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Gunsmithing Cracking cases- need input

#51
Milo 2.5 said:
Explain your annealing process, dwell times, glowing red, melt tempilaq, etc...
Click to expand...

Milo, it does not make any difference what annealing process was used. In earlier thread in reloading section, and perhaps somewhere in this thread as well, OP states that all failures occurred inside of three firings and that the brass was bought new and had NEVER been annealed since purchased.

OP, or his brother, has also not reloaded the brass for a fourth time. Failures occurred after third firing.
 
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#52
Milo 2.5 said:
If you could explain as why that is relevant here, we could discuss it. Primers look fine.
Click to expand...

In cases of excessive headspace upon firing the primers can back out slightly and look like the primers in the pics. If you observe closely it appears the primers do not appear to be flush or below and the edges of the primers are sharp, not rounded. Also the primers appear to have marks on them from the bolt face.
 
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#53
pell1203 said:
Milo, it does not make any difference what annealing process was used. In earlier thread in reloading section, and perhaps somewhere in this thread as well, OP states that all failures occurred inside of three firings and that the brass was bought new and had NEVER been annealed since purchased.

OP, or his brother, has also not reloaded the brass for a fourth time. Failures occurred after third firing.
Click to expand...
You're right, thanks
 
#54
Long Range 338 said:
In cases of excessive headspace upon firing the primers can back out slightly and look like the primers in the pics. If you observe closely it appears the primers do not appear to be flush or below and the edges of the primers are sharp, not rounded. Also the primers appear to have marks on them from the bolt face.
Click to expand...
IME with excessive headspace or too much bump, the case comes apart above the rim, does not blow necks off. Either his brass is junk, or his die or chamber is causing this IMO.
Either way, he needs to quit firing this brass.
 
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#55
SWWI Shooter said:
I know what you're saying and I hesitated to post that picture as it looks worse in the picture than what it actually is.
Click to expand...

Just going by the pics from yesterday and today, it looks like:

1. The case mouths to me look like they are starting to round as if the overall case length is long. This will cause the case mouth to bite down on the bullet and cause excessive pressure.

2. The picture from yesterday showing the fired brass appeared to show some shiny belts around the lower end of the cases as if they have some stretch.

3. Those primers look like they are starting to back out and flatten. The top case in the head stamp pic looks like it has an extractor mark at the 12 o'clock position.

Those pictures might be misleading, but all this looks like excessive pressure.
 
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#56
If I wanted to purposely load and fire a piece of brass in a manner that would make the neck come off in three firings, I don't know what I would do.

So, based on the information provided, I'm going with faulty brass.
 
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#58
eastexsteve said:
Just going by the pics from yesterday and today, it looks like:

1. The case mouths to me look like they are starting to round as if the overall case length is long. This will cause the case mouth to bite down on the bullet and cause excessive pressure.

2. The picture from yesterday showing the fired brass appeared to show some shiny belts around the lower end of the cases as if they have some stretch.

3. Those primers look like they are starting to back out and flatten. The top case in the head stamp pic looks like it has an extractor mark at the 12 o'clock position.

Those pictures might be misleading, but all this looks like excessive pressure.
Click to expand...
The primer or primer pocket is still the weakest link, primers would separate from the pocket long before a neck flies off.
 
#60
If you are using a seating/crimp die check that the die body is adjusted correctly. Should it be to low, or the necks be to long, it would push the neck toward the shoulder and flex that location. With a mic or caliper measure the length of a prepared case before seating a bullet and then after. If there is an appreciable difference find out why. Also mic the diameter of the case body just at the base of the shoulder before and after seating. This is a hard place to measure since there is no repeatable spot to locate to but any large changes, if present, should show up. Should you have access to a case gauge this is an instance where it would come in handy for a quick check.

Also, if the loader is only neck sizing, check how far down the bushing sizes the neck. As above, if the bushing travels to far that would also push the neck toward the shoulder.

Thank you,
MrSmith
 
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#63
MrSmith said:
If you are using a seating/crimp die check that the die body is adjusted correctly. Should it be to low, or the necks be to long, it would push the neck toward the shoulder and flex that location. With a mic or caliper measure the length of a prepared case before seating a bullet and then after. If there is an appreciable difference find out why. Also mic the diameter of the case body just at the base of the shoulder before and after seating. This is a hard place to measure since there is no repeatable spot to locate to but any large changes, if present, should show up. Should you have access to a case gauge this is an instance where it would come in handy for a quick check.

Also, if the loader is only neck sizing, check how far down the bushing sizes the neck. As above, if the bushing travels to far that would also push the neck toward the shoulder.

