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Gunsmithing Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

#51
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keith, how are your instructors suggesting you true the receiver lug abutments? are they having you set up the receiver true to the raceway center line? if so, while it is set up true in the lathe, you should thread a mandrel into the receiver and check the run out at a couple places on it. that is the direction your chamber is going to be pointing in relation to the bolt face. if there is no run out, then i don't see any benefit to chasing the threads. i bet there is going to be significant run out though. </div></div>

Using a mandrel. It chases the threads and cuts the abutments at the sane time, off the raceway. Takes minutes. Then face off with facing mandrels that goes off the abutments, then true bolt seperately.

That takes an hour or two
 
#52
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, I haven't decided on anything. Just saying some stuff we're taught.
And 1.045 is a little small I shouldn't have said that small just making a point.

A few thou off the major will make it snug up square.
Using a thread chasing mandrel is a good idea but those don't open the thread size up like recutting it does.


Tell me what's wrong with using those? I think PT&G even sells one.
Run one of those in, then put it on a mandrel for facing, then true the bolt with a driver and a steady rest.
Do that, then barrel as normal.
That's the way we're being taught. No action spiders. No recutting the threads in a lathe. </div></div>

a thread chasing mandrel like the one ptg sells centers off the receiver raceway, the same way those of us using a truing jig do. it is a different method that achieves the same thing, threads square to the receiver raceway center line. you are not chasing the threads to make them larger, you are enlarging them because that is what it takes to get them true to the center line.

i have not payed much attention to the kit ptg sells but if it follows the center line of the raceway like i think it does, if the tap portion of it is only 1.063-16 and the factory threads are off center like most of them are, you will end up with an oval thread because it will only cut on one side. now if the tap portion is larger than the oem thread pitch diameter, it will cut all the way around and make it square to the centerline, like i feel it should be.
 
#53
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keith, how are your instructors suggesting you true the receiver lug abutments? are they having you set up the receiver true to the raceway center line? if so, while it is set up true in the lathe, you should thread a mandrel into the receiver and check the run out at a couple places on it. that is the direction your chamber is going to be pointing in relation to the bolt face. if there is no run out, then i don't see any benefit to chasing the threads. i bet there is going to be significant run out though. </div></div>

Using a mandrel. It chases the threads and cuts the abutments at the sane time, off the raceway. Takes minutes. Then face off with facing mandrels that goes off the abutments, then true bolt seperately.

That takes an hour or two </div></div>


wait, now you <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> chasing the threads?
 
#54
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I have two 700's apart right now and one of them has broaching marks going through the threads on one side........now I'm no expert but that to me is a sign that things just aren't right. It will be getting single pointed before barreling.
I'm not sure if this is common on the remmy's? I have heard of it before with older model 70s
 
#55
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keith, how are your instructors suggesting you true the receiver lug abutments? are they having you set up the receiver true to the raceway center line? if so, while it is set up true in the lathe, you should thread a mandrel into the receiver and check the run out at a couple places on it. that is the direction your chamber is going to be pointing in relation to the bolt face. if there is no run out, then i don't see any benefit to chasing the threads. i bet there is going to be significant run out though. </div></div>

Using a mandrel. It chases the threads and cuts the abutments at the sane time, off the raceway. Takes minutes. Then face off with facing mandrels that goes off the abutments, then true bolt seperately.

That takes an hour or two </div></div>


wait, now you <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> chasing the threads? </div></div>


He's using a tap that is on a mandrel that fits in bushings in the bolt raceways. The other tool also uses bushings in the raceways and does the action face and lugs in one go. PT&G sells a complete setup.
 
#56
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

keith, is this what you are using? http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7701/Product/RECEIVER_ACCURIZING_SYSTEM

if so, that is in theory doing the exact same thing as dialing in the receiver with a truing jig and a mandrel in the raceway. i think single point in a lathe is going to give a better finish. also, with the method i use, all cuts are done in one setup so they have no choice but to be square with each other.
 
