Suppressors Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

[varmint slayer]

So what happens and what steps should be taken if a guy legally owned a suppressor but gets in trouble and becomes a convicted felon? I ask because a guys sister's husband that I work with may be faced with this very scenario and she doesn't know anything about suppressors and the laws. I told her that I think if he becomes convicted of a felony, that the best thing to do first would be to get the suppressor to a dealer and let them take possession if it because the suppressor is not on a trust so she legally can't keep it or do anything with it. After the dealer has it can the dealer just transfer it to another buyer? Would the dealer need the newly convicted felons permission to take possession of the suppressor and sell it or do you loose that right upon conviction? Seems like a situation that could get a little sticky in a hurry.

Anybody gone through this scenario?

 

[DroidSniper]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

I think she would actually have to surrender it to a LEO. If she legit thinks shes gonna go down I would start trying to sell it now. Very interesting question though would love to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about. Maybe she can plea down?

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

Well actually it is her husbands. Forgot to put that in there. I'll edit the original to state that.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

it's need to be form 4'd to a dealer, who could then form 4 it to a new owner...

 

[Lazlo]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

If he's dealing with a felony conviction, I would assume the guy's sister's husband in question is probably in regular contact with a criminal attorney. I would recommend he seek their advice on this matter, as the attorney can open up a dialogue with the authorities without further complicating matters.

Whatever is said on this thread, I would not substitute it for legal advice from a licensed attorney. I would, however, be interested in what advice she might receive.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's need to be form 4'd to a dealer, who could then form 4 it to a new owner...</div></div>

But if the husband becomes a convicted felon before he does a transfer to the dealer, does the dealer take possession of it before the form 4 clears? I would think that since he is now a felon he can no longer posses it even though he is waiting on a transfer.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

yes varmint... so, as someone else recommended, start the sales process ASAP...

FYI, a proper trust would have solved this issue, before it became and issue...

BUT... the suppressor can be sealed in a lock box, turned over to an "agent" (the wife, attorney, etc) and remain sealed, until the form 4 is processed

 

[biffj]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

ATF or whoever is in charge of the local Law enforcement situation can keep it til a transfer is completed or they may ask a local Dealer to hold it. If he is convicted he can't have access to it so it has to go somewhere. Until he's convicted they can't really do much. The attorney should be able to help out with this but he needs to be informed. He can contact the appropriate authorities to take care of it.

Frank

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes varmint... so, as someone else recommended, start the sales process ASAP...

FYI, a proper trust would have solved this issue, before it became and issue...

BUT... the suppressor can be sealed in a lock box, turned over to an "agent" (the wife, attorney, etc) and remain sealed, until the form 4 is processed</div></div>

Yeah I hear yeah on the trust.

Ok so what if the husband gets convicted and goes to jail without starting a transfer process? I ask because I don't see him selling it or doing anything with it before/if he goes to jail. He is has gotten into meth pretty heavy and at this point not making the best decisions. What happens if he ends up in prison and she is left with the suppressor in the house? Would he have to do a transfer from prison? What if he refuses to do a transfer to a dealer even though he can't have it when he gets out? Does it get confiscated by ATF at that point?


Edit- I see biff somewhat answered my questions. Took to long to type lol

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

IF he just refuses to do a transfer and leaves it at the house and goes to prison... she can call the ATF and they'll arrange for her to turn it over for destruction

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF he just refuses to do a transfer and leaves it at the house and goes to prison... she can call the ATF and they'll arrange for her to turn it over for destruction</div></div>

Well that sucks. Would be nice if they would let her sell it to a dealer and give her the money or the money to the kids. Thanks for all the advise Force_Multiplier. I'll pass on some of this info in case it gets this bad. Hopefully he pulls his head out and gets his life back on track and avoids a felony charge.

 

[Ultraman550]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

Is it ridiculous to think that he make a trust right now and transfer it to his wife so it never leaves his/her possession?

 

[dvdt]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultraman550</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it ridiculous to think that he make a trust right now and transfer it to his wife so it never leaves his/her possession? </div></div>

Believe this would still require another Form4 and $200 tax. You'd be transferring it from an individual to a trust. This would not be a tax exempt transfer.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultraman550</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it ridiculous to think that he make a trust right now and transfer it to his wife so it never leaves his/her possession?</div></div>

Well in his current state of mind, probably. He probably won't transfer it either way if I had to guess. A perfectly good 30P-1 might be destroyed if he gets a felony charge wich is a damn shame. Wish I could talk to him and try to get this off his hands before he does anymore dumb shit that will prevent him from not being able to own any guns for that matter.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultraman550</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it ridiculous to think that he make a trust right now and transfer it to his wife so it never leaves his/her possession?</div></div>

Well in his current state of mind, probably. He probably won't transfer it either way if I had to guess. A perfectly good 30P-1 might be destroyed if he gets a felony charge wich is a damn shame. Wish I could talk to him and try to get this off his hands before he does anymore dumb shit that will prevent him from not being able to own any guns for that matter. </div></div>

If you can start the process for a transfer now that would be ideal, if he is convicted of a felony that prohibits him from owning NFA weapons then he can't legally affect a transfer to anyone and they can only be turned in for destruction.