Thank you,
MrSmith
Click to expand...
Thanks, I'll forward this on to him to check.
 
#65
take a look inside the neck at neck shoulder juncture for a donut. will a bullet drop through the neck of a fired case? if you are not seating the bearing surface of the bullet as far down as the neck shoulder juncture disregard any thing I have said as it makes no difference if there is a donut.
 
#67
pabrousseau said:
take a look inside the neck at neck shoulder juncture for a donut. will a bullet drop through the neck of a fired case? if you are not seating the bearing surface of the bullet as far down as the neck shoulder juncture disregard any thing I have said as it makes no difference if there is a donut.
Click to expand...
No donut there on fired cases. Also checked the cases that cracked but did not separate. No donuts there either. I hesitate to throw this out there as it is going to open up a whole new can of worms but when he first started to reload these Nosler cases (first loading), he got a few in the first 40 that had the shoulder slightly dented. I don't remember the order but he tried the spray on lube and the kind that you roll on a mat. He is now using powdered graphite and hasn't had issues since switching to that.
 
#68
Tight chamber neck and excessive shoulder bump? Something is causing the neck to adhere to the chamber wall, while the rest of the case is moving back during ignition IMHO...
 
#76
Milo 2.5 said:
In your history of reloading, does excessive bump result in neck separation? Topic is neck separation.
Click to expand...

Why are you policing the topic and discussion here so hard? The general discussion is about brass and we are merely pointing out indications of pressure. If a case is oversized and can move enough to bump a primer, would this not allow for stretching in the head, shoulder, and neck? If you have the answers I’m certainly happy to sit back and be educated. My opinion is that in the sharing of ideas and experiences we all grow.
 
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#77
Long Range 338 said:
Why are you policing the topic and discussion here so hard? The general discussion is about brass and we are merely pointing out indications of pressure. If a case is oversized and can move enough to bump a primer, would this not allow for stretching in the head, shoulder, and neck? If you have the answers I’m certainly happy to sit back and be educated. My opinion is that in the sharing of ideas and experiences we all grow.
Click to expand...
The op wants to know why his necks are coming apart. If I had the solution, I'd fill him in.
So, if he had bumped his brass back into the dark ages and fired it, just the slam into the bolt face will flatten a primer, maybe gas it too(escape),maybe force brass to minorly flow into ejector hole, does this constitute pressure? NO, it means he oversized his brass, and the back end of the brass is going to take the punishment. Primers are not the best indication of pressures. Have you ever tried to fireform brass w/o jamming a bullet or made a false shoulder? <Once again here, the back end of the brass takes the hit, the shoulder gets pinned, expansion goes the opposite way. Case head separation is imminent.
I am not sure if by design, but brass acts as a buffer or shock absorber in your chamber, and tell me, when have you seen necks or shoulders beat up from even extreme over pressure loads, it does not happen. Primer pockets and case heads bear the brunt of it. Even if this guys case mouths could not open fully, the primer will get blown out before a neck separates.
So you go ahead and sleuth the primer that has a radiused edge yet, and magnify the pic to look for a crescent shape mark on a case head.
The op needs to boresope both his die and his chamber, or have someone qualified do it. Or some Sat morning, go to his brothers, open some new brass and continually load the same 10 cases in the same fashion as has been done and rule brass out.
EDIT: We have a reloading forum with many discussions on pressure, overpressure, etc...
 
#78
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CC1638C3-F51B-49B6-84C9-894A93FEAA3E.jpeg
 
#81
To keep anyone interested updated; I did arrange to have someone check the rifle chamber with go/ no go gauges but it won't be until at least tomorrow. I called Nosler today and they requested that I send them in. I also decided to pull a couple bullets from my remaining loaded cartridges with brass that had only been fired twice. Well one came out fine but the second not so well.
bullet.jpg
 
#82
SWWI Shooter said:
To keep anyone interested updated; I did arrange to have someone check the rifle chamber with go/ no go gauges but it won't be until at least tomorrow. I called Nosler today and they requested that I send them in. I also decided to pull a couple bullets from my remaining loaded cartridges with brass that had only been fired twice. Well one came out fine but the second not so well. View attachment 7009235
Click to expand...
If you set the ball rolling with Nosler, wait for their answer, need to eliminate things one at time now. Request a speedy answer.
 
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#84
One other thing that I forgot to add in my last post. My brother checked some of my loaded and fired rounds and it looks like he was bumping them about 4 thou as opposed to the 2-3 noted earlier.
 
