Gunsmithing Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The damage is a tear where the bolt seems to have taken an impact on the nose. I have seen this common damage on many Remington bolts and even some Remington clone bolts. If you will look at any other R700 bolt in that exact area, you will notice that the area torn on your bolt is extremely thin and is easily damaged. <span style="font-weight: bold"> Its sole purpose is to help retain the extractor. I would also share my opinion that the damage has no chance of spreading to any critical area.</span> This is not a material defect but rather a design weakness that puts a very thin piece of material in an easily damaged area.

The <span style="text-decoration: underline">outer wall </span>of the bolt nose is one of Remington's "3 rings of steel". That outer wall is still intact and is in no danger of the effected area spreading or cracking into it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The damaged area has zero function as far as pressure containment during firing. You could basically mill away the entire bolt nose down to the breech face and not effect the strength of the action.</span> What that area does do, in theory, is help slow down some of the high pressure gases in the event of a case failure by making the escape route less direct. Most catastrophic case failures are around the case head/web forward of the rim at the exact point that the case ceases to be supported by the chamber. Again, it becomes strictly a gas flow route not a mechanical means of adding any strength to the action.

Some will even argue that the countersunk breech area around the barrel chamber helps redirect any high speed gas evacuation right down the sides of the bolt body toward the shooter. Many, many other sucessful and famous actions have no bolt nose countersink or breech/chamber countersink.

After sharing my above opinion I would still say that I would want the bolt repaired just to have it back to spec. and looking right. The torn piece could certainly move into a position to interfere with the ejector or any rounds trying to seat against the breechface.

All of the above is only another opinion to be thrown into mix. Sorry if my opinion contradicts others. </div></div>

THANK YOU Terry, exact points I was really trying to make but being a nobody and with all the 'metal experts' knowing way flippin more I wasn't smart enough to overide their IQ!!!! However some will more than likely argue with you also. Some of you would think it is a pound of C4 hanging on the end of the bolt nose just waiting to kill thousands with the next pin drop. Yes, it should be fixed but it is not a "what the fuck are you thinking DO NOT even take it out of the safe" moment.

Ok, now I am done with the girly many shit trashing, I know more than everyone else mentality that this site is getting to be!!!!!!

Respectfully,
Dennis

 

[bcw1284]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">brad,
i can keep up pretty well but the misuse of certain terminology is causing some confusion. the seam is on the bolt body and has nothing to do with the lugs. your lack of knowlege about the sako extractor leads me to believe that you may be the one lagging behind. im only going to tell you this one more time. dont speak to the grownups unless spoken to.
chuck</div></div>

You can keep up pretty well? Bullshit, you really need to get with it. I'm not the one who said the lugs are separate, I simply clarified "poor terminology" that was posted earlier by someone else. I've gone ahead and explained it multiple times, if you still can't comprehend then go sit in the corner and wear the pointy hat. If you don't believe me, ask a smith or better yet call Remington. The bolts are 3pc., sorry if that rains on your parade but it is what it is.

As far as SAKO goes, where did I lack info? As I said, a SAKO alone will not fix this since they can be installed without a bushing in the bolt nose... I provided a detailed picture clearly showing that it can in fact be done but that it is 180* from the crack in this dude's bolt. As far as I can tell, that pic actually supported the statement you made about putting in a nose bushing, since it does look like it has one. Go ahead and show where I posted anything about SAKOs that isn't accurate, you're playing with semantics to try to inflate a poor argument on your part.

You need to get a grip and try on some reading comprehension. While you are at it, try some capitalization. You type like a six year old, perhaps you are the one who should leave the grownups to conduct their business.

Oh, and I'm still going to laugh at you for using broken parts even if it doesn't blow up and kill you. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I trust Terry Cross to tell me that, you... well, not so much.
</span></span>
As for the rest of your little shpeel... was that supposed to be clever? I found it somewhat trite. So much so in fact that i'm disappointed that you couldn't muster anything better. I'll leave you to think about that while I go on to far more interesting topics.

<span style="font-weight: bold">OP- good luck, sorry for the derailment but some folks just need a reality check once in a while. Hope you get your rifle back in tip top shape soon.</span>

 

[bondoscustomz1]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

Ok, everyone please read Terry Cross's post to the OP before making yourself look, let's say, less credible. I do not know Terry personally but that being said, his reputation for building custom guns should be sufficient. That is just my worthless two cents...... Have a wonderful day, Tommy

 

[SDLAW]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

Sooooooo......does anyone have an opinion about this????

I think you all need to go over to the motivational picture thread and stare at breasts until your blood pressure returns to normal.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could basically mill away the entire bolt nose down to the breech face and not effect the strength of the action.</div></div>

Are you sure about this?

