Rifle Scopes current state of the Steiner T5Xi 3-15 - now (M5Xi vs. Tango6 Gen2 vs. Nightforce F1 4-16)

[schlaiek]

I started this thread asking about the T5Xi and my feelings were confirmed - thanks all for chiming in.

the thread has morphed into a mid range high/mid range search thread involving another line from the original manufacture and several other scopes. thanks again all for lending me your wisdom and increasing my budget from $1200 to over $2000 (you guys are really good at that!)

I'm in the market for a scope for a SPR/MK12ish AR I'm putting together. I'm torn on barrels (Kreiger vs. Douglas) and handguards (DD, Geiselle, KAC) but my big quandry is optics.
I initially thought I was going to do a straight up clone, but the availability of the correct Leupold scopes has moved me in a different direction, and while I appreciate the idea of cloning, a $3k+ AR needs to be function over form imo.
I've kicked around the idea of buying a Razor2 3-18, but they are heavy little suckers. I have a gen2 Tango6 in the same mag range that I haven't had the chance to fully evaluate, but it's not exactly light either. The new Kahles is more than I want to spend. I could swing the Nightforce 4-16, but the 4x erector feels sorta out of date.

on to Steiner:
The only Steiner I've used is my P4Xi which is brilliant for what it is - a mid priced, SFP, lightweight, compact LPV with decent glass and a FOV that rivals my Razor2 1-6.
I've read quite a bit about the initial teething issues with the T5Xi line years ago here and elsewhere. I've also read that Steiner's CS is pretty good. The T5Xi 3-15 ticks all of the boxes - weight, FFP, simple mil reticle, illuminated, but I hesitate to invest +/- $2k on an optic that will be a headache.

is the Steiner a viable choice for +/- $2k in the mid power world?

 

[just browsing]

Definitely not for $2k. You could find a Steiner M5Xi/military 3-15 for that money.

Now if you’re talking $12-1500 range for the T5Xi on the secondary market, I would say you’re getting good value. Still probably not as good as the Tango6 you’ve got now, but a good optic nonetheless.

The T5s did have some tracking issues when they first came out but their CS is A+ and the revised turret system is one of the best that you’ll find in that price range. The issues that the early models had were corrected pretty quickly and the new ones, in my experience, have been flawless. Glass quality will likely leave something to be desired on the T series, so I would keep an eye out for an M5 to pop up if you’re wanting top notch performance.

 

[schlaiek]

You'd place the Gen2 Tango6 ahead of the T5Xi? that is a surprise.
I've thought about the M5Xi, and I've seen several nice examples on the used marketplace here well within my budget. My issue with the Military line is the reticles. My brain isn't ready for Horus reticles, and I just don't like mil dots. I could live with them, but I'd greatly prefer hashes (they read much faster to me, and I spend less time thinking and more time focusing on my fundamentals).

 

[longrange2]

You can find an M5Xi in an MSR reticle, I had one and really liked it

 

[JMGlasgow]

The M5Xi is available with the MSR and G2B mil-dot reticle as well as Horus.

 

[just browsing]

I should quantify that... Never been behind a 3-18x44 Tango6. I have, however, spent extensive time behind a 5-30x56 Tango6 and a 5-25x56 T5Xi, and I can tell you that they are not in the same league. The Tango6 and M5Xi would be a much better comparison.

I have been behind a few 3-15 T5s and thought they were consistent with the 5-25 that I had. They are OK for the money but not going to blow anyone’s doors off. But if the Tango6 3-18x44 is significantly different than the higher magnification models, maybe I should try to get behind one first to see the difference.

 

[just browsing]

You can find an M5Xi in an MSR reticle, I had one and really liked it

I believe the MSR is only available in the 5-25 M5Xi. OP is looking for the 3-15.

 

[schlaiek]

hmm. the MSR interests me. I've never owned that reticle and I'm intrigued by it. thanks, I'll take a look

 

[longrange2]

I had a 3-15 with the MSR, they are out there

 

[just browsing]

Gotcha, I’ve just never seen one.

 

[schlaiek]

I've never used a Razor2 3-18, but I've been shooting the 4.5-27 since they were released and to my eyes the Gen2 Tango6 3-18 looks strikingly similar. I'm not experienced enough to delve into the minutia of glass quality like other regulars here but I know (or I think I know) good glass from great and average.

 

[just browsing]

I had a 3-15 with the MSR, they are out there

Looks like they’ve been discontinued according to EuroOptic.

 

[just browsing]

I've never used a Razor2 3-18, but I've been shooting the 4.5-27 since they were released and to my eyes the Gen2 Tango6 3-18 looks strikingly similar. I'm not experienced enough to delve into the minutia of glass quality like other regulars here but I know (or I think I know) good glass from great and average.

If that’s the case, I stand by my original comment. the T5 doesn’t come close to either of those in terms of glass quality.

 

[longrange2]

I buy many of my optics second had and so do others, if you want an M5Xi 3-15X in the MSR reticle they can be had. You can still find a new one if you want that. There is one on Amazon and one on Ebay right now. With a little research and leg work you can find what you want. I picked up my M5Xi 3-15 with MSR reticle for $1500 and it was like new.

