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Cut away view of my chamber on 6.5 Creedmoor 3000 rounds down the tube
- Thread starter hognuts
- Start date
You are correct. A bore scope is a valuable tool for the experienced, but I tend to dig below the surface of things whenever I can. The only way to get that kind of picture with detail is with destructive testing and a stereo microscope.
Could the copper being in there somehow help accuracy? (To "smooth out" the bore.)
I realize not having the cracks would be ideal, but it sounds like they're going to happen in a lot of calibers/barrels after just a few hundred rounds, if not sooner.
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Could the copper being in there somehow help accuracy? (To "smooth out" the bore.)
A small amount of copper, as in a slight wash or streaks in the grooves doesn't hurt anything. In some cases though they can quickly accumulate more copper. I guess the best way to describe that would be streaks VS lumps. Anything that intrudes into the bore and deforms the bullet can't be a good thing. A bullet touches the bore on top of the lands, about 40%-50% in the grooves and the base/heel upsets to form a gas seal.
I know of no target shooter who thinks copper contributes to accuracy.
Great info!
Mr. Tooley, I have a question, my normal procedure with a barrel is to clean it every outing, 20-40 rounds for the first three hundred or so rounds, then after that it gets cleaned about every 300 rounds. I haven't noticed an issue with this practice, what are your thoughts on that?
Next question, I have heard alot of folks say that after you clean (thouroughly clean) a barrel, you should put a few rounds down the tube say before a match so that your barrel gets fouled and there will be less deviation in your "cold bore" shot. I have not noticed a huge deviation clean or "fouled", but I will sometimes, if time allows follow that practice as well, do you have any thoughts on that philosophy?
***With a few barrels early on, I was following different "barrel break-in procedures" from different manufacturers, shoot a round, clean, shoot a round clean etc... shoot five rounds clean, then on subsequent barrels I have just shot 20ish rounds on first outing, clean etc...have not noticed a difference either way, can you tell us what your thoughts are on barrel break-in?
Mr. Tooley, I have a question, my normal procedure with a barrel is to clean it every outing, 20-40 rounds for the first three hundred or so rounds, then after that it gets cleaned about every 300 rounds. I haven't noticed an issue with this practice, what are your thoughts on that?
Next question, I have heard alot of folks say that after you clean (thouroughly clean) a barrel, you should put a few rounds down the tube say before a match so that your barrel gets fouled and there will be less deviation in your "cold bore" shot. I have not noticed a huge deviation clean or "fouled", but I will sometimes, if time allows follow that practice as well, do you have any thoughts on that philosophy?
***With a few barrels early on, I was following different "barrel break-in procedures" from different manufacturers, shoot a round, clean, shoot a round clean etc... shoot five rounds clean, then on subsequent barrels I have just shot 20ish rounds on first outing, clean etc...have not noticed a difference either way, can you tell us what your thoughts are on barrel break-in?
This is an awesome thread. Thought about and read about a lot of this as well but it's nice to see it confirmed by a few knowledgeable folks.
Barrel break in. On custom barrels you're breaking in/ smoothing up the throat. See Pic. There is a trailing wire edge on one side of the land. Size dependents on feed rate and sharpness of the reamer. You have the rough finish left on the angle cut on the lands. All that needs to be smoothed up. I do an in house break in before anything leaves the shop and it all but eliminates break in. On my own barrels I clean after 3 rounds while sighting in the rifle. Then start shooting groups working up loads. Small cases I clean after every 5 rounds for maybe 4 groups. Then I keep an eye on copper build up. That can vary from barrel to barrel as well bullet to bullet. For example Sierra anneals their jackets before making bullets. Most others don't. The faster a bullet goes the more attention the barrel will probably need.
Factory barrels. I can't give a recommendation. To many variables which change frequently.
Factory barrels. I can't give a recommendation. To many variables which change frequently.
Wow, great thread. I know that benchrest accuracy is a different story than what a lot of shooter here expect. Even though a lot of rifles you will see for non BR use shoots about as well. I shoot BR also so I know what a lot of these guys expect. I used to clean rifles a lot and break them in in a similar method to the aforementioned. Quality bbls always is the most important part just as we all know.
My last bbl I bought and used was a 20" gain twist Bartlien that was 1-10 start and 1-8 on the muzzle. I decided that I would see what that bbl would do with no break in and no real schedule on cleaning. It was chambered by GA Precision in 6.5 CM.
I first took the rifle out and its first shots ever were in a 600yd BR match. I was worried because the sighters were all over the place, very inaccurate. But after 20 shots or so it tightened up and did very well. The first score was like 38 or something all over and my ending scores were in the 47-48 area. Gun is not a BR rifle though.