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

brad,

you continue to show exactly what type of person you are. i already stated almost precisely what mr. cross said but he is a right and i cant keep up with you? i NEVER stated that the front half of the bolt body is not a seperate piece from the back. i stated the LUGS were not seperate. why can you not understand this? i was also right in everything i stated about the sako extractor. so basically what it all boils down to is that i was right and you can go fuck yourself.

chuck

 

[dmdakota]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">brad,

you continue to show exactly what type of person you are. i already stated almost precisely what mr. cross said but he is a right and i cant keep up with you? i NEVER stated that the front half of the bolt body is not a seperate piece from the back. i stated the LUGS were not seperate. why can you not understand this? i was also right in everything i stated about the sako extractor. so basically what it all boils down to is that i was right and you can go fuck yourself.

chuck </div></div>

 

[Pat M]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could basically mill away the entire bolt nose down to the breech face and not effect the strength of the action.</div></div>

Are you sure about this? </div></div>

? won't extract for shit though

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could basically mill away the entire bolt nose down to the breech face and not effect the strength of the action.</div></div>

Are you sure about this? </div></div>

Yes.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDLAW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sooooooo......does anyone have an opinion about this????

I think you all need to go over to the motivational picture thread and stare at breasts until your blood pressure returns to normal. </div></div>

Excellent! All I needed was a reason.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
? won't extract for shit though </div></div>

Ain' that the truth. I figure get one of those one piece rods ala SKS and keep under the barrel. . . . . .

OK. Going back to breastville. . . .

 

[300sniper]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could basically mill away the entire bolt nose down to the breech face and not effect the strength of the action.</div></div>

Are you sure about this? </div></div>

it wouldn't extract with out the extractor and <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> not magazine feed correctly but i don't see it affecting the strength of the action one bit.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

The portion of the bolt nose that has been turned off will be that portion that would be counted on to retain the cartridge case debris, or a portion of it, following a bad case failure, perhaps from an overload or obstruction.

Of course, this is about safety.

And a certain amount of STRENGTH will be required, in that first ring of steel, in order to accomplish this. But you have just milled away a STRONG feature of the action.

 

[Top Cat]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

Before you do anything, have you called Remington yet? See how they respond and how they want to handle it. They should fix it under warranty as a manufacturing flaw and a safety issue. They may have a warranty station that is local to you.

What you have there is the bolt equivalent of a hangnail...irritating yes, but the hand will still work, but I wouldn't fire it as is.

To repair that, I'd remove the cracked piece and clean it up to unstressed metal and evaluate the integrity of the rest of the bolt head that can't be clearly seen in your photos.

If the crack is limited to just the extractor retaining lip and can be cleaned up within about a 3/8 radius, I personally wouldn't worry about it, but if the crack extends into the wall of the nose, then I'd replace the bolt.

Thin areas of fairly hard steel will tend to crack under vibration. The bolt head is heat treated separately, but that tiny lip could have easily gotten too hard during heat treatment and more prone to breakage...that would be an easy production flaw, and I would be concerned about out of spec heat treatment.

If Remington is going to warranty it, they will want to receive it just as it is, without any modification. Send them the pics and see how they handle it.

TC

 

[300sniper]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The portion of the bolt nose that has been turned off will be that portion that would be counted on to retain the cartridge case debris, or a portion of it, following a bad case failure, perhaps from an overload or obstruction.

Of course, this is about safety.

And a certain amount of STRENGTH will be required, in that first ring of steel, in order to accomplish this. But you have just milled away a STRONG feature of the action. </div></div>

are actions designs that never came with a bolt nose countersink dangerous?

 

[GasLight]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

think about what is being supported by the bolt nose recess. The thickest part of the case, with the least volume. There is nothing igniting in there. The powder column is further up the bore supported by the chamber. The primer doesn't have explosive power. So, during a case rupter at the case head, the pressure is pushing rearward, not radially on the web of the case. The locking lugs of the bolt are what contain this pressure, not the 3 rings of steel. If we are talking about filling a case with pistol powder that has enough strength to blow the chamber and action apart, the ring on the bolt nose recess means nothing...

 

[GasLight]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

Here is a picture of cartridge cross sections... wrap your mind around what is happening inside the bolt nose recess:

 

[longshooter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

are actions designs that never came with a bolt nose countersink dangerous? </div></div>

I imagine that each different action has it's own amount of inherent safety built in.

Thank you.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

If a case is going to experience a major excursion, I will be in favor of blocking as much of the particulate matter (blowback) as possible. The Rem action does this well. Perhaps that is why it is touted as being one of the safest available.

To lightly regard damaged areas, or to defeat built-in safety features of the action, should not be advised, but cautioned.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

Reading through the thread, I didn't see anyone that said he shouldn't get it fixed, if even for cosmetic reasons. I think the arguement revolved around what the function of the bolt recess actually is. And how DANGEROUS a rifle is without it. Sometimes things are about getting a marketing leg up on the competition. When you look at other designs and think about what is happening, the '3 rings of steel' slogan seems to me is a little bit over-hyped

 

[300sniper]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading through the thread, I didn't see anyone that said he shouldn't get it fixed, if even for cosmetic reasons. I think the arguement revolved around what the function of the bolt recess actually is. And how DANGEROUS a rifle is without it. Sometimes things are about getting a marketing leg up on the competition. When you look at other designs and think about what is happening, the '3 rings of steel' slogan seems to me is a little bit over-hyped </div></div>

i have to agree. i still incorporate the feature because i see no benefit of not using it, not because i think we'd all die without it.

