There’s 450 in the Missouri MOST Series alone that’s 1 state and 1 shooting organization we also have NRL Matches 200x 50 states is 10,000
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Rifle Scopes Current state of MOA and MIL
- Thread starter joelinux
- Start date
Because people say what they want to, and are jaded.
Get a hobby. I'm in earnest.
I just took possession of my RPR today. Scope is next.
The hunting community definitely still use moa with exception of us that shoot long range and are used to mil but this isn’t really a hunting forum or topic
There's an estimated 30 million firearms in American hands. Let's take a gander that half that are rifles.
Let's be generous and assume there's 15.000 people in the US heavy into non-traditional precision rifle shooting and so are heavy into mils as a unit of scope adjustment
15,000/15,000,000 = 0.1%
It'll be a hell of a long time before mils displace moa as the scope adjustment unit that everyone in the US learns. Even longer for the 308 Winchester to fade away.
Just in case you're wondering, I have scopes that adjust in both systems. I choose depending on the rifle's main intended use.
That said when I got into the long range shooting addiction Snipers hide was an invaluable source of info for helping me learn MOA and SFP reticle magnification conversation.
Both unpopular even then yet some members here gave me information that helped me a lot.
I can't lie I didn't see this thread turning into the epic MIL vs MOA shit show it turned into congrats.......OP
What's next on the agenda?
"308 vs 6.5CM"
"Do I need a 20 MOA rail to make it to 300 yds"
"9mm vs 45"
"can i shoot 5.56 in a .223 and vise versa"
"single stage or two stage trigger"
"will a 308 kill a grizzly bear at 1.5 miles"
Don't use all these at once......enjoy!
What's next on the agenda?
"308 vs 6.5CM"
"Do I need a 20 MOA rail to make it to 300 yds"
"9mm vs 45"
"can i shoot 5.56 in a .223 and vise versa"
"single stage or two stage trigger"
"will a 308 kill a grizzly bear at 1.5 miles"
Don't use all these at once......enjoy!
MOA VS Mil B/S thread date back to the very first days of this place,..nothing new. Well except we did have a thread called minute of Duck long ago, that bitch was a hoot,...
You are on a long range shooting forum and that is what the discussion is mostly about not the average Joe with a marlin 22 and tasco.
Little speech? I was just trying to answer your question.
“PRS membership has taken off after a couple years of being somewhat stagnant. The PRS is back and bigger than we have ever been, with nearly 1400 paid Regional Series members and 900 Pro Series members! These are the best numbers since the inception of the PRS and we want to thank you for all you are doing to encourage shooters to join our ranks, participate, and become members of the PRS. “
Would have to disagree with that I’ve been in hundreds of gunshops around the country including countless hours in my local and very seldom do you see a rifle leave without a scope
You’ve been around longer than me so maybe not but I would have to say if someone visited this forum for the first time that would be their impression with the forums, training videos , and overall discussion it is for the most with the exception of some threads geared towards long range shooting
- only to add to what you said-
When we add in all positional and field shooters, the numbers have to be huge ~ PRS is like Kleenex -- people use the name to describe more than the brand. Positional shooting or the desire to maybe try it someday, is really driving the innovation right now..
The number of people who consider themselves PRS type "shooters"is way bigger than the paid membership. Hell at our PRS regional series matches, for ever 10 shooters we might have 2 registered PRS shooters.. on top of that I would say that for every 10 shooters we have 2 that want to try it but have not yet worked up the gumption to do so... We hope to grow the number that register.. but think about the implication.. it's like a 6:1 ratio and I don't think we are A typical.
Last edited:
Where do you get your statistics about there being a small percentage of scopes shorters other than handguns which we are not even talking about it’s a bunch a crap. I’m just saying every rifle I see has a scope on it
Why are all the MOA guys from Illinois or Alabama? :0
Oh my lanta that was funny
I shoot both and don't really give a shit one way or the other. They both work just fine for what I do and depending on who I shoot with is what decides what I shoot for the day.
I find these rather amusing just like a lot of other topics around here. You guys get so worked up every time the topic is brought up. Usually the same guys piss and moan, then start another thread or two in the bear pit whining about it ?
OMG you are making the anti MOA point with this "They have been using the 1/4" @ 100 yards since "
Last edited:
I am not worked up..So you are Bi.. that assume.. BTW where are you from?
Don't pretend you didn't creep on my profile before making the comment about Illinois and Alabama lol. Actually I'm tri.
Don’t know why your arguing about scoped rifles on a MOA vs Mil thread. Don’t really care if you think there a are less scoped than open rifles out there you can go count them. Start at my house. Back to the point MIl/MIL especially for a beginner shooting in competition that’s what everyone else is using and you will get accurate wind calls and elevations corrections. In Missouri we allow new shooters calls on the clock first 2 matches everyone is going to give those calls in mils or if you have an MOA scope try. Me and my 14 year old shoot the exact same rifles with exact same recticle. I’m 41 I don’t care how I score I just like to shoot so I always jump up and shoot 1st or 2nd in the squad ( sacrificial lamb ) and then I’m able to give him wind and elevation calls. Yes my 14 year old beats me often but it doesn’t bother me he’s learning and he almost always places in the top 50%.
I was speaking in terms of the whole firearms market. My point is simply that it will take a long time for MOA to die as 90% of the optics in the US market are MOA. We shouldn't discount the hunting segment - where do you think all these LR shooters learned about firearms and got the Long Range Bug? Speaking from personal experience myself.
