turn out, there are professions that require (or highly recommend) a CPA license as a job requirement, though the job title is not "accountant." For example, a job listing for "Auditor" may require a CPA license. And, while even a large company may only need one or a few internal auditors, there are State and Federal agencies that find it useful to employ 100s of auditors- like the IRS and whatever agency oversees the public accounts in your State of residence. While it is true that these jobs may only "recommend" a CPA license, my experience as been that "recommended experience" serves as a functional low bar for admission.
The IRS employs 969 "tax examiners."
I tried to find how many auditors/examiners were employed by the revenue agencies in CA and CT (other states where I have lived), but lost interest. However, I was able to find that in my current State of residence (Texas), the State Comptroller's office employs 540 auditors in the appropriately named Audit Division.
This has been a mildly entertaining diversion on this thread about College for the Kids. As a holder of a PhD myself, most might think that I come down on the side of College or bust. My take on college is in post 3...
College For The Kids
What's your take on college nowadays? I just had an interesting conversation with my financial planner about this. I have four kids, and I'm in the process of adopting a fifth. The adopted child is older and gets a free ride for being adopted out of foster care. I have a fair bit of...
www.snipershide.com
When you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. As it turn out, there are professions that require (or highly recommend) a CPA license as a job requirement, though the job title is not "accountant." For example, a job listing for "Auditor" may require a CPA license. And, while even a large company may only need one or a few internal auditors, there are State and Federal agencies that find it useful to employ 100s of auditors- like the IRS and whatever agency oversees the public accounts in your State of residence. While it is true that these jobs may only "recommend" a CPA license, my experience as been that "recommended experience" serves as a functional low bar for admission.
The IRS employs 969 "tax examiners."
I tried to find how many auditors/examiners were employed by the revenue agencies in CA and CT (other states where I have lived), but lost interest. However, I was able to find that in my current State of residence (Texas), the State Comptroller's office employs 540 auditors in the appropriately named Audit Division.
This has been a mildly entertaining diversion on this thread about College for the Kids. As a holder of a PhD myself, most might think that I come down on the side of College or bust. My take on college is in post 3...
College For The Kids
What's your take on college nowadays? I just had an interesting conversation with my financial planner about this. I have four kids, and I'm in the process of adopting a fifth. The adopted child is older and gets a free ride for being adopted out of foster care. I have a fair bit of...
I hear you. Two totally different animals though. The term "accountant" is a lot like the term "businessman." It could mean a guy that sells hotdogs on the side of the road or the CEO and majority shareholder of a publicly traded corporation. It's exceedingly rare for CPAs to work for the government at all. The pay just isn't there and we don't have much value to offer the government anyway. That's outside the scope of what we generally do.
Send them all to trade schools. You'll save money, they'll have instant employment, no loan debt, and you'll still be able to talk to them after 4 years.
I want to agree with this, but I don’t think I can. Not everyone is cut out for college, nor is everyone cut out for trade schools. Let it be known to the kids that they can change their minds if they like or don’t like a decision they have made. There is real personal power in the maturity of being able to admit mistakes. Whether or not you as a parent pay for the change in direction is up to you. We have all made decisions that we would change if we had to do it over again.
To be against college for personal reasons and guide a child against it does a disservice to them, the same way that it does by guiding one into college that would find fulfillment in a trade. No one is cut out for everything, we are all different. I have a degree and a couple certifications under my belt and I now own a business that is trade-based and will work on the floor no problem.
What good are we to anyone if we hate our life’s work? We certainly aren’t any good to ourselves.
I'm trying to instill in my son to go after what you want to do in life......but have a backup plan if it doesn't work the way you'd hoped. Depend on no one for anything and you'll be further ahead.
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