Confused

K

klebbsta

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 12, 2012
18
0
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Victoria, Australia.
#1
Confused!!

I am reloading for a 204ruger using norma brass. I have just fireformed the cases.. And after I checked them with the Concentricity Gauge - I found that there were only 5 cases that were showing 0.001" uniformity on the case necks. In the photo these are the ones of the far left. The middle were 0.002", and all the others were .003-.004!!

What is going on here? I dont understand why this has happened as I would of thought that once the cases were fired they would be sized as close to the rifles chamber dimensions, thus giving a concentric dimensions.

Any reasons for why this has happened?


Here is the Picture of the Cases

[img:center]http://imageshack.us/f/443/img1027f.jpg/[/img]
 
#2
Re: Confused

I don't know where to begin, or what the actual problem is? Why did you describe these cases as fireformed, is the chamber nonstandard? Are you checking concentricity of fired cases? Why? I think this problem calls for fuzzball's special type of assistance. Good luck. BB
 
#4
Re: Confused

No I dont have a nonstandard chamber however Ive used this term fireform to describe the process of how new (pre-fired) cases change dimension once they are fired... "Fireformed". Maybe not the correct term to use here, but thats what I am referring to.

Im not interested in arguing over terminology here, Im just trying to find answers.

Hope that helps you buzz
 
#6
Re: Confused

I'll try that.

Im wondering if its got to do with how i extracted some of the cases. Since the necks have been turned, even minimally, they are quite thin. So perhaps that might be the reason for why the uniformity of the necks are showing discrepancies?
 
#7
Re: Confused

uniformity,concentricity,and (perfect)chamber dimension can be a dream or a nightmare_ generally only benchrest shooters can reasonabily afford to pursue this "perfect world's"dream,thank to special case preppin' tasks,adequate time,tools,skills,and related custom rifle chambers_even with all above,and the money involved,all START with the best brass selection of their best brass:this selection is exactly what is showed in your picture (nothing wrong with it)_ the next step is up to you,or better,quoting mr.dbateman,"What are you wanting to do with this ammo?"_
 
#8
Re: Confused

with my reloading what I always want is the most accurate round that i can produce.

Just wanting a round suited for accurate shots at foxes 2-400 yards away.

Also to do some long range target shooting (600yards) with it.

thats what I want out of it, bateman
 
#9
Re: Confused

I see.

Your right wile, all I want is produce the best reloading that I can achieve personally so that i can get the best accuracy for shooting at long ranges.

Everything matters the further the distance, right? So I want to put all the effort in maintaining that level of detail. Some of my friends thinks its over and beyond what is required. But to me, some methods that are extreme actually make logical sense to me for maintaining accuracy.

smile.gif
appreciate your comment
 
#10
Re: Confused

I think there's a reasonable difference between practical accuracy and absolute accuracy. Absolute accuracy for the sake of principle is admirable, but in practical terms, it opens up a Pandora's Box of issues that may not be relevent to the kind of shooting most of us here are doing.

Accuracy is like a racer's definition of speed. Speed costs, how much can you afford? The same is true of accuracy, and only part of the currency is measured in cold cash. Valuable shooting time, confusion, and frustration are also costly expenses.

Rather than insisting that my ammo be the most perfect I can possibly achieve, I have grown to choose providing ammo that shoots well enough not to restrict my personal performance.

There is a world of difference between two such choices, and for me and many others here, that difference defines the degree of enjoyment that derives from all those shooting-related activities.

When I find that my goals are not supported by the basic level of accuracy my basic ammunition provides, I know from experience what additional steps will help, and I am perfectly willing to alter my handloading efforts to include them. But first comes the actual need.

Life is long enough to allow such choices; impatience is always expensive.

Find out what is actually necessary to defeat your chosen target, then stick to only doing what you actually must.

Start simple, then add while evaluating any real gain. After time, evaluate the combined gain and rate it against the real cost of any real improvement. Only you can decide its comparative worth.

Greg
 
#11
Re: Confused

I think you may be putting a bit to much effort into your ammo seeing as you're blasting foxes and punching paper out to 600yds.

I don't turn necks but I have played around with all sorts of stuff trying to get just a little more out of my rounds and then I decided that it more fun to shoot.

If like you say you're happy with your method use it.

Happy hunting.
 
#13
Re: Confused

I guess what strikes me is the problem, defined, without a motive. Okay, now we have foxes and targets at 600 yards, but no data?

