Suppressors Custom Made Suppressor

[BigNoise]

This isn't going to happen anytime soon (hopefully in a couple years), but it's something I've had on my mind.

How open would some the suppressor manufacturers be to doing a custom can?

I want to build a lightweight, compact hunting rifle in .358 Win. It will have a 16.5" barrel, and I want to keep the total (suppressed) package as short as I can. I don't really want to throw a 10" can on the end of a 16" barrel.

Ase Utra, a Finnish suppressor manufacturer, makes a couple cans that look pretty nice, but those would be <span style="font-style: italic">hard</span> to come by in the US. (SL-6 and SL-7) Ase Utra

If I could get TBAC to shorten their 338P-1 to about 7", and give it a .358 bore diameter, that would be about perfect.

Delta P Design is another option. Their .338 Lapua can is close to the specs I would want.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Your going to wish it wasn't 16" long about 5 rounds into the process. The great thing about the .358 was its ability to drop length from 26 to 20. At 16" your just wasting powder. Wrong caliber for a 16" barrel. Wrong length for any superb suppression as well. No shorty can will work worth a piss, few normal cans will work worth a piss at 16". Respectfully, you have time, reset.

Here..

.308 Winchester, 150 grain at 2820 fps - 2648 foot pounds muzzle energy
.308 Winchester, 165 grain at 2700 fps - 2679 foot pounds muzzle energy
.308 Winchester, 180 grain at 2620 fps - 2743 foot pounds muzzle energy
.300 Winchester Magnum, 150 grain at 3290 fps - 3606 foot pounds muzzle energy
.300 Winchester Magnum, 180 grain at 2960 fps - 3503 foot pounds muzzle energy
.338 Winchester Magnum, 200 grain at 2950 fps - 3890 foot pounds muzzle energy
.338 Winchester Magnum, 250 grain at 2660 fps - 3899 foot pounds muzzle energy
.358 Winchester, 180 grain at 2700 fps - 2914 foot pounds muzzle energy
.358 Winchester, 200 grain at 2500 fps - 2776 foot pounds muzzle energy
.358 Winchester, 250 grain at 2300 fps - 2936 foot pounds muzzle energy
.45-70 Government, 300 grain at 1810 fps - 2183 foot pounds muzzle energy
.45-70 Government, 350 grain at 2100 fps - 3428 foot pounds muzzle energy
.45-70 Government, 405 grain at 1330 fps - 1591 foot pounds muzzle energy

From Rick's page..

http://www.chuckhawks.com/358Win_mystery.htm

"The .358 has a 200 - 300 ft. lb. advantage over the .308. It has a 600 - 700 ft. lb. deficit to the .300 magnum and 900 -1000 ft. lb. deficit to the .338 magnum. It has a 600 - 1300 ft. lb. advantage over the low pressure .45-70 loads, and a 500 ft. lb. deficit to the high pressure .45-70 load." Note: all at 20" min barrels.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

I'm not going for maximum suppression. I just want to be able to fire a couple shots at a deer or elk and not be deaf for half an hour. It's going to be a hunting rifle, not a target gun.

.358 Win is the perfect caliber for a short barrel. Bigger bore on the .308 case = greater expansion ratio and more "oomph" from the same powder charge. A 16" .358 has roughly the same bore volume as a 22" .308...something to consider.

Here's a 7.62 Delta P Brevis on a 16" barrel.....quiet enough for me.
16" Suppressed

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

So, all in good humor, ok?

Good because you aren't going to get maximum suppression, nor maximum velocity, nor maximum range, nor maximum knock down. You will get one hell of a fireball, a huge blast report. Short barrel in the .358 is 20", perhaps 18", definitely not 16"

Now you sent me a video:
1. That is a .308, not a .358, there is no similarity.
2. We cannot judge suppression with YouTube Videos, they tell us nothing as all mics cut out.
3. What is in his ears? I very much doubt that a 16" .358 with that, any shorty, most normal and a few large scale cans will not be "quiet enough for me." It will be l-o-u-d, ear ringing loud.
4. That is a gas gun and it generates back pressure that your bolt action will not. In your case, that is a form of gas relief that is not present. In the video, that pressure can be see hair.

