Gunsmithing Custom action or trued R700

[TxShooter63]

There is one thing that isn't in question and that is the ability of a factory Remington 700 action to shoot accurately when properly machined. Precision is about tolerance and as long as the dimensional tolerances are the same, it doesn't matter whose name is on the action. I personally have never seen a Remington action that felt as good as one of the better after market actions but again, if Chad or anyone else takes the time to create the same tolerances found in a top level action, then the results will be the same. What I suspect is that many of the country's rifle builders struggle to get enough actions of any type and so having the ability to produce a product of equal quality with either a factory or an aftermarket action gives LRI and anyone else the ability to keep jobs going out the door. One thing Mr. Obama has taught us is not to count on any one supply chain for anything to do with firearms!

 

[Young Guns]

Rem 700's in my experience shoot as well as any custom if done right. If you go with a custom I would recommend a Stiller Tac 30 or sergeon. But you will be well over 500 either way you go.

 

[jonaddis84]

I'd love to hear the explanation for how the action made it inaccurate, that would surely be some good reading.

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk

 

[RonA]

I've used alot of different gunsmiths, but I've only had 1 custom action build go sour. Some years ago I bought a Hall "G " action from Lee Six and had it built into a nice heavy 1-10 tw .300 WSM. It was a new cartridge then and looked promising. Best I could get out of it consistantly was about 2" at 300 yards. I spent quite a while trying different powders and bullets but didn't find anything it really liked. Guy that bought it thinks it's a tack driver. I'm going to call mark at Accurate Ordnance today and see if he could put a Remington large boltface build on the books for me. I'll let them do the cartridge, barrel, stock selection and the build. I'll even have them shoot it. If it works well, I'll change my opinion.

 

[BookHound]

LOL. Thanks a lot, my friend. We'll put together something cool for you. Have a great weekend.

Mark

 

[nashlaw]

"a trashcan full of smashed assholes"........ a master rifle builder with a poetic streak. What is there not to like.

Looking forward to the group buy.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

There is one thing that isn't in question and that is the ability of a factory Remington 700 action to shoot accurately when properly machined. Precision is about tolerance and as long as the dimensional tolerances are the same, it doesn't matter whose name is on the action.

I think most here would agree with this statement. However, if it is only a few dollars less to make a factory action as good as a custom action then why not forego having to polish a diamond in the rough and just go with a properly made action from the start? Where I think it would prove a huge advantage is if someone could produce trued Remington actions for sale at a significantly less dollar amount than it currently costs for a custom action.

This is also not factoring in other services that don't come with a factory action such as an integral base, oversize bolt knob,fluted bolt,etc that often come standard on some custom actions out there. If any of these things are features you want then it makes producing the same action with a factory action that more expensive and time/labor intensive to produce.

 

[LRI]

I think most here would agree with this statement. However, if it is only a few dollars less to make a factory action as good as a custom action then why not forego having to polish a diamond in the rough and just go with a properly made action from the start? Where I think it would prove a huge advantage is if someone could produce trued Remington actions for sale at a significantly less dollar amount than it currently costs for a custom action.

This is also not factoring in other services that don't come with a factory action such as an integral base, oversize bolt knob,fluted bolt,etc that often come standard on some custom actions out there. If any of these things are features you want then it makes producing the same action with a factory action that more expensive and time/labor intensive to produce.

Easy answer? Cost.

When you can crank one out in the current state and it only costs you $37.00 to produce the receiver and you can sell 2000 of em a week, why change a thing?

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Easy answer? Cost.

When you can crank one out in the current state and it only costs you $37.00 to produce the receiver and you can sell 2000 of em a week, why change a thing?

Are you saying you can take a factory action and do all of the things that typically come standard on a custom action for $37?

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was saying above or you misunderstood what I said. Truing a factory action now is not really cost effective for the end user, the money saved is not that substantial. When/if someone could take a factory action, true it, flute the bolt, install an oversized bolt knob, etc for say $500-800 out the door cost to the end user, THEN I think there would be a reason to go with a trued factory action over a custom. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon, gunsmith labor/time /costs make this improbable IMO.

