Current US Army rifle qual??

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

Well, the army just graduated 500 from fort jackson yesterday.

Of 3 of 4 company high shooters had a 36, one had a 38.

With 36 being the minimum score for expert logically means the vast majority qualified as marksman.

Obvious enough in my book that when there is only one expert in a company of around 160 that something is friggan wrong with what's going on down there.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well. My final post on this topic.

The boy got a 34. Fucking sharpshooter............in the Army.


I expected more but guess that's how it goes. </div></div>

After the first part of this thread where you claimed your super duper kickass kid was going to crush the weak ass army qual like a grape.. This is just fucking great! You made my day Trebek, thank you!

 

[kraigWY]

Shows history repeats itself

Had the same problem in the WWI yards.

Rifle qualification on the average was 5% expert, 10% Sharpshooter, 15% Marksman, the remainder failed to qualify.

Gen Pershing Placed Colonel Macnab in charge of rifle traing with a plan he had developed and pushed.

After Macnab's plan was implamented, the Average went to: 25% Expert, 40% sharpshooter, 30% Marksman and 5% unqualified.

What's sad is the method used by Col. Macnab is still being used to day by the CMP, and its rather cheap (cost per shooter), but not taught to ALL of our soldiers, but to any civilian who wants it.

Macnab's method is nothing more then the Small Arms Firing Schools put on at Camp Perry, and the Eastern & Westrn CMP games.

The problem isn't cost, the problem is the SAFS is too much like High Power Rifle...........can't have that. It's not Tacticool. Matters not that it teaches Marksmanship Fundamentals.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Shows history repeats itself

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had the same problem in the WWI yards.

Rifle qualification on the average was 5% expert, 10% Sharpshooter, 15% Marksman, the remainder failed to qualify.

Gen Pershing Placed Colonel Macnab in charge of rifle traing with a plan he had developed and pushed.

After Macnab's plan was implamented, the Average went to: 25% Expert, 40% sharpshooter, 30% Marksman and 5% unqualified.

What's sad is the method used by Col. Macnab is still being used to day by the CMP, and its rather cheap (cost per shooter), but not taught to ALL of our soldiers, but to any civilian who wants it.

Macnab's method is nothing more then the Small Arms Firing Schools put on at Camp Perry, and the Eastern & Westrn CMP games.

The problem isn't cost, the problem is the SAFS is too much like High Power Rifle...........can't have that. It's not Tacticool. Matters not that it teaches Marksmanship Fundamentals.</div></div>

I've seen Drill Sergeants who, not having a thorough grasp of marksmanship, were not much help to Soldiers trying to qualify with their rifle. An example may be of a Soldier who is shooting vertical groups at 25 meters. These vertical strings can be the result of inconsistent perception for a center of mass hold, bringing the head to the stock rather than stock to head, and/or an inconsistent stock weld. What it is not is anything to do with breathing. Nevertheless, the Drill Sergeant will tell the Soldier to watch his breathing. Now, the Soldier becomes aware of breathing, which was not the issue, and it becomes an issue, along with the unanswered correction to the vertical stringing. This Soldier will not likely qualify as highly as would have been possible if there were a highly trained coach on site to help when shooter/target error is beyond the knowledge of the Drill Sergeant.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Shows history repeats itself

My son had been shooting HP for a couple years before he went to basic. I told him before he left, when confronted with the drill sgt at the range, just respond "Yes drill Sgt" and then shoot like you've been taught. He never had any problems firing expert.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well. My final post on this topic.

The boy got a 34. Fucking sharpshooter............in the Army.


I expected more but guess that's how it goes. </div></div>

After the first part of this thread where you claimed your super duper kickass kid was going to crush the weak ass army qual like a grape.. This is just fucking great! You made my day Trebek, thank you! </div></div>

I guess the army just breeds mediocrity. Your a good example of this I'm sure. Being that that boy scored two points off of the company high I'd say on that scale he did very well.