#85
pell1203 said:
Yikes!!! :eek: Please make this be bad metallurgy. Staying tuned in for the answer.
Click to expand...
I have a hard time seeing it any other way. No matter what he is doing when loading them, it would be hard to imagine destroying them that quickly. I guess the good thing is that when it gets sorted out, we will all learn something and I don't have a once in a lifetime hunt around the corner so I have time.
 
#86
SWWI Shooter, I tried looking through the entire thread and could not find the following information anywhere. It might help to illuminate the discussion if we knew the following:

1. Neck size of fired case.
2. Neck size of neck sized case before loading.
3. Neck size of loaded round.

Trying to determine how much the brass is being worked by loading process. Also, I’m still not 100% sure if a full size or bushing die was being used to neck size. If a bushing die is being used, what bushing size are you using.
 
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#87
SWWI Shooter said:
To keep anyone interested updated; I did arrange to have someone check the rifle chamber with go/ no go gauges but it won't be until at least tomorrow. I called Nosler today and they requested that I send them in. I also decided to pull a couple bullets from my remaining loaded cartridges with brass that had only been fired twice. Well one came out fine but the second not so well.
Click to expand...

Can you post a picture of the pulled bullet?
 
#90
Edds said:
If I wanted to purposely load and fire a piece of brass in a manner that would make the neck come off in three firings, I don't know what I would do. .......
Click to expand...
I have thought of a way I might could make this happen. I would push the shoulder back too far, seat the bullet where it was jammed into the lands, and, as a bonus, crimp the case mouth onto the bullet.
 
#91
AS Milo pointed out, if you did that, typically the case head would take the brunt of the expansion. The case would normally separate at the base of the casing, not the neck.

This has definitely been an odd problem in this thread...
 
#92
I posted this in the original thread in the reloading forum, but it appears dead over there now. I have my first 6.5 CM, and will be reloading for it soon, so I'm very interested in how this comes out. My question for those wiser than me. If the neck is being undersized with a bushing die, and then expanded with a mandrel, could that be overworking the corner where the neck and shoulder meet? Probably completly off the wall, but I wonder if it's possible.
 
#93
SWWI Shooter said:
To keep anyone interested updated; I did arrange to have someone check the rifle chamber with go/ no go gauges but it won't be until at least tomorrow. I called Nosler today and they requested that I send them in. I also decided to pull a couple bullets from my remaining loaded cartridges with brass that had only been fired twice. Well one came out fine but the second not so well. View attachment 7009235
Click to expand...
I noticed the top of the neck on this case has a very uniformly square edge on it. This is unlike the other pics of cases that you have fired. Most of those appear to have a roll on the outer edge as if they are being forced against the top of the chamber. Are you sure you don't have a length problem going on somewhere?
 
#94
Long Range 338 said:
Why are you policing the topic and discussion here so hard? The general discussion is about brass and we are merely pointing out indications of pressure. If a case is oversized and can move enough to bump a primer, would this not allow for stretching in the head, shoulder, and neck? If you have the answers I’m certainly happy to sit back and be educated. My opinion is that in the sharing of ideas and experiences we all grow.
Click to expand...
The dude is a grade A asshole and can't help himself, that's why.
 
#97
Jake the dog said:
I posted this in the original thread in the reloading forum, but it appears dead over there now. I have my first 6.5 CM, and will be reloading for it soon, so I'm very interested in how this comes out. My question for those wiser than me. If the neck is being undersized with a bushing die, and then expanded with a mandrel, could that be overworking the corner where the neck and shoulder meet? Probably completly off the wall, but I wonder if it's possible.
Click to expand...
A die with a bushing will never actually reach the junction like a regular die can. There is a ledge that holds the bushing in place, keep from dropping into die body, plus bushings are radiused some.
 
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#98
eastexsteve said:
I noticed the top of the neck on this case has a very uniformly square edge on it. This is unlike the other pics of cases that you have fired. Most of those appear to have a roll on the outer edge as if they are being forced against the top of the chamber. Are you sure you don't have a length problem going on somewhere?
Click to expand...

I don't think so as the cases are trimmed as needed but I guess I couldn't guarantee it. The fired cases that I measured were all right at 1.912 if that helps. Obviously, the chamber length is the part of the equasion that I don't know.
 
#99
Rocketvapor said:
Two pages and you jump in with name calling?
Click to expand...
Sure, when assholes start attacking others for having an opinion. There's plenty of damn good reloaders on here, milo isnt the god his overinflated ego tells him he is, he doesn't get free reign to jump on others peoples shit without being called out for it. And honestly, you can go fuck yourself also.
 
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