Bore Volume, great, absolutely. If you want maximum knock down and a 16" barrel, and accuracy is not the primary concern, keep your case straight walled and go LARGER bore, perhaps?

http://wildwestguns.com/ammunition.html

Good luck.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

I'm not looking for "maximum suppression, nor maximum velocity, nor maximum range, nor maximum knock down." For that I would get (and will eventually) a .338 Lapua with a TBAC 338P-1.

What I'm looking for is a short, light, .358 Winchester with a suppressor to take the edge off of shooting with no hearing protection. I'm all for using ear-pro when hunting, but there are times when you do not have the chance to put it in/on before firing.

The video was just an example to show that there are short suppressors on short barrels that do provide some level of noise reduction. That's all I'm after.

If I wanted a big bore, straight walled cartridge I would get one....but I don't. I've weighed all my wants/needs, and the .358 Win is the cartridge that takes the cake.

Companies like Delta P and Ase Utra are making shorter than normal suppressors...and they are selling. If these cans were worthless like you seem to be insinuating, they wouldn't exist. Ase Utra has cans rated up to .375 H&H and 9.3x66mm Sako....a lot bigger cartridges than a .358 Win.

I understand that you think my project is fucking pointless...got it. What I'm looking for is input from suppressor manufacturers, dealers, or people in the know.

Ase Utra 6 Inch Suppressor

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Never said that anything was worthless. I am just pointing out that you will need true .338 capacity to suppress a 16" .358 to where suppression would be fair. That's all. What that means in the Ase is most likely the SL7. Don't under can that configuration. That all I'm saying. Been there, done that and, at 16" for that caliber, there are real consequences on the cartridge's performance and suppression requirements.

It has to do with larger bores and gas chase. Its hard enough to strip the gas off from behind a projectile when its .30 and under. When you go over, there is only one way and its number of baffles and chambers. Its physics. You asked for input, that's mine.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Gotcha.

That's why I mentioned the TBAC 338P-1 in my OP....considering I will be burning HALF the powder in a .358 Win vs a .338 Lapua, I think shortening that can about 4" would be about perfect, for my needs.

If you removed 4" from a 338P-1, the dimensions would be almost exactly the same as the Ase Utra SL-7....which is why I think it's feasible.

Considering the chances of me getting a Finnish made suppressor in the States are slim, I wanted to find a suitable American made substitute. TBAC has a really good reputation, are active on the forums, and support the shooting community, so that's where I plan to start.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

There you go. Sorry about this two person dialog.

Lets take this to the next step, just so that you can have a deep and broad discussion with anybody that you might approach to custom build a can. Again, for your benefit...

When a designer looks to minimize the physical capacity of a suppressor, they have only a relative few means to do it.

The vast majority increase the pressure of the can by creating a tighter bore and/or send gas redirects into entrapment blinds. In other words, one tightens up the bore to potentially strip off chase jets that would have normally "open up" by the second or third baffle set. "Opened UP" because of the relatively low pressure disruption of a "normal bore" primary diverter and secondary baffle. Since we cannot wait for that low pressure disruption, one tightens the bore and hurtles those redirected gas into blinds. Some billow out the capacity of those first chambers in hopes of reducing those increases in pressure. That is why "shortys" are so fat, making their use limited to high mechanical sights and scopes. Regardless, the heat remains, the propellant particulate remains.

Now why is this important? Perhaps (disclaimer) a maker like TB has determined, that to support their main directive of accuracy, they have elected to maintain a relatively low pressure bore, stripping the required gas jets over....10.2" of baffles and chambers. What do they get? Normalized back pressure, lower heat entrapment, some degree of forward purge, fewer hot spots, top level suppression and, perhaps most precious precious to them, accuracy. We know that some of this must be true because of TB's POI consistency.

Now, lets say somebody comes to them and says approximately this (not meant to in any way be derisive) "Listen, I am building a hunting rifle, not a hyper accurate long range platform. I am also looking for a much more modest amount of suppression. My major concern is OAL. Will you cut 4" off your product for me?" That person, that being you, now know what a suppressor company would need to begin to consider in order to make that change.

I'll retire from this thread now. Best

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Hey, I appreciate the info.

I realize the short suppressors are fighting an uphill battle when it comes to performance. I just wanted to see how open a company would be to doing a one-off can for a customer, or if they have done it before.

 

[blksno]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

I would only assume that not very many places would be truly opposed to it, but you're going to pay extra for less performance. And what sense does that make?