 

[LRI]

Are you saying you can take a factory action and do all of the things that typically come standard on a custom action for $37?

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was saying above or you misunderstood what I said. Truing a factory action now is not really cost effective for the end user, the money saved is not that substantial. When/if someone could take a factory action, true it, flute the bolt, install an oversized bolt knob, etc for say $500-800 out the door cost to the end user, THEN I think there would be a reason to go with a trued factory action over a custom. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon, gunsmith labor/time /costs make this improbable IMO.

NO. What I'm saying is it costs Remington $37 dollars to make a 700 receiver. (only the receiver) Its about a 12 minute operation.

When you have that cost in time/materials and you manufacture 2000+/week and sell them for what they go for (price a complete action only once) your margins are pretty darn good and people are buying them.

It's not broke so why fix it? That's the "big boy world" of manufacturing. This is why they aren't jumping through hoops to compete with folks like Stiller, Defiance, etc. . .

You treat it for what it is. PRODUCTION grade products made by the tonnage.

-edit-

I guess I did misinterpret your statement. I only scanned it and responded as if you were saying why doesn't Remington take the time to improve things.

My goof. Sorry

 

[LRI]

Are you saying you can take a factory action and do all of the things that typically come standard on a custom action for $37?

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was saying above or you misunderstood what I said. Truing a factory action now is not really cost effective for the end user, the money saved is not that substantial. When/if someone could take a factory action, true it, flute the bolt, install an oversized bolt knob, etc for say $500-800 out the door cost to the end user, THEN I think there would be a reason to go with a trued factory action over a custom. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon, gunsmith labor/time /costs make this improbable IMO.

Brownells retails a M700 short in chromoly for $499.99
Accurizing typically runs: $275.00
Bolt Fluting: $65.00
8-40 base hole enlargement: $100.00
Bolt knob: $40.00
Installation of knob: $65.00
Recondition factory lug: $35.00


These are current prices. It's about to change (for the better) I just dropped low 6 figures into this place. There's a GB looming. Were running 1st articles as I type this to get our time studies done so that we can evaluate the costs/prices aspect.

My advise: If you have M700's collecting dust and you've been on the fence about whether or not to have them worked over. Start buying barrels now cause they'll be in short supply here soon.

The game is about to change.

Have a great weekend. I got RUSH HOCKEY playoff tickets!

C.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

By my quick hand math that works out to $1,079. Compared to custom action prices that isn't a huge price difference. Now, if you are hinting that you plan on selling trued factory actions for a considerable price difference from custom made actions then I (and everyone else) am all for it seeing it happen and would welcome it.

 

[RonA]

By my quick hand math that works out to $1,079. Compared to custom action prices that isn't a huge price difference. Now, if you are hinting that you plan on selling trued factory actions for a considerable price difference from custom made actions then I (and everyone else) am all for it seeing it happen and would welcome it.

If you have to get it trued twice, it costs even more. I sent a 700 short out to be re-done into a 7mm-08. When it came back I saw that i was charged $150 to true the action(early 1980's). It didn't like light bullets, medium weight bullets, or heavy bullets so i decided to quit screwing around and sent it to another guy to get it barrelled for 6mmBR. When it came back i saw another charge of $150 to true up the receiver. I gave him a call and asked him how many times do they have to be trued up? He laughed and said who ever did the 7mm-08 did nothing to the receiver or bolt. First trip to the range with the 6mm BR yielded my first very accurate Remington. Liked several different bullet powder combo's and was pretty consistant .4 to .6 at 200yards. Plenty good for ground squirrels.

 

[JGorski]

If you have to get it trued twice, it costs even more. I sent a 700 short out to be re-done into a 7mm-08. When it came back I saw that i was charged $150 to true the action(early 1980's). It didn't like light bullets, medium weight bullets, or heavy bullets so i decided to quit screwing around and sent it to another guy to get it barrelled for 6mmBR. When it came back i saw another charge of $150 to true up the receiver. I gave him a call and asked him how many times do they have to be trued up? He laughed and said who ever did the 7mm-08 did nothing to the receiver or bolt. First trip to the range with the 6mm BR yielded my first very accurate Remington. Liked several different bullet powder combo's and was pretty consistant .4 to .6 at 200yards. Plenty good for ground squirrels.