When only one shooter in the company shoots the lowest score possible for expert I'd say there is a serious instruction problem with the cadre.

Evidently the instruction of the Army wasn't much a help to any of them.


What else is there to say. You want to learn to shoot the proper way in the military there is only one choice of where to go.

Excuse me, I have to go buff my expert badges.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well. My final post on this topic.

The boy got a 34. Fucking sharpshooter............in the Army.


I expected more but guess that's how it goes. </div></div>

After the first part of this thread where you claimed your super duper kickass kid was going to crush the weak ass army qual like a grape.. This is just fucking great! You made my day Trebek, thank you! </div></div>

I guess the army just breeds mediocrity. Your a good example of this I'm sure. Being that that boy scored two points off of the company high I'd say on that scale he did very well.

When only one shooter in the company shoots the lowest score possible for expert I'd say there is a serious instruction problem with the cadre.

Evidently the instruction of the Army wasn't much a help to any of them.


What else is there to say. You want to learn to shoot the proper way in the military there is only one choice of where to go.

Excuse me, I have to go buff my expert badges. </div></div>

Earlier in the thread you said that you, as a marine, taught him all he knows. You also made it obvious that any army personel, be it on this board or his drills, had nothing to teach him. So this leaves a couple conclusions. Either you are a piss poor instructor unable to train your young padawan to "crush" the army qual like any good marine should, or he is too stupid to learn from the best, you. I guess that there is a third option, you being full of shit, which I think is the most likely option.

I find it funny that you talked all this shit about you being such a god of rifle instruction, but then you blame the drills when your personal student fails to qual expert. Way to contradict yourself. I'm glad that I've known a few 1st class marines before I ran into you.. or else I'd assume your whole service was a bunch of blame shifting incompetent pricks...

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Evidently the instruction of the Army wasn't much a help to any of them.................Excuse me, I have to go buff my expert badges.</div></div>

I threw away my "expert badge with I got my Distinguished Badge, but what the hell, I'm, just an old army paratrooper, what do I know.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the army just breeds mediocrity. Your a good example of this I'm sure. Being that that boy scored two points off of the company high I'd say on that scale he did very well.

When only one shooter in the company shoots the lowest score possible for expert I'd say there is a serious instruction problem with the cadre.

Evidently the instruction of the Army wasn't much a help to any of them.


What else is there to say. You want to learn to shoot the proper way in the military there is only one choice of where to go.

Excuse me, I have to go buff my expert badges. </div></div>

You sir, are an idiot. It was obvious from the very first post in this thread. Not a damn clue about anything because you live in your own little universe. You are an embarassment to all military services, including your beloved Corps.

Bob

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

Some of this conversation has reminded me of a kid who entered the Army already having earned a President's Hundred tab, as well as a DR badge. As he related to me, his DS asked him how he was able to hit a 300 yard target on a windy day when all others failed. His response was that he favored for the wind. The DS rebutted, "do you think a bullet traveling at 3000 ft per second is going to be moved by a little wind?" The kid answered, "yes" and was promptly told by the DS to get down and give him fifty...

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

I don't think there aren't mnay here who can dispute that the military is more concerned with you PT scores then your qualification scores.

Until that changes, marksmanship in the military will always suffer.

Granted I don't know much about Iraq and Afgan but in SE Asia I didn't do one pushup, one set up, or any two minute miles............I did shoot a time or two though.

Sad.

 

[Guest]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the army just breeds mediocrity. </div></div>

In some cases yes,... because you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Being a old US ARMY puke myself, I've seen the best an worst of all the services, in action. Ribbons and Awards (save specials) are for show. When you paint up, all that shit is out the door, and the only thing I want to know, is do you have my back!

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

While some of these posts are quite entertaining no one has hit on a particular point.

That in the 3 out of 4 companies of new soldiers only ONE in each company qualified expert, with the lowest score possible to still get expert, a 36.