I know SRT Arms advertises right on their site that they can do custom cans...and I've heard the SRT Shadow, Hurricane and

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

On the original 30P's, we could easily bore out to a larger diameter. On the 30P-1, the baffle face design is cut differently and we can't just bore it out. It requires a CNC programming change and possible face redesign.

We can make shorter ones of the given bore size, as long as it's shorter 1, 2, 3, etc baffle lengths. So a shorter 30P-1 or 338P-1 would be no problem.

Give us a call to discuss if you'd like. We have made some custom items in the past.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Liberty Suppressors might. They made one for my Volquartsen anyway.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Thanks Zak...that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

I saw the Wilson Combat Suppressor thread where you mentioned the shorty .223 cans you've made, and it got me thinking that you guys might be open to the idea.

This is one of those down the road projects....a 22L-1 and a 30P-1 on the other hand, those might happen next year.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We can make shorter ones of the given bore size, as long as it's shorter 1, 2, 3, etc baffle lengths. So a shorter 30P-1 or 338P-1 would be no problem.</div></div>

Hmmm...perhaps I should just go with a .338 Federal and a shortened 338P-1...

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

BINGO......

 

[Tuukka]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Unfortunately we can not assist in the case of civilian sales in the U.S., as the sales of foreign suppressors to private individuals ( apart from those dealers who have the necessary licences ) is not possible.

Whether we will have a manufacturer making our products under licence in the U.S. in the future, remains to be seen.

With regards suppressors in general, whether the user is a civilian/hunter, police officer or soldier; we try to maximise the performance in as small size as it is possible.

However do not utilize extremely tight bores to do this, for example our jet-Z CQB-BL and CQBS-BL 5.56 mm assault rifle suppressors have a 7.3 mm bore.

A case example also on the balance of size vs. performance is the older S series S7 and the new lightened version SL7 in .338 Lapua Magnum calibre; we could have made the suppressor longer and heavier, however we decided to manufacture it in that particular size once we got below 140 dB at the shooters ear and the flash suppression capability was very effective.

We do however have some calibre ranges in which we offer several suppressor variants, due to different criteria.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[GGGN]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

Give David Shark suppressors a call he might. He has made a few cans that were not his norm.

 

[earthquake]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

From SAS's website:

"<span style="font-style: italic">Custom Suppressor design,

I love a new idea and really enjoy helping a customer find exactly what they want in a suppressor. Its a very good way to be forced to think outside the box. I can discuss you suppressor needs and give you a quote on a case by case basis. Custom suppressors will not be made a higher priority than regular production models. So if you can handle the extra wait I can listen to your request. </span>"

Suppressed Armament Systems

Maybe they can help?

 

[biffj]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

If you're loading your own ammo there are things you can do to make the 16" barrel perform well. Using powders that are on the faster end of the useable range will help. The gas gun guys have done lots of research into finding out what powders work best to get the pressure where they need it at the gasport. In doing so they also have found what powders keep the noise down while keeping velocity from being lost. In my experience 16" barrels are normal length and despite the blast and boom you get without the can I've not seen this extend into use with a suppressor. I find that the suppressor will occasionally allow a flash but noise levels aren't appreciably higher than those with a 20 or 24" barrel. Even with the longer barrels you will still occasionally get a flash or pop as the gasses collect from subsequent shots. Some baffle designs seem to work better with higher pressure gas flow. I would think that doing up a suppressor/rifle package for the .358 in 16" should be quite doable especially if you're not expecting "hollywood" quiet performance. I've done a few custom cans for machinegunners who just want the boom reduced in order to avoid losing the ranges they use. The hardest part is figuring out what exactly you want and will accept for sound levels.

Frank

 

[Wintermute]

Re: Custom Made Suppressor

If I were you, I'd get a good lathe, learn how to use it, setup a trust and file a Form 1. Then you can build a can with a short baffel area after the end of the barrel with the primary gas expansion being the back end of the can (basically, the can slides over the barrel and that section is the primary expansion area, the can threads to the barrel about two inches prior to the end of the can and the baffels are in that last two inches of the can).

All of the points the other guys made are valid as well. I'd stick with .308 or something similar and develop a load that doesn't burn half it's powder after the bullet exits.

--Wintermute