#58
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

Egos of men in general and 'gunsmiths' in particular sure do create alot of drama at times
smile.gif


This thread is starting to remind me of the now infamous 'Critter Capper' that was posting on here. A snot nosed 17yr old kid that stood with a caliper in one hand and his dick in the other while a friend barreled his rifle. It shot well and was the best there was according to his posts. One rifle, one experience and he was telling everyone that using a new or FL sized case was the way to headspace and all kinds of stupid shit from his one experience with one brand of barrel. Argued with the likes of George Gardner, A J Brown and Al Nyhus and a couple of us peons and "fu**ers" was another name we acquired. In his mind he was already famous and was 1 rung from the top of the "I am the best" ladder. Now I am indeed a hobby machineist but doing it "my way" have built some rigs that shot well for me and I am happy. However, to be a student and argue, critique and condemn practices by some who have literally yrs of hands on experience in not only smithing but machineing makes my little fat belly jiggle when I laugh
smile.gif
I sure am glad I don't have the desire to defend my ego, my methods nor my machineing skills on the net with gents I have no clue about their experience and reputations.

To still have to say "my teacher said" is NOT a good defense of your knowledge nor your abilities. Also to say machineing a barrel tenon to .017 under diameter in order to get a sqaure fit on barrel and receiver is kinda funny
wink.gif
I RARELY discuss how I do my own barrel jobs etc as I have found the net a poor place to share as you will generally get an argument irregardless of how you do it because of the "my dick is bigger than your dick" mentality.

From my yrs of reading posts here there are some super machineist and gunsmiths that frequent these forums. While I may on occassion build a rifle that will outshoot theirs I would NEVER claim it was because I knew more then they or had more experience. The older members seem to always somewhat resent the NEW guy and the NEW guy seems to always need to "strut his stuff" a bit. It does make for some humorous reading but my guess is most of you experienced fellas could build 10 rifles each and there wouldn't be a huge difference in how they performed when averaged out. If you "give a shit" about the product you turn out then there is little doubt it was done right. Pride probably makes a bigger difference than a few thousandths in some places.

Agree to disagree on anothers methods. If you are happy with your work, your customers are happy and keep coming back why would you defend or give a shit that how you do something is better than some guy on the net you will never ever see??? Unless it was ego.

I'll give you all a laugh. I thread between centers and then chamber and crown using a steady. Funny huh? Main reason is I use a Craftsman/Atlas 12x36 with a 7/8" spindle bore. Have a like new SB 10L now but haven't chambered on it yet. Might never change my old ways
smile.gif
I don't own something that will read to .0002 or less you all claim you dial in to. Don't give a shit either. Killed many coyotes with my rifles and thousands of dogs, and they don't give a shit.:) Have never built a rifle even using a standard grade Douglas that shot consistently over 3/4moa. Most easily shoot 5 rds under 3/4moa and I am a happy camper because I did it myself.

So to you guys who really know what you are doing and are willing to take the time to share I thank you. Even if I never do it your way at least I will realize that being anal about your setup/work is a good thing. For those who have yet to have their own shingle and hundreds of hrs of experience and less than a handfull of rifles that have never won a serious competition think before you post and if not I thank you also for the entertainment
smile.gif


I have learned alot from my hrs of reading here on the Hide and sincerely thank you all.

Respectfully,
Dennis
 
#60
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keith, is this what you are using? http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7701/Product/RECEIVER_ACCURIZING_SYSTEM

if so, that is in theory doing the exact same thing as dialing in the receiver with a truing jig and a mandrel in the raceway. i think single point in a lathe is going to give a better finish. also, with the method i use, all cuts are done in one setup so they have no choice but to be square with each other. </div></div>

It does almost the same thing, but in no time. If I save myself an hour or two labor, I can save my customer $50-100
 
#61
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

SDwhirlind, I am still in school. I'm not saying "I've found it's better to..."

I can only relate from what I'm taught.

Thread said, " what's the concessus on recutting Remington threads"
well, wouldn't be a discussion if everyone used a spider and did it the same way.

I hope everyone does do it that way though
 
#62
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

“Strive for perfection in everything you do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it.”

Sir Henry Royce

If all the variables are removed I have no one else to blame for my performance on the day
 
#63
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's opening them up that we're taught not to do. Not that it's bad, we're just told it's not needed. It takes time that is better spent in other ways.
You guys all turn it in a spider right? </div></div>

think about it keith, if you are using the manson kit like i linked (it now sounds like you are), if you are using the non-oversize tap, does any material come out of the receiver? if so, you realize that it is probably only coming off of part of the threads and making it oval. it is going to do this unless the threads were perfectly aligned with the raceway center line, the tap would not remove any material, unless the existing threads tapered in, were undersized or were oval. going 10 over makes sure a the threads are centered, straight, round and taper free.
 