Oh and I almost forgot. The boy told me he was instructed (as well as the rest of the recruits) by the drill sergeants to not shoot the 300m targets so that the extra rounds could be used to take another shot at closer targets if missed.

Not so surprising that there were 500 new soldiers with the top scores being a 38 and 3 36's.

Ranger bob, lrs ranger. your my hero's

 

[_RJ_]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

This thread is turning into a service bash, no need for it. Every branch has their shitbags and rockstars, so what. I bet he will re-qual expert, some people just choke in boot camp.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The boy told me he was instructed (as well as the rest of the recruits) by the drill sergeants to not shoot the 300m targets so that the extra rounds could be used to take another shot at closer targets if missed.</div></div>

Did things change? It use to be that when firing the record fire course you were allowed to fire one rounds per target, if you missed, you moved on to the next target exposure. Another shot at a missed target was a miss, whether it hit or not.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

Look, there are so many factors involved here that most people don't consider. Notice the drill instructor badge in my sig. I did three years as a DI in Infantry OSUT (one station unit training-basic and advanced training are combined for combat arms and a few other skills). Before retiring, I had made the E8 selection list and was frocked to first sergeant of a Infantry OSUT company for a year and a half. I believe I am qualified to speak on the subject of rifle qual in basic training.

First, you need to consider that basic is not the same for all soldiers. Training at Ft. Jackson would indicate that the emphasis is not going to be on creating skilled shooters. Few if any of the DI's would be infantry, which means that until they became drill instructors, their training focus was not on shooting. They would not have the background and experience to share with the trainees.

But wait, don't they teach the drill instructors how to properly instruct rifle marksmanship? The answer is a resounding "Hell no." When I went to Drill Sergeant School they told us right up front that if you did not qualify with your weapon during that phase of the school, you would not graduate. It was in the POI. I shot 40 out of 40 and had a 99.2% GPA with first time goes on everything. The class honor grad was a female NCO who had a 100% GPA with all first time goes except weapons qual in which she never qualified even with the minimum. Almost 15% of that class did not qualify so rather than fail to produce the requisite number of much needed drill instructors, they just dropped the qual from the graduation standards.

Now I'm not ssaying that being Infantry is the be-all end-all either. I was continually amazed at how little the DI's I worked with actually knew. Part of the problem is that we are a war. Soldiers are being promoted faster than during peacetime. Therefore, they have not amassed the knowlege base that they would have for a given rank that took longer to attain. Weapons qualification was alway the number one focus for instructor training during cycle breaks and NCOPD sessions. A basic training platoon cadre will be decimated on their NCOER (evaluation report) if they have poor qualification stats. But, it is not about the experts, it is about the number who fail to qualify. Expert is a luxury in that environment and remember, I'm talking about Infantry training conducted by infantry DI's!

There are other factor to consider as well. The rifles are beat to death. The m855 is not particularly accurate. Qualification will happen on the scheduled day regardless of weather conditions. Range maintenance is often poor. And of course, these kids are seriously stressed out come qualification day. The most feared word for a basic trainee is re-cycle. They are told from the very beginning that if they don't qualify, they will be re-started with a new day-one company. That is a lot of things working against these young soldiers.

There are certainly a few who never qualify and eventually go home. There are some who manage, somehow, to qualify after drill instructors take extra time away from the platoon to drag these kids to "piggyback" on other units qual days. I always hated that but, a soldier of any rank follows orders. Usually those trainees went to their unit and their NCO's would just complain about the garbage that was being turned out by basic training these days. The reality is it has always been that way.

23 is the standard. The Army says that if a soldier can hit 23 out of 40 targets, he/she is good enough. For most of the Army, that is probably true. Those who want to do better than that will always have another chance. The Army requires a annual qualification for all soldiers. Most Infantry units qualify 2-3 times a year.

As an aside, I had several soldiers under my leadership through the years who were also marines. Marksmanship was always a point of pride for them. I would say that they all felt the Army's qualification range was easy to score sharpshooter on but hard to score expert and I agree with that assessment.