Shot the gun pretty hard and after 1000 rounds I decided to clean the bore and chamber up. I used shooters choice copper remover that time and it cleaned up nice and fast. I was very impressed. SHot it the next day and cold bore was dead on. Impressed again.
Shot the gun hard again until I went to 1750 rounds. Had a lot of cleaning stuff out doing other rifles before I left the house for a while so I decided I would clean it as well. This time I used TM solution and again, very quick and easy cleaning. Shot clean cold bore again the next day and it was perfect. Ripped the POA out and put 2 more in the same hole before I moved away from that paper target. Very happy. Now I'm at 1800 rounds and accuracy is still top notch, cold bores are repeatable, and drop is consistent. I'm wondering if I should continue this method on future bbls.
FWIW I have tried this on 3 Kreigers that are top notch bbls with the results not being even close. I'm wondering if the Bartliens have a little magic in them. I have 2 more to be arriving soon and I don't know if I will do this again but I'm thinking will do one and not the other. See how that goes. I understand that a factory 6.5CM load is not super hot and the results might not be the same. But I have been very impressed to say the least and really shocked as it was not was I was expecting to happen. SHooting with one of the most demanding shooters on the planet had taught me otherwise, both in field shooting and benchrest. And I'm not at all saying that it is wrong to have a proper break in and cleaning scheldule for your rifle. But this has really made me wonder. Sorry for the long post but I find this very interesting. Now I am curious about how long it will take this bbl to give away. I've got only about 1k rounds until the mark of where Hognuts bbl is round count wise. Maybe I will bring this thread back to life when that time comes to show my results. I might even take the mil to it at that point but really just planned on using it for my short range NV/suppressor rifle. Mr. Tooley, do think since the bbl is on the last stretch of life I should adopt a cleaning scheldule to really try to get the most out of it? Or if its not broke don't fix it type midset? Curious as to what yall think as I'm nowhere near the level of others here on knowledge of accuracy. I just try to extract accuracy from loads,cleaning, shooting fundamentals, and basic ballistic knowledge. Thanks!!
My last bbl I bought and used was a 20" gain twist Bartlien that was 1-10 start and 1-8 on the muzzle. I decided that I would see what that bbl would do with no break in and no real schedule on cleaning. It was chambered by GA Precision in 6.5 CM.
I first took the rifle out and its first shots ever were in a 600yd BR match. I was worried because the sighters were all over the place, very inaccurate. But after 20 shots or so it tightened up and did very well. The first score was like 38 or something all over and my ending scores were in the 47-48 area. Gun is not a BR rifle though.
Shot the gun pretty hard and after 1000 rounds I decided to clean the bore and chamber up. I used shooters choice copper remover that time and it cleaned up nice and fast. I was very impressed. SHot it the next day and cold bore was dead on. Impressed again.
Shot the gun hard again until I went to 1750 rounds. Had a lot of cleaning stuff out doing other rifles before I left the house for a while so I decided I would clean it as well. This time I used TM solution and again, very quick and easy cleaning. Shot clean cold bore again the next day and it was perfect. Ripped the POA out and put 2 more in the same hole before I moved away from that paper target. Very happy. Now I'm at 1800 rounds and accuracy is still top notch, cold bores are repeatable, and drop is consistent. I'm wondering if I should continue this method on future bbls.
FWIW I have tried this on 3 Kreigers that are top notch bbls with the results not being even close. I'm wondering if the Bartliens have a little magic in them. I have 2 more to be arriving soon and I don't know if I will do this again but I'm thinking will do one and not the other. See how that goes. I understand that a factory 6.5CM load is not super hot and the results might not be the same. But I have been very impressed to say the least and really shocked as it was not was I was expecting to happen. SHooting with one of the most demanding shooters on the planet had taught me otherwise, both in field shooting and benchrest. And I'm not at all saying that it is wrong to have a proper break in and cleaning scheldule for your rifle. But this has really made me wonder. Sorry for the long post but I find this very interesting. Now I am curious about how long it will take this bbl to give away. I've got only about 1k rounds until the mark of where Hognuts bbl is round count wise. Maybe I will bring this thread back to life when that time comes to show my results. I might even take the mil to it at that point but really just planned on using it for my short range NV/suppressor rifle. Mr. Tooley, do think since the bbl is on the last stretch of life I should adopt a cleaning scheldule to really try to get the most out of it? Or if its not broke don't fix it type midset? Curious as to what yall think as I'm nowhere near the level of others here on knowledge of accuracy. I just try to extract accuracy from loads,cleaning, shooting fundamentals, and basic ballistic knowledge. Thanks!!