#64
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I'll go one further.

It's one thing to assume the threads are concentric to bore center and running reasonably parallel.

I'll even go so far as to venture that they are pretty close.

But what if they aren't? Tools wear, people have bad days cause the ol lady left em, offsets aren't quite what they are supposed to be, etc. Toyota builds a hell of a car yet there's a world wide recall on em right now for sticky gas peddles. . .

I clean them up because then I know they are what they should be. I then fit the barrel and treat it as an individual. What you need to realize Keith is there is a good percentage of people out there in gun world who are very willing to spend good money for a job-the catch is they want the confidence that they are getting their money's worth.

To kill this horse some more I try to talk folks out of it by charging a ridiculous amount of money for completely reworking an action. That means the ring, helical fluting, new fire control, external release, TIG'n the handle, etc. Everything you can think of to do to an action.

Reason is for the same price of the receiver/labor they can upgrade to a custom action and have a much more robust platform. More features, better cosmetics, and less brain damage for me because all I have to do is screw a barrel on it.

I shoot myself in the foot because I actually lose money on the deal by tossing the potential labor charge to the custom action maker. I'm ok with that because its a better product than what's found at the clearance rack at Cabellas. I'd much rather work on a shiny new Corvette than shoe horn a big block in an old beater Camaro.

I hired a local kid with a wood shop to whip me up some cradles to hang stocks on while I'm shuffling guns around the shop. I gave him very vague instructions as to what I wanted/needed. I wanted to see if he had any gray matter.

He came back yesterday with a first article and short of two very minor changes he was spot on with what I wanted. I paid him happily twice what they are worth because he gave a shit and did it right.

I know I'm not alone in this. If your in business for yourself decide right now what your going to offer to your clients in terms of service.

These silly guns we make are emotional purchases for our clients, very few (1 in a million maybe) are going to use it to defend an innocent, hunt to keep from starving, etc. That being said its something they WANT and when people want something, they naturally want to feel like they were taken care of. It's a service industry, it's not Jiffy gunz where you can get a ten dollar barrel change.

It's not ripping someone off to charge more for better work. If a guy doesn't see the value, trust me, he'll seek his entertainment elsewhere. However its unrealistic to expect me(or anyone who shares a similar point of view) to move towards the shallow end of the gene pool because a guy's disposable income can't rationalize the additional cost.

 
#65
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

a quick and exaggerated drawing showing what would happen if you use a piloted tap that is the same size as the existing threads and the receiver is not square or concentric to the raceway. the black lines would represent the receiver and the pink the tap on a mandrel. in both examples, the tap is exactly the same size as the receiver but it is perfectly centered on the mandrel.

recievertruingdebate.jpg
 
#66
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Egos of men in general and 'gunsmiths' in particular sure do create alot of drama at times
</div></div>

Actually I'm fairly impressed in this thread that the contributors are leaving ego out of it. I believe what has been conveyed is professional experience and what has been taught in a fairly well respected school, not chest beating and whose wee wee is bigger.

Thanks for remaining gentleman in this discussion. It's refreshing.
 
#67
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

The following is what you'll end up with when you use solid and repeatable set ups, you single point cut your work piece and precision machining dictates your every move. These types of results will never happen when using piloted taps.

This is where obsession and precision collide. It's not by chance or luck.................it's the predicted outcome I've come to expect.


Indicated in using a ground, hardened mandrel held in the receiver raceway to less than .00015" Two readings are taken, one at the receiver face and at the end of the rod, about 3"-4" away from the receiver face.
2rg0r35.jpg



Threading and after all truing cuts were made
mtmnt3.jpg

5kq7th.jpg



Chambering after the same attention to detail was used during the indicating process.
33mvgy0.jpg



A common end Result........a .085" group
ma8lmu.jpg




 
#68
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I'll add, I certainly dont have any portion of the market cornered. This is what solid machine shop practices bring to the table and the results are here for all.
 
#70
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

What does Remington go off of to cut the threads? If the raceway is already cut, why wouldnt they go off of it?