I could go on and on about this subject but I probably should go do something productive.

Bob

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While some of these posts are quite entertaining no one has hit on a particular point...
</div></div>
Neither have you commented on the points made about your own duchebaggery...

Edit-- I really don't give a damn anymore about the original argument, since you yourself have made the point of your own idiocy far better than any of the rest of us could ever have. Now I'm to the stage of poking the bear just to see what other outlandish shit you will say next...

 

[valmet76]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranger Bob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As an aside, I had several soldiers under my leadership through the years who were also marines. Marksmanship was always a point of pride for them. I would say that they all felt the Army's qualification range was easy to score sharpshooter on but hard to score expert and I agree with that assessment.
</div></div>

I have to agree with this.

I've been in the Marines and the Army, and IMO it's much easier to shoot expert on the USMC rifle qual than the Army one.

The reason is that the USMC course has much more room for error. You can fuck up, big time, and still shoot expert easily. On the Army course, if you fuck up a little, you're not shooting expert and there's nothing you can do.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think there aren't mnay here who can dispute that the military is more concerned with you PT scores then your qualification scores.

Until that changes, marksmanship in the military will always suffer.

Granted I don't know much about Iraq and Afgan but in SE Asia I didn't do one pushup, one set up, or any two minute miles............I did shoot a time or two though.

Sad.
</div></div> I wouldn't group the Marine Corps into that category. USMC gives equal favor to PFT and rifle qualification scores concerning promotion up to Sgt. They are both applied across a score scale and are averaged together. I can't speak about SSgt or higher as I never sat on a promotion board, but from what I've heard it isn't near as much as fitreps and assignment history. It's more of a pass/fail for first class PFT an expert rifle/pistol; you either have it or you're bumped down a notch.

The Corps still dedicates three full weeks of instruction in recruit training towards marksmanship, regardless of future MOS. One week of classroom and dry fire, one week of live fire for qualification, and one week of field firing. There is also a permanent dedicated cadre of MOS 8531 Marksmanship Instructors assigned to Parris Island, Quantico, and Edson Range. Marksmanship is still a high priority to the Corps.

 

[dangerdan87]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

When I first asked my squad leader to send me to the designated marksman course (Marines) as I am familiar with the scope and reticle and I have high expert rifleman score. My SSgt and platoon commander denied me because another Marine had a better PFT score than I, though he barely made sharpshooter.
After he flunked the course, they re-thought their decision.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

They were idiots for doing that. Sometimes it's too bad stupid doesn't hurt. I also always said that DM should require current rifle expert, but they don't let simple STA Plt Sgts in on that conversation. Colonels always seemed to know better than us enlisted men. One of the reasons my sig line says "Vet" and not active.

Dang there needs to be a sarcasm font.....

 

[Aces&Eights]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

I think it is unfortunate that this thread turned into another Army versus Marines debate. I know first hand that I would feel better in combat with Marine cooks and mechanics than Army cooks and mechanics. That said- The soldiers I have been around with a combat MOS have all been pretty locked in. The Marine Corp basic marksmanship training is second to none IMHO, the army gets it done (for those who need it) down the road, not necessarily in boot.

Let's not get started on Colonels.. I almost lost my wife for good in '04 because cause a reservist was chasing a Star.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

Careful when we going after Officers, I was an E-7 when I went to OCS.

Lets not put all the eggs in one basket.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

Big difference between Lieutenants and Captains who still know the names of all their men and a Colonel with stars in his eyes. Mustangs are a different breed all together.

 

[angsniper]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Careful when we going after Officers, I was an E-7 when I went to OCS.

Lets not put all the eggs in one basket.</div></div>

I agree. I was E-6 before commissioned.

 

[Aces&Eights]

Re: Current US Army rifle qual??

Not going after officers, just one specific individual who shall remaine nameless... and yes mustangs are a differnt breed along with combat officers and others who put their men and women before thier personal careers and accomplishments.