All I can say is, you sure picked some piss poor "smiths"
.

 

[RonA]

All I can say is, you sure picked some piss poor "smiths"
.

Things are alot easier with the internet. Good reviews travel fast, bad reviews travel faster than light. Years back there used to be a little paper called Precision shooting(I think that's what it was called). There was talk about a new guy in Fremont CA that was doing some good work. I had him put the barrel on my Hall G. He didn't want to wear the .300WSM reamer so he ran a .308 reamer up in the barrel to rough out the chamber. Problem was he couldn't get the pilot on the WSM reamer to reach the bore and he was afraid to take the barrel out of the lathe and move on to something else. He didn't have any boring bars and didn't understand when i tried to explain to him how to grind one from an old end mill. It was a saturday so i ground a bar up and drove 180 miles to his shop and gave him the boring bar and explained how to make one if he needed a different size. I could tell I had picked the wrong guy and the rifle shot poorly. I read about a guy up in Montana a number of years ago and I sent him a 700LA that had the bolt face opened up for the .338 Lapua. The lapua was pretty new and i wanted to blow it out slightly and neck it down to .30 with a 30deg shoulder. Waited almost a year for reamer and dies, then sent it to this guy along with a nice 1-12 tw barrel that would easily finish at 30". When i got it back the barrel was 27" long and had almost no straight section up next to the receiver. I called him about it and he said he had some trouble with it and had to re-cut the chamber a couple of times. It shot extremely well with both 150 and 180 gr Nosler balistic tips and the 150's were blowing 1/3 of the coyote off when they hit. I decided a couple years later to put a bit heavier barrel in it and try the new 300 Ultra-mag. When i took the barrel off he had had to move the thread shoulder back at least 3/16" and had only about half as many turns of thread engagement as normal. But it shot great. Funny stuff now, but at the time it was a bit annoying.

 

[300sniper]

Things are alot easier with the internet. Good reviews travel fast, bad reviews travel faster than light. Years back there used to be a little paper called Precision shooting(I think that's what it was called). There was talk about a new guy in Fremont CA that was doing some good work. I had him put the barrel on my Hall G. He didn't want to wear the .300WSM reamer so he ran a .308 reamer up in the barrel to rough out the chamber. Problem was he couldn't get the pilot on the WSM reamer to reach the bore and he was afraid to take the barrel out of the lathe and move on to something else. He didn't have any boring bars and didn't understand when i tried to explain to him how to grind one from an old end mill. It was a saturday so i ground a bar up and drove 180 miles to his shop and gave him the boring bar and explained how to make one if he needed a different size. I could tell I had picked the wrong guy and the rifle shot poorly. I read about a guy up in Montana a number of years ago and I sent him a 700LA that had the bolt face opened up for the .338 Lapua. The lapua was pretty new and i wanted to blow it out slightly and neck it down to .30 with a 30deg shoulder. Waited almost a year for reamer and dies, then sent it to this guy along with a nice 1-12 tw barrel that would easily finish at 30". When i got it back the barrel was 27" long and had almost no straight section up next to the receiver. I called him about it and he said he had some trouble with it and had to re-cut the chamber a couple of times. It shot extremely well with both 150 and 180 gr Nosler balistic tips and the 150's were blowing 1/3 of the coyote off when they hit. I decided a couple years later to put a bit heavier barrel in it and try the new 300 Ultra-mag. When i took the barrel off he had had to move the thread shoulder back at least 3/16" and had only about half as many turns of thread engagement as normal. But it shot great. Funny stuff now, but at the time it was a bit annoying.

And this is your reasoning for not using a Remington receiver to build an accurate rifle?

Seriously, it's a chunk of steel that holds the barrel and keeps the ass end of the cartridge from blowing out.

I think your issue is incompetent builders, not the chunk of steel.

