I'm not sure what my brother uses but he cleans his guns in the garage and reloads in the house so I'm pretty certain that the brass isn't getting cross contaminated. That is the point though- anything that dissolves copper fouling will do the same to brass....Even horse pee which has some ammonia content.
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Gunsmithing Cracking cases- need input
- Thread starter SWWI Shooter
- Start date
There are a few bore cleaning products that contain ammonia, Sweets being one of the most potent. Butches Bore Shine is another.
I’m no chemist, but I would tend to believe you would notice something wrong visually, or an overpowering stench, if the ammonia concentrations were high enough to damage the brass and cause severe embrittlement.
......Are you or your brother meth cooks by chance??
Any chance your Brother can chime in since he is one reloading ??
What products does he use to clean the brass or containers to hold the new or fired brass?
Either of you have a vehicle or equipment that takes DEF fluid? DEF is urea...ammonia....piss.
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For me the two step process work out better because I can measure the neck tension first without bumping the shoulder,then move the case to the body die to insure proper shoulder bump. I get very consist cases when i go to reload. I do anneal my brass with a AMP annealer. It help prevent case spring back. It may not work better but its works for me with some extermination I did a while ago.
Haha, i told you you'd never get a straight answer or honesty. Another thing, if the brass was indeed made by Norma, doubt you'd have an answer yet.
.Are you or your brother meth cooks by chance?.....How do you think we afford all of our shooting equipment?
He could chime in but he is somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico right now on a cruise.
I watched this before I bought my 6.5 but I don't remember what he said. will have to re watch.
I had Lapua with my 308 and liked it but I hunt in cold weather and after reading everything on line about small primers not being dependable in cold temps, it makes me hesitant. Wish they would make it in large primers- I would have bought that instead of Nosler.
Not telling you what to do but my strong recommendation is Alpha. Besides being sweet brass they won’t talk about “horse pee” if you need help.....
Am I confused or is he saying you can’t run a round with a COL of 2.82” in a short action 6.5 cm? (Time stamp 2:19) I am .020 off my lands at a CBTO of 2.225 and a Col of 2.845
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I don't know but my takeaway from that video is that in the beginning, the 6.5 CM had some "birth pains" in the form or some rifles (mainly custom) not being standard chamber size. If I remember him correctly, these were issues he saw 10 years ago so I'm assuming the newer rifles and especially factory rifles are correct. Again, that was my takeaway-not saying that my memory is not faulty.
Well that is exactly what he said, I listened to it 5 times. Perhaps he is talking CBTO which would make sense. For some reason his video don’t really impress me much. I stopped watching them.
I think the horse pee comment originates from the days of the British calvary in India. Ammunition was typically stored in the stables. The ammonia in the atmosphere was causing cracking in the brass cases. They began annealing to soften the case necks and eliminated the problem.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_cracking
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_cracking
Yea, when doing technical support with my customers, I try to not use somewhat obscure historical references as nominclature. I would simply say “ammonia or a product containing ammonia” but that is just me. ? I actually won an award my first year in business because of my approach to technical support and many of my ideas (common sense) were subquently implemented by the largest names in my industry.
So after all this, I'm still confused about what the Nosler guy said. I'm eliminating the ammonia angle and I know I'm not a reloader and may not understand the process completely but can anyone explain to me how a quality die could cause this damage? He said it is overworking the area where the neck and shoulder meet but how can it overwork this one spot and not the rest of the shoulder? Can someone explain to me how this might be possible? As it is, I'm not sure what to try next to solve the problem- other than to get different brass and start over. I'm just trying to figure out if he is feeding me a bunch of bull to clear Nosler or if there could be something to what he is saying. He said back everything out and reset it but as I understand dies, there isn't an adjustment that would affect the overworking of this specific area on the brass. Am I wrong on this?
OK I Just went through this whole thread. Unless @Milo 2.5 says different, I think you simply have a bad batch of brass. This is what my gut and brain are saying here. If you get some new quality brass and this happens again, we know I was wrong. That said, it really seems to be the most common denominator in this thread. Also I would keep an eye for any chemicals that could be effecting your brass.
At some point, you just need to move on.....
At some point, you just need to move on.....
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I think you need to find 5-10 new cases. load-reload them till one fails. This would highlight bad brass, or if the problem continues, look elsewhere. Just don't make 5 changes at once, never learn from it.
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Max, I'm tending to lean in the direction your suggesting - perhaps a batch of brass got pass QC without annealing. Even if it had some incidental contact with ammonia-based-anything and slightly over worked during resizing, it shouldn't have come apart like that after a few firings and reloads.
I use Nosler in my 30-06 for hunting and have had great luck with it. Disturbing to see this problem and their response. I haven't done anything special to it other than run it through a RCBS FL Die w/ a Redding .010 competition shell holder for 8-9 firings. I did get an Annealeze and anneal last time.
I switched to a Redding FL S Bushing Die and 21st Century mandrel for my new 6.5 CM barrel (from .308). I have to say I really love that system. Really seems so much easier on the brass and more precise/consistent. I will likely go that route on the 30-06.
Thanks to all. I'm assuming that due to the lack of comments, no one has any opinions as to if it is plausible for a maladjusted die to cause this or am I to understand that the lack of comment on this means that you don't think that's the issue?
Have you tried different brass yet? I remember this thread from a while back and remember suggesting that but did not read the last 3 pages.