 

[schlaiek]

Since I’ve ruled out the T series, how does the M series stack up against the razor2 for tracking and glass quality?

 

[hk dave]

I've owned both and compared them side by side... it's a wash. (I mean specifically the M series)

Pick the reticle and features you want and go with one.

They both should satisfy.

 

[schlaiek]

so I've pivoted and boiled down my choice to 1 of 2(3) scopes.
M5Xi in 3-15 with the MSR reticle
Sig Gen2 Tango6 with the Christmas tree reticle
or, do I splurge and go with ATACR 4-16 in mil-c?

The Razor 2 is just too heavy for an sub 8 pound 5.56 gas gun.
the wonky (to me at least) .25 mil hash marks on the Leupold Mk5 rule it out (I'm just ready to learn a Horus)

 

[lennyo3034]

Has anyone compared the gen 1 Tango 6 to the gen 2? I know they are totally different optical designs but just wondering what the overall impact was.

 

[lennyo3034]

Also, the M5xi with MSR might not come cheap. They are not any cheaper than the 5-25 version.

 

[Bandit31]

I'd go with the Atacr or one of the Hensoldt's from Euro Optic right now over everything else you listed.

I've had the 3-18x razor, the 3-18x Tango 6 gen2, and the 3-15x M5xi. I ended up selling the Razor for an Atacr and couldn't have been happier. In my experience the M5xi can be hit or miss on how they control CA. The one I had didn't handle it well but other than that the glass was fantastic.

 

[ldunnmobile]

For what you can buy the T5xi for on the used market they are an awesome value IMHO. I have two 3-15's.

Great for the SPR application.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Look at the Leupold Mark 5's.

 

[schlaiek]

Redneck, I really look the look, size, and weight of the Mk5. the reticles however, just don't do it for me. I've recently moved to all mil/mil scopes that I might dial (I still have some LPVs in moa/iphy that I won't replace) but the Horus reticles - I'm just not ready for them. The CCH looks terrible/unintuitive to my brain unlike and the .25mil subtensions just doesn't make any sense when I'm trying to train myself on .1/.2 holds, dials, etc. anything in the metric system that isn't in a base 10 can just go away imo.

I think I'm down to the Tango6 gen2 on the cheap end to the M5Xi/ATACR on the high end. first world problems...

issues like this are one small reason why it sucks to live in Minnesota. in many other states I'd be able to go to a gunshop and view multiple scopes ;ike this side by side. I don't think there is a single store in MN that has multiple high/mid end scopes in the middle range mag space. I've see a few S&Bs, but that's about it.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I know you say you don’t want the hours reticles but they have .2 mil hash marks. The Tremor 3 is awesome.

 

[schlaiek]

I would really like to get a nice scope with a Horus reticle, but watching Todd's videos has convinced me that he is much smarter than I, and that I should stick with reticles that I'm familiar with. I'm still new to the milradian world. plus, given my luck I'd love the scope so much I'd want to replace all of my mid & long range scopes with Horus version reticles. that would cause definite wife aggro. I'm building her an AR right (in bright blue!) now so I've got some points built up, but selling and buying 10 scopes would be a little to much I think.

 

[fdkay]

for a mk 12'ish rifle, I don't see how you could go wrong with the NF 2.5-10

 

[hic28]

My vote leans towards the M5xi 3-15 for a small frame AR. I’ve got 3 - M5xi scopes 2x5-25 and 1x3-15 all MSR. They track perfect through the whole range from my testing.

I have some time behind the sig scopes and while they are nice optics with some interesting features, I absolutely hate the zero stop and turret zero adjustments.

The Steiners are 2 set screws, twist and done. With the sig you have to pull the knobs off and mess with the internals and it’s a mess.

 

[blbennett1288]

I have owned a couple SPRs in 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel, a clone correct MK12, and quite a few of the scopes mentioned. If I havnt owned the scope chances are I have been behind one before for long enough to have an impression.

I do not know what distances you are shooting, but shooting the 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel at 700 yards I really prefer to have something with x18 on the top end. I am not saying it isnt doable with x15 or x16, as sometimes I am in that range, simply that I just prefer to have the extra magnification when necessary. Also to note at these distances reticle preference comes into consideration. I really like having 0.2 mil hash marks as opposed to 0.5 mils like the TMR or MIL-R.

Absolutely love the NF 2.5-10x24 but it is a real pain to use in field on anything past 400-500 yards.

Just some food for thought. Ultra sort or SPR optics are difficult to check all the boxes because most of the time they are compromising something. The perfect optic would be the K318 with SKMR3 but that is out of your price range. I think you would be pleased with the NF ATACR 4-16 with a MIL-C, T5Xi 3-15 with SCR, or MK5 3-18 with H59.