 

[ackleyfan]

Using Rem 700 actions can lead to some very accurate rifles, but there not all created equal ,vibration and harmonics play a huge role in accuracy, there are some actions that seem to throw that unexplained flyer, or never seem to shoot up to exspectations, fireing pins that are not guided or captured can create some weird vibrations bouncing around behind the bolt face looking to find the hole, custom actions like Jim Bordens actions have a well thought out fire control system, which leads to more consistant accuracy IMO, I have customs and Rem 700's and personally I like the customs better....YMMV

 

[RonA]

And this is your reasoning for not using a Remington receiver to build an accurate rifle?

Seriously, it's a chunk of steel that holds the barrel and keeps the ass end of the cartridge from blowing out.

I think your issue is incompetent builders, not the chunk of steel.

You may have slightly over simplified the role of the action, but i don't appear to be the only person in this thread that
prefers to start with something more precise.

 

[300sniper]

You may have slightly over simplified the role of the action, but i don't appear to be the only person in this thread that
prefers to start with something more precise.

true, but you are the only one that made it sound like there is going to be a significant accuracy difference between starting with an aftermarket action instead of a properly trued remington.

and again true, i did over-simplify the role of the action. but for the rifles we are dealing with on this site, i'd love for someone to prove that a remington based build is not as accurate as an equivalent build based on another action.

i'll argue features vs. cost long before i'll argue accuracy.

 

[bertshortmag]

I will share my 2cents for what its worth. I currenly own 3 custom actions all great rifles. But after stopping by Chads shop on our way out west this last fall. I Was so impressed with the work he and his guys are doing that i am considering getting in on his group buy. Now with this said i wont debate what is better custom or trued? Because better all comes down to what are you measureing? Are you building a benchrest rifle? No you wouldnt be on this forum you would be somewhere else on the web. And if a guy can save some cash and have a rifle that will shoot great why not? In a tactical style rifle or even most target rifles I think you would be hard pressed to make wind calls as accurate as a proper trued action rifle will shoot. If money was no object heck yes full custom why not? but If i can save some cash or get my next build going a little sooner because i have enough cash to do it.

 

[ackleyfan]

I will share my 2cents for what its worth. I currenly own 3 custom actions all great rifles. But after stopping by Chads shop on our way out west this last fall. I Was so impressed with the work he and his guys are doing that i am considering getting in on his group buy. Now with this said i wont debate what is better custom or trued? Because better all comes down to what are you measureing? Are you building a benchrest rifle? No you wouldnt be on this forum you would be somewhere else on the web. And if a guy can save some cash and have a rifle that will shoot great why not? In a tactical style rifle or even most target rifles I think you would be hard pressed to make wind calls as accurate as a proper trued action rifle will shoot. If money was no object heck yes full custom why not? but If i can save some cash or get my next build going a little sooner because i have enough cash to do it.

Most 700 actions are going for $400-$500 these days add on the price of getting it close to what a custom offers, a smith like Greg Tannel charges $560 for a full blueprint and you won't be saving much!

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

I have about 250.00 in a brand new 700 action.

350.00 for a new 700 rifle after rebate + 20.00 for BG check + 20.00 in gas getting it home

Sold the
X-Mark Pro trigger 60.00
The barrel 60.00
The stock 20.00
The cheep scope that came on the rifle 30.00

 

[X-fan]

I am getting close to 3 dozen custom Remingtons. They are all blueprinted and they all shoot better than I can.

This horseshit about a blueprinted R700 not shooting is just that...Bad workmanship=Horse shit.
Barrel not coming straight off the action...G-ZUZ!
God help us there are some terrible "firearms professionals" out there.

IMHO the biggest advantage of the R700 is the accuracy vs weight thing.
There are nicer actions for range or tactical work, but none do it at such light weigh and are still happy to run reasonably dirty out in the elements.
Smiths bent on tight bolts can eff that up too (beware).

For hunting I will put the 700 up against any action.

 

[mdesign]

The trued 700's that I have are just as accurate as my customs but they are also are lighter. If I were building a rifle that was primarily for hunting, I would probably go with a Remington just to save the weight unless I always hunted out of a ground blind. IMO, a true action is a good thing but a true chamber on a quality bore is probably a better thing.