People derive all kinds of satisfaction from measuring stuff and evaluating stuff. Here's the thing. I am also not interested in arguing over terminology, I'm looking for clarification because your question raises a lot more questions.

You have a factory Ruger 204 and it looks like you are wanting to do things that hardcore match shooters and benchrest people do, but you don't yet have a specific reason for doing it.

I'd like to see reports/data on before and after your measuring, on paper. I think you have focused on "concentricity" without justification. Stacking up a handful of cases for photos doesn't help, at all? You know that pulling the expander ball over unlubed necks can cause concentricity issues, right?

I am just reading the tea leaves, and assure you, I am trying to help. What I think is that you are a relatively inexperienced shooter who has absorbed a lot of reading, and have a somewhat unrealistic concept about component perfection, or lack thereof.

Yes, "fireformed" is a valid term but most of us would just say, this is once fired brass. I would want to know how you sized these cases, the type of die used? As has been said, I USUALLY check concentricity <span style="text-decoration: underline">after</span> seating bullets. You may be the type that enjoys measurements? I usually wait until I have a problem before I get motivated. What if your non-concentric reloads shoot better than the factory ammunition? Now what?

In this situation, we have imperfect components, which are a fact of life, capacity, length and other things that we can measure. Accuracy is such an illusive little bitch. Don't expect too much from a factory barrel. BB
 
#14
Re: Confused

The concentricity of fired cases doesn't matter. If you care about it - and it may not matter for your intended purpose - measure the concentricity of your loaded rounds.
 
#15
Re: Confused

the goal of any brass selection task is to find,among a given batch, the best,the average,and the sub-standard cases_(it's true that more money spended in a larger batch will give a larger percentage of "the best",of course,but following this line of thought we can start a never-ending-spending story) _among other bonus,we hope that a quality brand can give us a better percentage of the first,but WILL be a percentage,anyway_said that,we can decide if and/or how much prepping it_ we also know that overmassaging the worst,they can be bettered,but never at the level of the luckyer specimens of the batch,because we can try to reduce,or mask,but not withdraw the unavoidable inner factory-defects of some of those mass-produced items,at the price of our time and work_ reserving the best for the more demanding tasks(g.e.understanding the real accuracy limits of your rifle),the average for more mundane employemens,the worst for testing charges,practicing,etc.,can be a reasonable option_for sure the best answer about the value of any "extreme method" will come from your PAPER TARGETS_ try some well-prepped against plain cases,try concentric vs. not-so-concentric.,etc._SEE the results and decide if worth the effort,or not_
 
#16
Re: Confused

Thanks for your reply Buzz,

Yep, I get what your saying. And must admit you are right, i havnt had extensive shooting experience. Yet I am trying to get the most out of my shooting by finding the best methods for handloading. So Im open to your advice, tips in getting me closer to more accuracy.

Now I know that I could settle for not going to the efforts, and costs of what bench rest shooters go to. But like I said, Im after perfecting my reloading.
And know that my factory rifle can only go far, yet i want to get practice as I will be getting a custom chamber in 308, which I hope to use at 1000m & beyond ranges.

I sized these cases with Wilson die, -so no expander ball there.
But I did use one when I neck turned.
I did measure them once i loaded them and they were 2-3 thou. some 4.

The reason buzz why I asked this question, is because I assume that the chambers of all rifles are within 2 thousandths. Is this true? or do I abandon that idea?

So thats why Im wondering why the cases are still non-concentric.

There is no problem with accuracy however..

[img:left]http://imageshack.us/f/696/39650010151204102465450.jpg/[/img]
 
#19
Re: Confused

Did you measure the neck wall thickness at four points and record the data? If the neck wall thickness is not uniform firing it in your gun will translate the non-uniformities to the case. This is one reason why people neck turn their brass. Sorting is the next best thing but you may go through a lot of brass to find a few you like.
 
#21
Re: Confused

How are we sure that those cartridges with that good concentricity are being fired in chambers that are, themselves, acceptably concentric?

This is another reason why I favor SAAMI chambers, where ammo concentricity has a limited accuracy value.

Greg
 
#22
Re: Confused

your runout on cases is`nt that bad.and on loaded rnds. you get .004" max..... that`s not bad either..... one way to circumvent this problem in to seat bullets into the lands.....
this will align bullet and case.... so just the cases base is touching boltface with bullet being centered in rifling.This stystem works when rifle is throated for bullets being used.
It works for me....... and many others.
 
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