 

[Wyzrd]

I was also looking at the 3-15 T5XI for a SPR style rifle, and still might get one in the future. For now, I just threw a Razor 1-6 on it. For my 6.5G AR, I recently got rid of my 4-16 Atacr and switched to a Gen2 Razor 3-18. Absolutely loved that NF 4-16 the only reason I got rid of it was because I made the switch over to mil/mil on all my scopes, and the NF had the Moar reticle. Also nice having that 18X vs the 16X. Anyways, I’ve had a couple of the 5-25 T5XI’s, and while they were good scopes (especially for used prices), the CA always bugged the shit out of me! Maybe I’ll just learn to live with it though as I’d really like to throw a 3-15 T5XI on my SPR. I always like having the extra top end magnification for the longer shots.

 

[schlaiek]

I've thought about the NSX 2.5-10, but my brain simply refuses to spend +/-$1500 on a SFP mid range scope. I've got a ton of respect for Nightforce, but the NSX line is way overpriced in 2018's growing scope market. I also think that mag range has been made obsolete by the growing number of 1-8 scopes on the market.

If Nightforce wanted an instant sale they should make me a 2-16x44 mil-c with ATACR glass! (I'm not an optical engineer, so I don't ever know if something like that is possible, but it would make for an ideal SPR/MK12 scope - that would even make sense for a lot of Midwestern hunters that occasionally go west where they want to use the same rifle, but need more magnification)

 

[VegasHKShooter]

I will throw in my .2. I think the NF ATACR 4-16 is all day a fantastic scope. That would be my choice in that price range. HOWEVER, I have to throw out, again, the SHV 4-14 F1. For the money, this is a super, fantastic scope. The glass is excellent, it’s FFP, it’s 4-14, which is plenty of mag for a 5.56 to get out to the limits of the cartridge, and it can be had for $1100-$1200. The reticle selection isn’t as awesome, but that’s where NF saves a bit of the cost, savings that they pass on. I have several S&B’s, and soon 3 NF, so I’m no stranger to great glass. I’m just saying, you’d do well to at least consider an SHV for a 5.56 gun.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

We've got some great deals on Steiner Open Box scopes as well as access to some other demo's. Please give us a call and we can hook you up

 

[gszeto99]

I have the 4 scopes you are looking at (well the 4th one is coming in soon). I have the Tango 6 gen 2 3-18x44 with the Dev-L reticle, the T5XI in 3-15x50 scope, and M5XI 3-15x50 in MSR reticle. The 4th one is a NF ATACR 4-16x42 in Mil-R reticle that should be coming in soon. I had the exact same scope a couple of years ago and now I am buying one back. To be honest I have not taken them out to the range all at the same time to really compare. I may do that soon and give you an honest assessment.

 

[Dirty8404]

I have an M5xi 3-15 H59 on a 16” 308 bolt gun, and a 2.5-10x24 NF on a SPR build.

The M5 is bulkier than I (personally) would want on an AR15. That said it’s pretty light, top notch glass, and overall is a tank. I’ve toyed with the idea on putting it on my AR but haven’t done it yet.

My opinion is worth what you paid for it, but I would hesitate going larger than a 44mm objective size on a small frame AR. For aesthetics only. I love my 2.5-10, but the 15x top end is really nice to have. I can’t comment on your other choices, but if you don’t mind the 50mm objective size the M5 is gnarly.

 

[schlaiek]

I ended up pulling the trigger on a 3.6-18 Leupold with the TMR reticle. The deal Mile High was running was just to good to pass, and the Leupold checked so many of the boxes. I've only owned 3 Leupold optics (1 right now) but they have never let me down. I'm still waiting on my barrel, but the little I've been able to play with the MK5 it looks great. Compared to my Sig gen2 3-18 it is a featherweight. thanks all for the advice.

 

[.338master]

The M5xi is definately one of the best scopes ever built. Glas is just amazing. Now it is available with MSR2.

 

[KALISPIMENTA]

not available yet right?

 

[.338master]

Of course it is available. Opticplanet should have it.

 

[ChaseCO]

While your opinion of the T5 series is probably already formed I think you would do well to reconsider it if you’re ever looking another optic and don’t want to spend $2K+. Most can be had for $1250-$1500 and on the whole they’re hard to beat from a scope for the money standpoint. I’ve spent a decent amount of time behind a couple Schmidt and Bender PMIIs, Leupold Mark 4s and 6s, and a Hensoldt. Shot ~ 1000 rounds of 300WM and .308 behind a combination of those from midday sunlight into the night behind NV and thermals. I’ve also looked through some Tango 6s and the Razor gen II. I’m not an expert but I do have some experience. After all of that, I own 4 of the T5xi’s. 2 of the 3-15x and 2 of the 5-25x. Peoples eyes are different and people care about different things, but from my personal standpoint, once I set the diopter correctly, dude the glass is fucking outstanding. I mean it’s pretty easy to resolve strikes on steel out to 1300...at least I haven’t had an issue with it. More than that though is the fact that they are built like tanks, the turrets are excellent, eye relief is tremendous, and they have all tracked 100%. Steiner’s CS is also great. I also don’t baby my shit. My experience isn’t from just shooting off a bench in fair weather. Never once have I ever felt like my glass was a limiting factor or why I missed a shot, and I’ve never regretted buying the T5s or had glass envy when looking through other higher end options.