Gunsmithing Custom Action Questions

R

Red Belly

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Minuteman
Jul 28, 2009
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MA
#1
I am loking to build a rifle in 308 Win for mainly target & maybe a little hunting in the future. I have decided on using a custom action. I have spoken to a few manufacturers but I would like an "unbiased" opinion. I will say at this time I am leaning towards a Surgeon 591 action. Here are some of my questions/concerns.

1) As I said, this rifle will mainly be used for target but I want to use it for some hunting as well in the future. I want it to be reliable in cold/hot/wet/dry conditions. Are the custom action tolerances too tight for field use?

2) With respect to extractors, is the M16 style extractor an essential upgrade for a 308 Win?

Thanks for everyone's help.
 
#4
Re: Custom Action Questions

Sir, is the extractor easily field replaceable or is that something I need a smith to do? I always like to keep a few spare parts on hand for Mr Murphy.
 
#7
Re: Custom Action Questions

A slot has to be cut in the nose of the bolt to house either an m-16 or Sako style extractor, as well as a hole made for the retaining pin and the spring and detent. AS far as "field replaceable"...maybe! Sometimes the extractor has to be undercut a few thousands to allow it to slip over the case head.
 
#8
Re: Custom Action Questions

A standard remington extractor is good to go and replacing it with a Sako or M16 extractor is not an "upgrade." There are safety issues with Sako's in a remington style action and to a lesser extent also with an M16 extractor. There are sometimes also ejection problems with these extractors: throwing brass into your scope, etc. Do some research on safety problems with Sako's. I don't know how anyone could put one of these in after hearing about some of the terrible accidents that have happened. Here is one of the zillions of threads on this subject: http://www.benchrest.com/showthread.php?31835-Sako-Extractor-In-Remington-Bolt-Safety-Issues


If you absolutely hate the Remington extractor, then you might want to look into a sliding plate extractor: it's a safe, reliable option.
 
#9
Re: Custom Action Questions

I own a Sako TRG. The extractor works great.

The difference is the extractor was made to work with the ejector in the bolt. When you fit one to a bolt that has a standard style Remington extractor you mess with the angle of ejection. Custom actions that use sako or M16 extractors take care of that by placing the ejector in a different position on the bolt face to ensure proper feeding and clearance issues with the scope.

Having read Scooter's link I have to laugh a bit. Yeah, a ruptured case can do some damage, but the stars would need to align for the extractor to be both blown off, and tossed down the raceway into the shooter.

Bottom line...the biggest issue is the reliability of ejection on actions that came from the factory with a remington style and were reworked for a sako or M16. If you purchase a custom action purpose built for one of those extractors, the ejector will have been moved to give positive ejection and extraction.

Josh
 
#10
Re: Custom Action Questions

i myself would lean towards something built by defiance machine. i chose the skunkworks 911 standalone manufactured by defiance. true drop in to 700 footprint, stainless,aw magwell, pinned lug and base, m16 extractor, deep flutes, one piece bolt all for less than surgeon 591. don't get the wrong impression the 591 is also a great action. i have handled both quite a bit and feel the defiance actions were smoother.

if you are going to get a custom action get one with m16 extractor and one piece bolt. you won't regret it.
 
#12
Re: Custom Action Questions

I was always patial to the sako ext in a remmy but after doing some reading I think it could cause some concerns,espcially for a lefty shooter on a RH action or vice versa. I wouldnt hesitate to shoot a 700 with a Sako Ext but I dont think I would pay extra for the conversion.
 
#13
Re: Custom Action Questions

I've built quite few rifles in 12+ years of doing this. The vast majority have been based on the "boutique" actions that now seem to be everywhere. In most cases, there really isn't a wrong answer so long as its appropriate for the application.

If it were me:

If I was building a purpose built tactical rifle the action would be a control round feed, three position safety, non rotating extractor type. That is what my action design is and its also what I helped design while working for Dakota Arms/Nesika.

If it's a dangerous game gun, then basically the same thing applies for the tac gun only I don't think a detachable magazine would really be needed. I would hope a guy doesn't get into a fire fight with a Cape Buffalo.

A sporting rifle for any hooved animal in North America will run just fine on 99% of the Remington clones available today. I personally like the Nesika, Borden, & Defiance actions because (in spite of what the manufacturer's may argue) they carry a common lineage. All three have really good primary extraction and all the parts are made from premium grade aerospace/tool grade materials with top shelf equipment by folks who really know their stuff.