 

[Easy_E]

So If a tuned 700 action is just as good as any custom why do shooters even spend the dough on customs ? I was looking though the "What the pro's use" thread and Remingtons and Savage are less then one percent of the guns listed ?

 

[Big Toby]

IMO, a true action is a good thing but a true chamber on a quality bore is probably a better thing.

Since my foundation is in motorsports I will relate this to something I know and a lot of people can relate to. It is like deciding you are going to build a new chevy engine for your car. You have a 69 truck sitting in the corner of your property that has 3 inches of dust and grease and a family of mice living in it.(Yeah I am from a Midwest farm town happens all the time) You can go pull the engine out of that and hand it off to the machine shop that day where it gets blueprinted and trued. You fill it with premium parts and stroke the 30000 check. Or you can pick up the phone and call the machine shop say hey order me a new Dart block. It shows up at the mercy of Dart and the shipping it shows up whenever and is filled with the exact same premium parts makes the same numbers on the dyno. Only three differences in the two scenarios time to gratification, weight (Aftermarket block about 150lbs heavier and now you are writing a 32000 check. The blueprinted action is mainly for the guy that has old betsy sitting in the corner of the gun safe wants to save a couple dollars put a new look on old girl and go shoot the same groups with his buddies that could call the machine shop and say just order it let me know when it gets here.

 

[chakup]

So If a tuned 700 action is just as good as any custom why do shooters even spend the dough on customs ? I was looking though the "What the pro's use" thread and Remingtons and Savage are less then one percent of the guns listed ?

Well I'm no Pro but I see it as A) Competition and "Normal" life are hugely different, and B) When you're running sponsors things aren't nearly as expensive as they are to us general folk.

 

[MTyotehunter]

I think to figure out weather a trued remingon or coustom would shoot better would be super rediculous. However you can get a coustom action with a better extractor for the same money. Unless you get a sweet deal on a 700 Id still go custom.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Surgeon 591/R .473”= .308 Win. W/Remington style extractor

 

[300sniper]

However you can get a coustom action with a better extractor for the same money.

define "better".

 

[300sniper]

So If a tuned 700 action is just as good as any custom why do shooters even spend the dough on customs ?

because they can. i bet you money not one of those shooters would have placed any different if they were shooting a remington based build with one piece bolt.

 

[X-fan]

So If a tuned 700 action is just as good as any custom why do shooters even spend the dough on customs ? I was looking though the "What the pro's use" thread and Remingtons and Savage are less then one percent of the guns listed ?

The OP is talking about a precision hunting rifle.
The rifle has less to do with winning that anybody wants to admit. The action less so.

I have attended smaller local shoots (with my $10,000.00 rifles) and been beaten by Bubba with a dirty old Mauser chambered in 7X57.
He knew the weather conditions like the back of his hand and could read what was going on better than anybody else= Victory.

The best part was having to watch him jiggle his sloppy bolt trying to get "another sausage" into the pipe....Jezuz wept!

 

[RanchhandTCR]

of you already have a remington then use it for your foundation and have it trued, I have a 22-250 Remington that im also turning into a 260 Rem, for tactical marksmen competitions. If you dont the cost to buy a action and have it trued will be close to just buying a custom one already. I have my action getting tuned and its getting a loather walther barrel.

 

[turbo54]

The OP is talking about a precision hunting rifle.
The rifle has less to do with winning that anybody wants to admit. The action less so.

I have attended smaller local shoots (with my $10,000.00 rifles) and been beaten by Bubba with a dirty old Mauser chambered in 7X57.
He knew the weather conditions like the back of his hand and could read what was going on better than anybody else= Victory.

The best part was having to watch him jiggle his sloppy bolt trying to get "another sausage" into the pipe....Jezuz wept!

First off, that's funny stuff.

Secondly, you're dead on. These matches are won by excellence in marksmanship and not super premium equipment.

I like custom actions. I think by the time you fiddle fuck a 700 with all the goodies, you coulda just gotten a custom. That said, a tuned up 700 is good to go.

Two friends have fully reworked 700s by SAC, with PTG bolts, LBC mod etc etc etc, and they are NICE.


I