No, I have not tried different brass since the problem developed due to my reloader being on vacation since I heard back from Nosler. That being said, before I bought the Nosler, I had Hornady brass with 3 firings on them with no issues BUT they were factory loaded ammo when I purchased them so they only had 2 reloads. Will load some Hornady up when he gets back but need to work up new loads due to a new lot of powder.
Right. I guess it is possible but I'm 99.9% sure none of those items that you mentioned are happening.
Nosler has been exemplary in their diagnosis process.
Cold temps cracking possibility due to cold short (not really likely, but possible), mechanical or chemical cracking, brass composition (not as likely), longitudinal striations in neck (a symptom) ?
The reference to neck shoulder mechanical damage is possible with an incorrectly adjusted seating die which has a built in crimper.
Yes, I know they are exploring all options. The die doesn't have a crimper.
No. My reloader is on vacation. Hopefully can catch up to him next week.
I don't know. The gunsmith scoped it and it looked ok to him- Guess I don't know if you can tell that from scoping it. I threw away the Nosler brass and going back to the Hornady so we'll see how that goes. Will have 3 firings on all of that soon and it will be interesting to see if that cracks. Interesting thing on the Nosler is when I started looking, there are a lot of negative reviews on line. Everyone likes that it is prepped well but lifespan is questionable as per multiple people . For the price, it should be right up there with Lapua but doesn't seem to be. That being said, people usually don't say anything unless they are unhappy so there may be a bunch of satisfied shooters out there that aren't saying anything.
Inspecting fired brass should reveal marks if this was so. Necks would be expanded the most at this point.
Been shooting Nosler brass in my wildcats about 12 years, 100 pieces have 10 loads, 100 pieces have 12 loads. Have had some attrition, but nothing I was concerned about, or out of the ordinary. Mine is older brass, so maybe not comparable to newer stuff. (22-250 necked up to 6mm, fire formed to 40* Ackley) Nearly identical to 6XC, built before 6XC came out. I'm happy with mine.
Right. I'm sure if all of their brass was junk, they wouldn't sell any of it. Could be that I got a bad batch or the way that it was reloaded. I guess time will tell when I get 3 firings on my Hornady brass although my reloader is backing off of the amount he is moving the shoulder (thought he was moving it 2-3 but turns out it was 4). Now he is just moving it 1 or less so I may never know as we won't have an apples to apples comparison. Makes me mad that I am throwing away $120 worth of brass after 3 firings but I have wasted money before and it's time to move on
This again...
A few points:
A bad reamer not made to SAAMI spec (Probably from PTG if I had to put money on it) has nothing to do with the cartridge as a whole- it has to do with the guy grinding the reamer...
2.850" to the lands is NOT as long as you can go. I'm sure plenty of us here are running magazines that allow up to 0.100" longer. In some factory rifles with internal box mags, sure, but 2.950" doesn't require a long action. Still a non-issue because the SAAMI print is the SAAMI print, and if the reamer isn't made to spec it's not anyone other than the reamer maker's fault.
Check out the SAAMI print for 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition-- Miraculously, it allows for a .007" wide band for headspace variation.
This dude has not the first clue how cartridges are made if he's seriously suggesting that they're not annealed. After every drawing cycle they're completely annealed. Then there are body and neck anneals once you start forming the body/shoulder/neck. There's no other way to do it. Brass that shows the annealing has not been acid washed. Brass that does not show the annealing has been acid washed after annealing... it's that simple.
Hornady makes, and has always made their own creedmoor brass cases... If this guy is that tripped up about an annealing mark... Idk what to say.
That video is an ignorant sham as far as I'm concerned. A great way to stir shit and spread a bunch of misinformation-- as if that's what this industry is lacking. A bunch of unrelated issues that could just as easily happen (and do) with any other caliber combined to try and point out some sort of grand conspiracy?? And at 1 word per 5 seconds no less.
You think no one has ever cut a .308 "match" (of which there are literally hundreds of reamer variations out there) barrel with HS too short to chamber factory ammuntion? What does that have to do with Winchester? Or my batch of Winchester .308 brass from 2008 is different from the bag I bought last week. Well no shit, sherlock! lot-to-lot variance... Anyway.. sorry for not helping with the OP's issue, just wanted to point out how full of shit that guy is.
Agreed, with one minor case of splitting hairs. Hornady (per se, the name) doesn't make their brass. Frontier Brass does. That being said, they are owned by Hornady, so it's splitting hairs a bit.
Your annealing point about the drawing process is spot on...
Curious as to why you tossed the brass instead of annealing it? The whole point of annealing brass is to SOFTEN it. If you have a torch, a drill, a socket, and the ability to count to 5, you can anneal your brass.
Even if you only do 1-2 pieces, just test the idea and see if annealing causes the problem to disappear.
I’d really like to have a look at your brass and will gladly pay the shipping! Please PM me with payment info.
Sorry, I already tossed it. I guess since Nosler told me that I had cracks in it that weren't visible to the naked eye, I figured it wasn't worth the risk to try to anneal at this point.
No real conclusion. Nosler says that the brass probably got contaminated during my ownership or work hardened which I don't think happened. I threw it away and started loading some Hornady brass that I had around from factory ammo. Haven't had much time to shoot since then but did work up a load and no issues with the Hornady and I'm on my 3rd firing with that. Don't know what to think but probably won't buy any more Nosler any time soon since it is a lot more expensive than Hornady and the Hornady is working fine.