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
? won't extract for shit though </div></div>

Ain' that the truth. I figure get one of those one piece rods ala SKS and keep under the barrel. . . . . .

OK. Going back to breastville. . . . </div></div>

Ahh, breastville..A happy place indeed

Like TC said, a common place weak point in design, but not a prelude to catatonic failure. I've shot worse and lived. If you get a new bolt, get headspace gages too.

JR

 

[damoncali]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading through the thread, I didn't see anyone that said he shouldn't get it fixed, if even for cosmetic reasons. I think the arguement revolved around what the function of the bolt recess actually is. And how DANGEROUS a rifle is without it. Sometimes things are about getting a marketing leg up on the competition. When you look at other designs and think about what is happening, the '3 rings of steel' slogan seems to me is a little bit over-hyped </div></div>

Slogans aside, the danger is not that the "third ring" is missing. The rifle would function perfectly well without it. But there is a difference between milling off the ring and cracking the ring. The danger comes if there is a crack in there that has a chance of spreading over time to a more highly stressed area. Some cracks are dangerous, others are not. If Remington did everything right, I'd bet decent money that it is still safe. But this defect is a fraction of an inch away from the most highly stressed part in the rifle, and worthy of concern.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Slogans aside, the danger is not that the "third ring" is missing. The rifle would function perfectly well without it. </div></div>

Okay. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how extraction and ejection will occur, that is, function perfectly well.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The damage is a tear where the bolt seems to have taken an impact on the nose. I have seen this common damage on many Remington bolts and even some Remington clone bolts. If you will look at any other R700 bolt in that exact area, you will notice that the area torn on your bolt is extremely thin and is easily damaged. Its sole purpose is to help retain the extractor. I would also share my opinion that the damage has no chance of spreading to any critical area. This is not a material defect but rather a design weakness that puts a very thin piece of material in an easily damaged area.

The <span style="text-decoration: underline">outer wall </span>of the bolt nose is one of Remington's "3 rings of steel". That outer wall is still intact and is in no danger of the effected area spreading or cracking into it.

The damaged area has zero function as far as pressure containment during firing. You could basically mill away the entire bolt nose down to the breech face and not effect the strength of the action. What that area does do, in theory, is help slow down some of the high pressure gases in the event of a case failure by making the escape route less direct. Most catastrophic case failures are around the case head/web forward of the rim at the exact point that the case ceases to be supported by the chamber. Again, it becomes strictly a gas flow route not a mechanical means of adding any strength to the action.

Some will even argue that the countersunk breech area around the barrel chamber helps redirect any high speed gas evacuation right down the sides of the bolt body toward the shooter. Many, many other sucessful and famous actions have no bolt nose countersink or breech/chamber countersink.

After sharing my above opinion I would still say that I would want the bolt repaired just to have it back to spec. and looking right. The torn piece could certainly move into a position to interfere with the ejector or any rounds trying to seat against the breechface.

All of the above is only another opinion to be thrown into mix. Sorry if my opinion contradicts others. </div></div>


BINGO

 

[Jkob]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

Soooo, do you want to buy one of my bolts or not?

 

[damoncali]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Okay. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how extraction and ejection will occur, that is, function perfectly well. </div></div>

You missed my point. I meant it would fire and not come flying apart. Obviously, the extractor wouldn't work.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

You are correct sir.

How do you feel about the missing ring of steel, in the case of a mishap?

 

[damoncali]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are correct sir.

How do you feel about the missing ring of steel, in the case of a mishap?</div></div>

I don't have much to say on that. It would be speculation. Seeing as the extractor design requires it, I have my suspicious as to its necessity - I'm sure there are others with the experience to give an opinion on that.

The point I would like to stress is that regardless of the merits of any given design, cracks in this area of the bolt have the potential to be bad news, and folks should not take them lightly.

 

[mmtuning]

Re: Crack in bolt! Need to replace? *pics*

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your gun develops somewheres around 40-60 thousand copper units of pressure depending upon the cartridge its chambered for.

The part that keeps all this pressure from melting your face off has a crack in it. More of a tear than a crack, but a surface inclusion no less. One that can be prone to growing over time and in the event of a violent case rupture will surely be turned into plasma as it ejects from the breech at light speed. Where it goes from their is anyone's guess. Hopefully not your face, but all bets are off at that point.

This nutz n bolts synopsis hopefully suggests something to you.

</div></div> Well, according to Chad's comment above, pay up your life insurance, make sure you have health insurance, and start shooting plus p ammo in a rapid fire manner. If it doesn't fail and you don't get mamed, the bolt doesn't need replaced.