I have seen it 6 or 7 times now and its sad to see them destroyed.

We actually have one that we should be getting in from a LE agency for destruction, they are allowing us to remove the baffles prior to turning the tube into chips.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

So if he gets the NFA transfer started before going to jail, but goes to jail before the form 4 is approved, what happens then? Who keeps possession of the item?

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: Convicted of a felony but own a can, now what?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if he gets the NFA transfer started before going to jail, but goes to jail before the form 4 is approved, what happens then? Who keeps possession of the item? </div></div>

The ATF would have to be involved since he legally is in possession of it until he(the lawful owner) hands over the approved form and suppressor.

If he is in jail he can't physically hand it over and complete the transaction.

The ATF will definitely be involved.

 

[WileyG]

Regardless of what he does now, if he does felony time he can't reside in a home where there are firearms when he gets out. If she and he are still a couple when he's released she'd have to have gotten rid of all firearms in the house for him to live there. At least this is a scenario that I know of in the great state of Alabama

 

[jbgleason]

Regardless of what he does now, if he does felony time he can't reside in a home where there are firearms when he gets out. If she and he are still a couple when he's released she'd have to have gotten rid of all firearms in the house for him to live there. At least this is a scenario that I know of in the great state of Alabama

Actually that's not entirely accurate (although it is what most folks in the criminal justice system will tell you is the best/safest route), in instances in which a Prohibited Person resides in a residence with the lawful owner of firearms - generally a spouse or roommate - the firearm possessor can restrict access to the firearms via placing them in a safe or locked room to which the Prohibited Person does not have access. The legal standard is "possession" be it actual or constructive of the firearm by the Prohibited Person. Not proximity. To put it in plain English, the Prohibited Person can be inches away from the firearm (i.e. on the other side of a safe door) but if he cannot "possess" it then neither party is in violation. BUT this is how the matter is viewed for Federal Statute purposes. AL may very well have a specific state statute and I can't speak to that.

 

[jbgleason]

My suggestion (take internet legal advice for what you pay for it) would be based on what I know from several Crim Defense attorney's I work with have done. Specifically an instance where a prominent local businessman with a roomfull of very, very expensive hunting shotguns took a federal tax evasion conviction and needed to sell off the guns.

The Defense Attorney, as part of the plea agreement, had it written into the court decision that the firearms would be turned over to a local dealer for "liquidation" with all funds going to the defendant (or in your case the spouse). Given that there are NFA firearms involved, I can almost guarantee that having documentation in hand from the court will help expedite assistance from the ATF with transfers and would also assuredly shield all parties from potential prosecution if something goes awry with the process. It would also probably help with the FFL.

So, to echo what someone already said above, get this guy's attorney involved in the process early.

BTW, be aware that the attorney may point out that anyone who is a "user of or addicted to" an illegal substance is already prohibited regardless of a conviction (read a 4473 for the language).

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

My suggestion (take internet legal advice for what you pay for it) would be based on what I know from several Crim Defense attorney's I work with have done. Specifically an instance where a prominent local businessman with a roomfull of very, very expensive hunting shotguns took a federal tax evasion conviction and needed to sell off the guns.

The Defense Attorney, as part of the plea agreement, had it written into the court decision that the firearms would be turned over to a local dealer for "liquidation" with all funds going to the defendant (or in your case the spouse). Given that there are NFA firearms involved, I can almost guarantee that having documentation in hand from the court will help expedite assistance from the ATF with transfers and would also assuredly shield all parties from potential prosecution if something goes awry with the process. It would also probably help with the FFL.

So, to echo what someone already said above, get this guy's attorney involved in the process early.

BTW, be aware that the attorney may point out that anyone who is a "user of or addicted to" an illegal substance is already prohibited regardless of a conviction (read a 4473 for the language).

Going the DA route as described above has been done in the past with success. HOWEVER, getting the ATF to speed things up won't happen, they won't go any faster than anyone else. What they will do is get the forms started and seize the weapons pending transfer but thats it.

If he's locked up he is no longer a "threat" to the weapons. The wife will deal with the Title1 guns and the ATF will assist in storage/access of the Title2.

 

[varmint slayer]

Thanks for all the responses and advice on this out of the ordinary situation. It is unlikely that he wil catch a felony charge this go around but knowing what I know about people hooked on meth, this won't be his first run in with the law and most users end up dealing or having enough in their possession to catch a felony charge somewhere down the road.

 

[Quicksilver]

Not trying to be a vulture or a dick but- im in the market (now) for a thunderbeast 30P-1. How would that transaction go down? If she's interested in selling it before its a problem, I would gladly pony up the cash if its a 5/8-24 thread suppressor.