300, thats a good example. How off, in that way, can one be?(going back to the above question, how do they thread their receivers?)


Knowing exactly how they make em would answer a lot of things in my mind


300, how long does it take you to indicate an action in with the spider? Honestly, not the fastest time you ever did it in. And have any of you ever fucked anything up doing it that way? Getting in there and recutting the lugs with a lathe tool rather than a piloted hand tool, have you ever crashed your tool and ruined a receiver? Honestly?


For about the 4th time again, I'm undecided. I see the results gotten from doing it both ways, and the results seem the same. If I find one takes way longer and doesnt give much, if any, better results I'm probably not using it. On the other hand if the more time consuming way shows to be the only way to build an accurate rifle, then I'll do it that way.


Bolts...
For truing bolts I dont see any way around a two point spider-like system(either a spider like for actions, or a bolt driver in a 4 jaw and a steady rest)
Either way your doing the same thing.


And William you do do very nice work. All you guys do. Everyone I learn from does, my instructors included. It's hard to shun their way of doing it, seeing the great results they get, and realizing this is a business and not a hobby
 
#72
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very nice.


ma8lmu.jpg
</div></div>

meh, i get one shot groups like that all the time
grin.gif
 
#73
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

This is the rifle that shot that group, on a bipod with rear bag I might add. He was in AZ when he shot it. 104 degrees on that day.

nwkh8l.jpg
 
#74
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I have to agree with C.DIXON True everything, check everything.If its already true the tool won't cut anything. Never assume anything.By the way when people start using the word necessary . I walk away. It's all necessary.Perfection never just happens.
Scot
 
#75
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is a business and not a hobby
</div></div>

Keith, you’re starting off with the wrong mind set. Yes, it is a business but, decide on a few things first;

<span style="font-weight: bold">Do you want to be a Gunsmith or Blacksmith?

Do you want to build Precision Rifles or assemble parts?

Do you want your potential clients to have the very best you can produce or rifles that are "Good Enough" or "It'll do"?</span>

In business there are two markets, no matter what you’re selling.

Market #1 is the discount store, low ball crowd that only cares about price. Business's that fall into this category make up their bottom line by quantity, not quality. It's all about the numbers for them.

Market #2 is the high end crowd. High speed low drag if you will. They know quality when they see it and don’t mind paying for it. You'll never see them in the discount stores or thumbing through the sale racks.

In business there is no middle ground, you either have a high end, quality product or a cheap one. The crowd that wants the middle ground in pricing will always buy cheap. Which market do you want to participate in? Answer that and you'll know the direction you want or need to go in. If a .5moa rifle is all you want to deliver, just go to one of the discount stores and buy one. Re-stock and bed it, install one of your bolt knobs on it and paint it.

There are things I do to a rifle when I build it, machining steps if you will, that I've never talked about on this or any other board. There are only two other smiths that I've disclosed everything to in regards to my procedures. Mike R. at Tac Ops and Mike Bush at Skunkworks. They've done the same with me.

I say all of that to say this........be your own man/builder. Take what you will from these discussions but develop your own style and technique. As long as the rifle drills at the end of the day, that’s all that matters. 90% of what we do is to make us happy and sleep better at night.
 
#76
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take what you will from these discussions but develop your own style and technique.</div></div>

this is an excellent quote. i read on multiple forums, watched videos, searched google, and read books for well over a year before i did my first build. i looked at as many techniques as i could find on the subject and then, using my own thinker, came up with the methods that make the most sense to me. all the research didn't stop after my first build. i keep trying to improve on it and i definatly haven't stopped thinking about ways to make it better, faster or easier. one thing i will never do is compromise what i think is the most quality way of doing something in order to do it faster/cheaper/easier.
 
#77
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">one thing i will never do is compromise what i think is the most quality way of doing something in order to do it faster/cheaper/easier.
</div></div>

Ahhhhhhhhhh grass hopper..............you have learned well
wink.gif
 
#78
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

Why do people call mass produced actions "custom"...it would seem the word custom more fits a "hand modified" action like the Rem. that everyone is discussing specificaly made for a customer...hand cut this, indicate that,pin there,thread dia enlarged, ladada...