Nesika used to be one of the most sought after receivers in the states. The name was tarnished a bit during a really ugly time back in 03-07. Remington owns the company now and the guys have made great strides to bring back the quality. The Kitimura machining centers are tough to beat.

Jim Borden produces a very fine action. The fit and finish is 2nd to none. I just wish his bolts were one piece. Aside from that little annoyance (personal preference) they are perfect. Jim's experience in this game goes back several decades. He's a stickler for detail and a hell of a nice guy.

Glen and Lisa, owners of Defiance have been in this game for a very long time now. As the founders of Nesika they've been at this 20+ years. That's a great deal of experience. The Defiance actions are good. I've built quite few guns this year on them. I don't like the exposed shroud (again, personal preference) or the goofy looking flutes on the bolt, but aside from that they are very well made. Considering they are produced from preheatreated material and have the bores deep hole drilled, honed, and EDM'd raceways there isn't much reason for the material to distort or get cockeyed during manufacturing. Glen bought Kitamura 5axis VMC's which are about as robust and accurate as CNC's can be made. They produce really good parts.

The bulk of the other actions I see just look wierd IMHO. Ejection ports are funky, the shrouds for the bolts are afterthoughts, and the fit/finish is sometimes a bit rough. 90% work just fine and will do everything the owner wants. I just wish they had more elegance/style.

Regardless of what you decide, I encourage anyone building a rifle on a twin lug, 90* turn bolt to avoid using a Sako extractor. It is potentially dangerous (borderline lethal) to the operator and anyone in the vicinity of the gun if there is a case rupture. I know of two cases this summer alone that resulted in surgery due to the things flying out of the gun.

They were never intended for twin lug actions as the part isn't supported by anything other than .150" of barrel counterbore. (that's if the action isn't a flat bolt design)

The AR-15 style is much safer since it at least has a pin to retain the part if the gun "sneezes" a case.

Good luck with your purchase.

Chad
 
#14
Re: Custom Action Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If it were me:

If I was building a purpose built tactical rifle the action would be a control round feed, three position safety, non rotating extractor type. That is what my action design is and its also what I helped design while working for Dakota Arms/Nesika.



Chad </div></div>

Sir
I am not trying to be argumentative but why would you choose control round feed for a tactical rifle?
What happens if you need to single feed and forget, or out of habit, do not seat the round in the magazine and slam the bolt home?
I would imagine the extractor could be modified to snap over regardless, and was wondering if this is the case in your design?
I am honestly looking forward to your response because I really like control round feed actions.
 
#16
Re: Custom Action Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any properly designed control feed action is very capable of being used in a single load, single shot capacity. They are supposed to work this way.

Any that don't weren't designed or built right.

Mine does.</div></div>

So from what you are saying, Peter Paul Mauser did not know how to design an action "properly".

And If you don't mind, would you post a pic of your properly designed, built right action, I would like to see it.
 
#17
Re: Custom Action Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ACArms</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any properly designed control feed action is very capable of being used in a single load, single shot capacity. They are supposed to work this way.

Any that don't weren't designed or built right.

Mine does.</div></div>

So from what you are saying, Peter Paul Mauser did not know how to design an action "properly".

And If you don't mind, would you post a pic of your properly designed, built right action, I would like to see it. </div></div>

Yep, if it can snap over the rim on closing, it can snap off/over the rim on extraction.... I like to think of those actions, such as M70 Classics, as "modified" CRFs....

Cheers,

Bill
 
#18
Re: Custom Action Questions

I'm going to attempt avoiding getting sucked into yet another Jerry Springer episode. By your logic however one would argue should we all go back to corrosive priming compounds, guns bedded with bisonite or polyester base resins, and scopes with spiderweb material for reticles? Apparently improvements today fail to overshadow the original design?

No, what I'm saying is its totally possible to build a control round feed action that will single load without having to stuff the cartridge in the magazine. All the Dakota Arms 76/97 actions do it, Winchester Pre 64 actions do it (what a nightmare that would be during a slow fire string in NRA course matches)

Just like its possible today to build/own a car that'll get 25+mpg while making 700+hp at the rubbers. (I know cause up until last spring I owned one, a blown/nitroused 2004 GTO)

It's not rocket science. In today's world of modern manufacturing it's a few minutes of work in a computer followed by some final fitting with a file and kratex wheel.