Not meant to be an MOA bash, just referencing where the majority of shooters have their first experiences with optics. However I'm not in love with MOA, I prefer my MIL stuff. All my hunting rifles have old MOA scopes with duplex reticles so I guess I'm behind the times.
@bschneiderheinze Let me get the crayons out. You talk about moa scopes being useless or whatever the word you used in everything but benchrest and some hunting. Two of us said your examples of prs and snipershide are a small percentage of the shooting world or as I said people that shoot scoped rifles. Do you see the relevance now? I don't know how I can dumb it down anymore.
People are slowly migrating to mil scopes but they won't ever go away and there are still a bunch of people shooting moa and will continue to do so. If I started over, I would have started with mil. I have bought a couple mil scopes and don't care which one I shoot.
People are slowly migrating to mil scopes but they won't ever go away and there are still a bunch of people shooting moa and will continue to do so. If I started over, I would have started with mil. I have bought a couple mil scopes and don't care which one I shoot.
Me either have you had an MRI of the Brain lately because you make no sense. Might want to see the doctor
Nevermind your from Illinois you can’t own firearms
Nevermind your from Illinois you can’t own firearms anyway so it’s probably hard for you to understand
Actually I have, thanks for asking. It came back good. Read the next two posts that follow that one and you still won't comprehend what we have been saying all along ?
And I'm the one that needs an mri lol. Is there an echo in here? Btw, it's "you're".
I don't have a problem with MOA either, the point of my post above "They have been using the 1/4" @ 100 yards since " is not MOA, and the part of the "why" it is bastardized.
The units don't matter, knowing what units are being used does. Then it moves to simplicity of communication, speaking the same language. Lastly for me the simplicity of adjustments for wind the "MPH" of the gun wind call theory discussed in many threads and the podcast.
I
If your nice I’ll send you pictures of my suppressors on my real guns. So you can compare to your toy guns Senator Obama got you guys.
Oh you mean one of these?
"There's an estimated 300 million firearms in American hands. Let's take a gander that half that are rifles."
There, fixed it for you, (not joking). There was a month during the Obama years with over 3 million instant back ground checks. In one month before the election Americans bought more firearms the US military has. Things have dropped back to the 2 million checks a month or so under the "Trump slump" but still that's a lot of steel (and plastic these days) being sold every month. Granted not every check is a new firearms purchase but it’s the best indicator we have at the moment. Here is some recent information on this.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf/@@images/image
And in the spirit of this thread I just purchased my first Mil/Mil scope, Mark 5 5x25, and have learned/am learning how this system works after reading thousands of posts on this site. So far so good. All my older scopes are MOA and I will not be getting ride of them but want to master wind and range calls in mils. Need more time at the range.
It is now, do to fostered demand that Frank built over all the years, an I have to hand it to him for that an what he's built. They early years were lean an I recall about someone asking for a party when we reached the 3K member mark. Even back then there were threads like this one, but this one is kindergarten compared do to the knowledge level of the folks hawking both sides, for the sites theme back then.
That said there are many who come here an after learning a little become full fledged internet shooting experts, an many have been called/invited out. Frank has invited more than a few to just show up an shoot. There were many many times older members have done the same. As reserved as I am, I even went to a place for a scope test to eyeball a guy over a uniform pissing contest we got into, an met people who are very, very, good friends today. It's a smaller world than most know, as most forums here, tattle as to what people are really here for.
Thanks for the correction. That makes the percentange of people who think mils and 6.5 mm rifle cartridges will rule the shooting world even more irrelevant.
Nobody can approach that guy's level of dumb so don't even try. It's like he drank every fucking bottle of PRS kool aid he could find.
other areas must have a different crop of hunters
i wouldnt use "typical hunters" to back up any points about a mil/moa discussion as prolly 99% of the ones i see in my area dont actually understand the use of either lol
i wouldnt use "typical hunters" to back up any points about a mil/moa discussion as prolly 99% of the ones i see in my area dont actually understand the use of either lol
That's precisely the point. To the majority of shooters this debate or choice is completely irrelevant and they will stick with what they have known (even if they don't really understand it).
I don't disagree but I think a lot of the new the prs type shooters and people banging steel mentioned earlier aren't really any better even with their mil scopes. Ever been to the range with a newer shooter with his mil based hst or pst that went that route because of an article or Facebook discussion? I'm going to say that they fall into the same category as the hunters. The windage on the fly formula discussed often in these threads is another example, how many people actually understand or use it? I bet it's not nearly as many as some people think.
you arent wrong...but i wouldnt ever use them for examples or advice on anything either lol
plus, theres a difference between being new, and never learning....the typical hunters i see at the range (and know personally), theres no difference in 1 month or 25 yrs worth of experience as far as actual understanding goes
I don’t understand the argument “I use mills so I can speak the same language at matches”. I know it isn’t very popular here in the U.S, but a lot of people speak more than one language. I’m an MOA guy and if someone gives me a call in Mils I don’t care, I can do simple math in my head. 1 mil = 3.44 milrad, that conversion is not 3-dimensional calculus or quantum physics by any means.
In a PRS/Tactical steel match if you’re trying to do anything but dial, move, and create a stable shooting position you’re probably dropping shots. If you have to stop and think at all it matters. I know I don’t want to be thinking, which is why I have a rifle mounted dope card to dial, and focus the rest of my consciousness on fundamentals and atmospherics. Add in more equations and it would hurt. 90 seconds goes by quick. Not saying you can’t do it, but why add anything? It’s challenging enough as it is without having to convert anything.
Similar threads