Seems counter productive to me, $/time wise. If you dont like the way the factory action comes just by a "custom" "production" one from someone else to start with...aint like your gona use the factory barrel that came in the action at this point anyway...are you.

So my question is: why is a production action called a custom? And do you have a custom Toyota once they put the "fix" in for the accelerator...
 
#79
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

For lack of a better term maybe?

Dunno.

What I do know is I can call any of the marquee vendors and pretty much get an action set up the way I/customer requests.

R/H bolt, L/H port for instance. a different receiver ring length, different diameter, different feed lips, tang, trigger hanger geometry, bolt fluting, material selection, pinned/keyed lug, thread pitch, thread pitch/direction on the bolt shroud, special serial number.

With Nesika there was literally over 100,000 possible different scenarios/options when you lumped every model and feature together.

That kinda qualifies as "customer specific" doesn't it?

Maybe that's a better term.

I've been told that Remington spits a 700 out about every 15 minutes. I'm guessing a Toyota rolls off probably not too far away from that figure.

I doubt Mr. Harris, Mr. Stiller, Mr. Borden, Ferrari, or any other marquee manufacturer does it this quick.
 
#80
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take what you will from these discussions but develop your own style and technique.</div></div>

this is an excellent quote. i read on multiple forums, watched videos, searched google, and read books for well over a year before i did my first build. i looked at as many techniques as i could find on the subject and then, using my own thinker, came up with the methods that make the most sense to me. all the research didn't stop after my first build. i keep trying to improve on it and i definatly haven't stopped thinking about ways to make it better, faster or easier. one thing i will never do is compromise what i think is the most quality way of doing something in order to do it faster/cheaper/easier. </div></div>

It's obvious to me that Roscoe and 300 have summed this up the absolute best....Don't rely on other people to tell you what you think you need to know and then spew it as gospel....Take the initiative to do it yourself and figure it out. That's the only real way to qualify anything....
 
#81
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I was picturing your drawing above in my mind and wondered-

If you got a receiver that far off from Remington, how would they even have built a functioning rifle on it in the first place? How would a round even chamber if the threads are so far off Z axis(on lathe) that the piloted cutter wont even do its job?
That would push the barrel over and in turn, the chamber.

I assume the answer is, its only off a little and the drawing is an extreme... well then why wouldnt the piloted cutter still do its job?


And this is off topic, but how much work/money do you think should be put into a Remy before it makes more sense to buy an aftermarket action? If you look at all a surgeon comes with... at dealer price.... man. Seems almost silly to use a 700 when you add up the price of the parts and labor to make it as good as a surgeon.
 
#82
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

yes, that drawing was quick, grossly exaggerated and not to scale
grin.gif


i have never actually measured the runout of the threads nor the angle. i think i will on the next receiver i true just so i will have some numbers. if you set up the receiver in the truing fixture and get it dialed in dead nuts off the raceway center line, you can clearly see it and hear it as the threading tool is cutting more off of one side than the other. sure some are better than others but every one i have done, i could tell that they were not true. as the drawing shows if you look close, when the pilot follows the raceway and the tap is the same size as the threads, it will be forced to cut in places and not touch other places creating an oval thread.

when starting from scratch, it probably does make more sense to buy an aftermarket action, especially if you want all the bling. if you have a remington action, financially it may be a wash, depending on how far you want to go with it. after messing with a few different options now and having all the bling, i think for myself, i want to stay with a trued remington, oem style extractor and non-fluted bolt. with an aics, i do like the side bolt release though.
 
#83
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

300, here's an idea.

Just take a piece of round stock and thread it to an action as if it were a barrel.

Then just for grins throw an indicator across the outside of the receiver up by the ring. Note the runout.

Then true it up and repeat. If indeed we are doing anything then there should be a change. If not, then the runout should be the same.

I've done this often just to see what things are like. The better actions will typically thread on and "jumprope" less than .001".

I did a Barnard the other night and it was .0005 at the receiver and .001 back at the "tang" (Barnards don't have much of a tang).

.0005" over 8" isn't too shabby.
 
#84
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ma8lmu.jpg

</div></div>

Is that three or five shots?

Impressive either way, but just wondering.
 
#85
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I think the guys doing it pretty much explained the reasons for it and anything I say would be repedative.