My action:

DSC_0024-1.jpg


Control round feed
One piece bolt
3 pos safety
Open archetecture trigger
Cone breech with no extractor slot
Pinned lug
Heavy tang
EDM raceways
Deep hole gun drilled/honed bore
Anti rotation feature in shroud to prevent fire control accidentally collapsing when out of battery
Detachable magazine fed (Sako TRG)
8-32 base holes (for now, going to be TIG welding more than likely)
NO hammers or punches required. Whole thing comes apart with a couple allen wrenches.

And yes, that's surface rust. It's a prototype, it's been humid, and I'm busy with customer guns.

Have a great weekend all.

C




 
#19
Re: Custom Action Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to attempt avoiding getting sucked into yet another Jerry Springer episode....</div></div>

wink.gif
Good one, Chad! I've been in enough "discussions" with DGR "purists", that I couldn't resist....

I do like that action.

Another truce!

Bill
 
#20
Re: Custom Action Questions

Chad,

I agree that Dakota, Win 70, 03 Springfield,1914 & 1917 Enfields and even that nice looking Remchester action you posted can be modified to snap over the rim of a cartridge. Even a Mauser 98, can be modified to snap over, but you will be giving up the Mauser design feature that tightens up the extractor purchase of the rim when a round is stuck in the chamber. Now Dakota, Winchester, and even more modern versions of the 98 do not have this feature, and can easily be modified to snap over the rim

But to say that a CRF action that can not be single loaded is not properly designed, or is built wrong just doesn't hold water. Unless you think that Peter Paul Mauser just did not know what he was doing. But I do not see how that could be when every CRF action built after 1898 is nothing more than a modified copy of a Mauser 98.

Todd
 
#21
Re: Custom Action Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ACArms</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any properly designed control feed action is very capable of being used in a single load, single shot capacity. They are supposed to work this way.

Any that don't weren't designed or built right.

Mine does.</div></div>

So from what you are saying, Peter Paul Mauser did not know how to design an action "properly".
</div></div>

I may be a bit of a newbie since I've only been playing with bolt actions for 37 years or so but I'm wondering if you believe that Mausers actions were incapable of feeding single rounds placed in the chamber rather than the mag?
I've never seen an issue with any mauser I've owned or fired with placing a round in the chamber or on top of the mag follower(not pressed into the mag) and closing the bolt. No broken extractors, no failures to close on the round, no problems shooting or extracting so what is the problem with mausers in this regard...? I'm talking 91,93,96,98 along with foriegn and commercial variants of all of the above. I'm not trying to start a fight here either but I'm curious about the possibility that I've missed something in the conversation here.

Thanks
Frank
 
#22
Re: Custom Action Questions

Frank,

In Mauser's original design, the extractor could not move away from the bolt far enough to snap over the rim, it was limited in travel by the wall of the action. The case had to ride up the bolt face and under the extractor.

(Edited to add) Kind of like the 1911 - to avoid stressing the extractor, you should always load from the mag so that the rim slips under the extractor as it rides up the face. If you drop rounds in the chamber and snap the extractor over the rim, you're eventually going ruin that extractor....

Cheers,

Bill
 
#23
Re: Custom Action Questions

All well and fine.

Questions.

I personally think an extractor that doesn't side load a case is desirable. For the same reasons many feel that plunger ejectors are something to be avoided.

A tactical rifle above all else has to always work. It can't fail because people can die. Be it the user, the people he is trying to save, etc. An almost infinite number of situations present themselves that anyone here should be able to appreciate.

Because the gun must always work a chamber shouldn't be reamed to benchrest type minimal tolerances. If it is the gunsmith (IMO) should be charged with negligence. That being said everything else about the rifle should be very carefully fitted in order to minimize the potential accuracy loss due to a chamber that will run in any climate/place.

This is where an extractor that applies a hard bit on the case rim would be subject to some scrutiny in my book. IF and it may be a big if, but it's plausable. IF the extractor was to load the case and cause the bullet to be "less tangent" to the bore then the possibility of an accuracy issue could become an issue.

Likely? Probably not as it'd be no more than a plunger ejector fitted to every Remmy 700 out there that shoot fine. However one of the "benefits" of a CRF action with a mechanical ejector is the ability to have the case sit "dead" in the chamber with no preloading.