 

[varmint slayer]

Not trying to be a vulture or a dick but- im in the market (now) for a thunderbeast 30P-1. How would that transaction go down? If she's interested in selling it before its a problem, I would gladly pony up the cash if its a 5/8-24 thread suppressor.

Well she won't have any say selling it at this point as it is not in her name. This is all hypothetical at this point as I said above, I don't think he is going to be charged with a felony at this point. But to answer your question, it would be a 2 stamp process which unless you picked it up for 4-500 dollars, you wouldn't save anything as the 2 stamps will cost you $400 and you can get brand new 30P-1 for 900s with more than half the wait it would take to go that route. Way better off just finding a dealer and buying one in stock or ordering one through him.

 

[Quicksilver]

Roger that- I will just continue with the current plan of buying one through silencer shop in March.

 

[BIG_GUNNUT]

It does not have to be a felony to lose your gun rights. If you are convicted of something that you could be imprisoned for more than a year, you lose your gun rights.

 

[cheshier2]

www.nfaguntrustkit.com

You would not have this issue with this trust. It has wording in the trust just for this issue...
Should be up and running by the end of the month...

 

[bm11]

Well she won't have any say selling it at this point as it is not in her name. This is all hypothetical at this point as I said above, I don't think he is going to be charged with a felony at this point. But to answer your question, it would be a 2 stamp process which unless you picked it up for 4-500 dollars, you wouldn't save anything as the 2 stamps will cost you $400 and you can get brand new 30P-1 for 900s with more than half the wait it would take to go that route. Way better off just finding a dealer and buying one in stock or ordering one through him.

3 stamps if you do it the way it is outlined above. F4-owner to dealer, F4- dealer to dealer, F4- dealer to buyer. $600. Once an item is on a F4 it cannot be F3 transferred.

I just went through this buying a M16. The correct way to do it is have the owner F4 it directly to your dealer, who then transfers it to you. 2 stamps rather than 3.

And for what its worth, at least in my case, the F4 from an individual to a SOT took about 3 weeks, this time last year. No longer than a F3. So he should sell it FAST, and have it out of his posession before the conviction. That would be the smoothest way to go.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

3 stamps if you do it the way it is outlined above. F4-owner to dealer, F4- dealer to dealer, F4- dealer to buyer. $600. Once an item is on a F4 it cannot be F3 transferred.

I just went through this buying a M16. The correct way to do it is have the owner F4 it directly to your dealer, who then transfers it to you. 2 stamps rather than 3.

And for what its worth, at least in my case, the F4 from an individual to a SOT took about 3 weeks, this time last year. No longer than a F3. So he should sell it FAST, and have it out of his posession before the conviction. That would be the smoothest way to go.

It would be 2 stamps. Dealer to dealer is free.

Form4 from the owner to the dealer.
Form3 from dealer to dealer.
Form4 to the new owner.

If a dealer is transferring it to another dealer it is on a Form3 tax free, always been that way. All items can bounce between Form4 and Form3 throughout its life there is no such thing as once on Form4 always on Form4.

 

[bm11]

Huh. I got this straight from a SOT, and I thought he had checked with the ATF?


In any cause you are a SOT, so I assume your info is vetted and more correct than mine. I stand corrected.
QUOTE=Stalking_Rhino;2365475]It would be 2 stamps. Dealer to dealer is free.

Form4 from the owner to the dealer.
Form3 from dealer to dealer.
Form4 to the new owner.

If a dealer is transferring it to another dealer it is on a Form3 tax free, always been that way. All items can bounce between Form4 and Form3 throughout its life there is no such thing as once on Form4 always on Form4.[/QUOTE]

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

If your SOT is saying that transfers between SOT's are taxed then you REALLY need to find another SOT.

Yes, my information is vetted to say the least.

 

[bm11]

If your SOT is saying that transfers between SOT's are taxed then you REALLY need to find another SOT.

Yes, my information is vetted to say the least.

He's just saying that items already on form 4's are not tax exempt. But I get it, he's wrong.

 

[Doogie]

He's just saying that items already on form 4's are not tax exempt. But I get it, he's wrong.

Just sounds like misunderstood, not wrong.

The suppressor is on a form 4 right now. It would be transferred to a dealer on a form 3, at which point it could go to any other dealer free of taxes. Then it would go back to a form 4 from dealer to individual (or trust) which would be another tax.

So going onto or off of a form 4 (or between two individuals) brings a tax with it.

 

[stlshooter]

Wouldn't the individual already be a 'prohibited person' per the standard definitions, and therefore not eligible to own an nfa item? Failing 2? categories: 'Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year' (if he has been indicted, that wasn't clear) and 'who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance'

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Wouldn't the individual already be a 'prohibited person' per the standard definitions, and therefore not eligible to own an nfa item? Failing 2? categories: 'Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year' (if he has been indicted, that wasn't clear) and 'who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance'

The hypothetical is that he legally owns the NFA THEN becomes a prohibited person.