Keith answering your question about how far out is a remmy thread. The worst one I did took out .017" of material from the internal threads. This particular action thread was out of center and unconcentric with the race way center line. A tap at .010 oversized would not have done it. I have had a few that required about .003" to clean up. I would say most fall in the .007-.012 range.

All I can say is challenge your instructors to teach you the proper way to single point the reciever threads. Once you do oh say 8-10 of them, form your own opinion as to what you think is the "right" way.

On the same note going to the no thread truing side, I once barreled a stevens 200 in 6mmbr with a 1.25" blank 28" long no nut. The guy was tight on the budget and wanted just the reciver ring trued and a ground lug.

When I snugged up the barrel on a pretty good class 3 thread, I could see a slight gap between lug and barrel shoulder. I torqued that barrel down more than usual and closed the gap, likly distorted the threads a bit as well. He called a week later, said he was getting ready for a shoot and shot a 3 shot group at 800 to get his elevation dope correct. When he checked the target he found 3 holes he said he could cover with the butt end of a soda can. Go figure. A 6br is a much different breed than a 300 rum.
 
#87
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is a business and not a hobby
</div></div>

Keith, you’re starting off with the wrong mind set. Yes, it is a business but, decide on a few things first;

<span style="font-weight: bold">Do you want to be a Gunsmith or Blacksmith?

Do you want to build Precision Rifles or assemble parts?

Do you want your potential clients to have the very best you can produce or rifles that are "Good Enough" or "It'll do"?</span>

In business there are two markets, no matter what you’re selling.

Market #1 is the discount store, low ball crowd that only cares about price. Business's that fall into this category make up their bottom line by quantity, not quality. It's all about the numbers for them.

Market #2 is the high end crowd. High speed low drag if you will. They know quality when they see it and don’t mind paying for it. You'll never see them in the discount stores or thumbing through the sale racks.

In business there is no middle ground, you either have a high end, quality product or a cheap one. The crowd that wants the middle ground in pricing will always buy cheap. Which market do you want to participate in? Answer that and you'll know the direction you want or need to go in. If a .5moa rifle is all you want to deliver, just go to one of the discount stores and buy one. Re-stock and bed it, install one of your bolt knobs on it and paint it.

There are things I do to a rifle when I build it, machining steps if you will, that I've never talked about on this or any other board. There are only two other smiths that I've disclosed everything to in regards to my procedures. Mike R. at Tac Ops and Mike Bush at Skunkworks. They've done the same with me.

I say all of that to say this........be your own man/builder. Take what you will from these discussions but develop your own style and technique. As long as the rifle drills at the end of the day, that’s all that matters. 90% of what we do is to make us happy and sleep better at night.

</div></div>

this reminds me of this commercial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aZLw_KBdqc


Does william roscoe build a mean stick?

He sure does.
nfsdut.jpg
 
#89
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

Sounds like both ways are needed if your going to work on Remington actions.
The more everyone talks about the problems with Remingtons, and even more concerning how the problems differ from one to another, I'm starting to lean towards using aftermarket actions with an integral lug/rail. If you get dealer price, a Remy can cost as much as a dealer priced surgeon if you deck it out in expesnive hardware and spend hours truing it.

What I meant by, its a business and not a hobby, is I'm looking at the smartest ways to make great rifles, or the best way to make budget rifles. To me, looking at prices and labor charges, if you demand an action be as good as you can make one, it seems there needs to be a cut off on the time and money your willing to put into a Remy. If your a hobbiest, you have all day and time is of no concern. Not many smiths can say time is of no concern, and none will say money isnt.

The future isnt known and what I will do isnt made up yet. But right now my plan is to offer rifle packages only for the first year or so. I will build the premium builds on Surgeons, and when I can find a Remy at a good price I'll build a budget rifle on it. Now in reality, the budget rifle will in many cases be every bit as good as the surgeon built ones, but thats for the customer to think about and decide on.
Both/all packages will be tested with factory ammo before being offered for sale. And all will have to pass accuracy demands.

I plan to keep it simple. only build .308s at first, with quality stocks(mcmillan or manners only), and with the best barrels I can get.(I like cut rifle barrels over forged or pulled)
If I get good at building the same rifle over and over, they will be done right, and done quickly. No 6 month wait times, great customer service, and proof targets shot with each rifle before selling.
 