That's the theme I carried with my action design. Regardless of whether or not it preloads the case I would still want it over the alternatives if for no other reason than it offers significantly more case rim purchase than a Sako, AR, or T slot design.

The other advantage is safety. With a non rotating extractor you have a secure piece of steel that is obstructing the exposed raceway leading to the breech. In the event of a violent case rupture this is going to greatly aid the shooter in avoiding having gas/shrapnel removed from his face. Savage's solution is a great alternative. I wish more push feed guns were done this way. I feel strongly enough about it that as a cardinal rule in my business I will not install or service a twin lug 90* turn bolt action fitted with a Sako extractor as there is nothing keeping that thing from flying out of the gun if the chamber "sneezes" a case. Two incidents that I know of this summer alone (both resulting in surgery) emphasize my decision.

Last is the shroud. An often ignored component. I've never understood why R/H threads are used on bolt shrouds for R/H guns. You rotate the bolt into battery and the shroud pushes away from the bolt. This is yet another escape route for gas when things go bad. Mine uses a L/H thread on the shroud so that it pulls the thing closer to the bolt; mitigating some of the potential for more crap to blast you.

Remember. Military/NATO spec ammunition is quite often a bit higher in operating pressure than commercial. Murphy is always around the corner and none of which I'm describing is far fetched or difficult to do. It's just a little different approach.

Hope this helped.

C

 
#24
Re: Custom Action Questions

Chad,

I agree with all the points you made in the above post.
Claw extractor need not put side load on the cartridge rim. All rifles I have ever built on CRF actions I rework the extractor so that once the cartridge slides up the bolt face, past the widest part of the extractor at the bottom, there is no side pressure on the rim. This may or may not contribute to accuracy, but it definitely smooths up feeding.

As far as the bite into a cartridge rim I was referring to with the Mauser design, there is a groove machined just behind the bolt face, but in front of the lugs. This groove has an angle machined into it on bolt face side, and there is a corresponding tongue on the extractor with an angle that matches the angle of the groove on the bolt. If for some reason a cartridge is hard to extract from the chamber, when force is applied to the bolt by the primary extraction cam, moving the bolt back, this force is imparted to the extractor by the angle in the groove on the bolt. This draws the extractor toward the center of the bolt, there for applying more force on the rim of the cartridge aiding in extraction.

Todd
 
#25
Re: Custom Action Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,

In Mauser's original design, the extractor could not move away from the bolt far enough to snap over the rim, it was limited in travel by the wall of the action. The case had to ride up the bolt face and under the extractor.

(Edited to add) Kind of like the 1911 - to avoid stressing the extractor, you should always load from the mag so that the rim slips under the extractor as it rides up the face. If you drop rounds in the chamber and snap the extractor over the rim, you're eventually going ruin that extractor....

Cheers,

Bill </div></div>

I'm guessing that this must have been changed at some point not long after the guns were put into production. There were pretty large numbers of mausers used for single shot target shooting which had blocks placed in the mag to prevent its use. That means every round is single loaded in a way that requires the extractor to snap over the rim. In books written in the late 1800's concerning the building of these single shot mausers no mention was made that the extractor or receiver needed modification to work properly. None of the manuals on the Swede M96 target rifles mentions mods either so I'm guessing the rifles were intended to be used that way. Does that make sense?

Another question on preloading the cartridge with the extractor: If the extractor pushes the rim over and possibly tips the round in the chamber I can see that it might affect the starting of the bullet into the rifling but it should be very consistant shouldn't it? It might cause the group to move slightly one way other the other but it should still allow a consistant group? I would think that having the extractor positively holding the case would be important in reliability and the slight preload wouldn't be enough of a difference in accuracy to make it worth taking a chance on dropping the case in the receiver.

Frank
 
#26
Re: Custom Action Questions

Starting with the 03 Springfield, all CRF's have been originally designed to be single fed, due to the bevel that is on the nose of the extractor.
Adjusting the tension of the extractor will do wonders for feeding, extraction and ejection, as well as smoothing up the process of the extractor jumping over the case head.

Winchester's extractor uses a 120 deg. bevel, where Kimber uses a 90. Kimber's is noticeably smoother on the single feed for that reason alone.

Despite some of the smoke and mirrors, mixed with just misinformation, extractors do not play a roll in the accuracy of a rifle.

After manufacturing upwards of 100,000 of the little suckers, I've got an idea or two on the subject.........(grin)
 
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