#90
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

Rifles are like car engines. Anyone can put a bunch of parts together and it will run. The key is to know where to look/what to fix when you rifle doesn't preform up to expectations.
wink.gif
 
#91
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

I know theres luck in getting a good shooting Remy out of the box, but the % of accurate factory Remingtons is going up wouldnt you agree? I think youd be hard pressed to find one that you couldnt make shoot with hand loads. Hell I cant afford a full build right now so my rifles barreled action is a 243 sps. I did put it in an A5 and do some little things to it, but hell it shoots as good as I can hold it. so do my buddies 4 factory Remingtons. All shoot half MOA.

Whats up with that? Remington seems to be able to mass produce rifles that shoot under 1MOA, and many times much better.

Seems the price difference between $700, and $3000 rifles only gets customers another 1/2 minute or so of accuracy. I know that 1/2 minute means the world. I'm just sayin
 
#92
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seems the price difference between $700, and $3000 rifles only gets customers another 1/2 minute or so of accuracy. I know that 1/2 minute means the world. I'm just sayin </div></div>

there is much more difference between a $700 oem rife and a $3k custom than just accuracy.
 
#93
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

Look what you have to do to a Remy to get them to shoot 1/2MOA, now run a custom. How many shots till the barrel settles after cleaning, how many shots before accuracy goes to hell? How does the Remy hold up accuracy wise when the barrel gets hot?

Generally speaking, a factory rifle will shoot one or two loads well, a custom will shoot many loads great.
 
#95
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

We've been talking about accuracy this whole time. Not $2300 worth of fit or function.

I use a mcmillan stock and am so used to it, factory stocks feel horrible. So do 5lb triggers. I totaly know what your saying. But we've been discussing accuracy potential
 
#96
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've been talking about accuracy this whole time. Not $2300 worth of fit or function. </div></div>

you just brought the price difference up and implied that all you were getting is better accuracy. the truth is, you are getting much more than that.

now if you wanted to compare a $700 oem rifle with a $700 oem rifle plus a $300 barrel, $500 worth of fitting and action truing and $200 bedding for a total of a $1700 rifle, then maybe you would have just an accuracy/price comparison.

(those were just hypothetical prices, i haven't paid anyone for those services so i may be way off)
 
#97
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

AZ,

Can you thread via single point on a lathe?
Have you ever trued a Remington 700 Receiver & Bolt?
Have you ever threaded and chambered a Barrel?
Have you ever built a complete rifle?
 
#98
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

Oh and just to clear something up I mistated, the particular rifle I was talking about that was recently made at school and tested was made by a student who works very closely with the instructor, is good friends with him. It was made the way we are taught, and shoots great. That was the point, and extra information was irrelevant. Credit should be given where credit is due though. Good job Gregg!
 
#99
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

William, yes, no no and no. If I had, I would have said I have and would have posted the results. I've been lucky enough to have a lathe I can play with at home, and obvisouly use to make knobs, but whats in my head comes mostly from reading and watching and what I'm told. We've made mandrels for facing a receiver. Used it. But thats not truing anything except the face to the lugs. Wouldnt even use one doing it your way with a spider cause you can true everything in the spider


Been in school about 8 months. Alsmot done with year one. I watch very closely at the work the 2nd year guys do because I know thats whats coming up for me. I see how they do things, and some of how theyre being taught.

There are some amazingly nice projects being done by some of the 2nd year guys.
the school has to focus on sooo much more than making rifles. We've made hand made english walnut stocks, we're doing our second one right now. We're learning about every friggin shotgun/pistol/lever action you'd normally come across. Plus we have basic machine class. Oh and rifle finishes like costic bluing, nitre bluing, slow rust...

Theyre teaching us a LOT. Bolt action rifles is only one small part of the class. Remember, not every knows Accurate rifles are the only things that matter
smile.gif

Some people want to be professional stock makers, or finishers, or 1911 smiths, or trap gun smiths, or african rifle smiths... the list goes on.

 
#100
Re: Consensus on recutting remington 700 threads

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been lucky enough to have a lathe I can play with at home, and obvisouly use to make knobs, <span style="text-decoration: underline">but whats in my head comes mostly from reading and watching and what I'm told.</span> </div></div>

wink.gif
 
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