My gunsmith is a benchrest shooter and he told me that carbon fouling is what wears a barrel. His regiment is some kind of brushing, then a patch with copper solvent, more brushing, then a dry patch. He does this every 25 rounds.
The look on his face was priceless when I showed him a group that was shot with the rifle he built for me. The barrel is a 6.5x47 Bartlein 1:8 5R stainless and just keeps shooting better and better. Zero break-in or anything run down the barrel at 100 rounds and it is shooting under 3/8" at 100.
Is it the carbon fouling left in the barrel for the extended periods that hurts the barrel or is it shooting on top of the carbon that drags it through the barrel causing wear?
The look on his face was priceless when I showed him a group that was shot with the rifle he built for me. The barrel is a 6.5x47 Bartlein 1:8 5R stainless and just keeps shooting better and better. Zero break-in or anything run down the barrel at 100 rounds and it is shooting under 3/8" at 100.
Is it the carbon fouling left in the barrel for the extended periods that hurts the barrel or is it shooting on top of the carbon that drags it through the barrel causing wear?
Mr. Tooley what about gas guns with smaller bores. 6 creedmoor, .243 etc etc. Is their a damage control cleaning and care you would recommend.
Mr. Comfort and HOG, thanks a ton for doing what you guys do. So much more information about these weapons than some tend to pick on. It may be useless information for some smiths or others who are elite in shooting abilities lol. But us mortals it adds another tool to our tool box why we didnt hit that target
Mr. Comfort and HOG, thanks a ton for doing what you guys do. So much more information about these weapons than some tend to pick on. It may be useless information for some smiths or others who are elite in shooting abilities lol. But us mortals it adds another tool to our tool box why we didnt hit that target
The same rules apply to gas guns. The one factor that really can affect heat checking and cleaning regime is the rate of fire. I know if I was sitting on a good PD town I might melt down a gas gun. Here's a way, not always fool proof but works well most of the time. Have a clean barrel. Push a tight fitting dry patch to the muzzle. Then pull it back through the chamber. If you have moderate to severe heat checking and/or carbon build up you will feel more and more resistance on the cleaning rod handle as you closer to the throat. If that occurs then break out the abrasives, a tight patch and scrub/polish awhile in that area.
Here's something I do with bolt guns in the summer time that will help gas guns as well. While I'm at the range I can shoot instead of watching mirage rise off my barrel. I take a gallon cooler/jug of ice water along. I have one of those old red rubber bulbs with a snout on it that is used to put acid in batteries. I suck it full, insert the tube in the chamber, position the muzzle down and trickle ice water down the barrel. I'll rotate the gun 180 degrees halfway through. On a hunting weight barrel it is usually cool to the touch at that point. Heavier barrels will still hold a little heat but not much. One dry patch, a quick brushing with solvent, two more dry patches and I'm back shooting again. An investment of 5 minutes and I don't hurt my barrel anymore than necessary while keeping up with cleaning. Instead of one cold bore shot I get multiple shots in a day. Cool and clean barrels might surprise you. I understand there are times and course of fires where you can't do this but while enjoying a lazy range day you'll spend more time shooting instead of watching a hot barrel slowly cool off. You can rig up a turkey baster with a piece of hose and clamp. A bottle of some kind set up like an IV drip. Use your imagination there. You could even hook it up to rod guide. Been doing this over 30 years and no ill effects.
As always YMMV
This thread is a perfect example of why I love this community and sport.
Bringing heads together and sharing experiences will help keep us moving forward.
Mr. Tooley, what are your thoughts on carbon fiber wrapped barrels and other systems? Many say they extend barrel life buy reducing heat.
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Bringing heads together and sharing experiences will help keep us moving forward.
Mr. Tooley, what are your thoughts on carbon fiber wrapped barrels and other systems? Many say they extend barrel life buy reducing heat.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have to say I'm one of the doubters about the heat dissipation hype. Here's why. More/faster heat dissipation means faster heat transfer to the exterior and initially the exterior should be hotter and more barrel mirage not less of each. It's the you can't fool mother nature thing. It can't act as heat sink without getting hotter. The thermal energy is generated so where is it? In a few months I'll have more information and be able to tell you what I think about it and in a couple of years I'll tell you what I know. All this is just my personal opinion. I think with the current level of technology it can work but with limits.
Hi Gentlemen I'm new to the forum and new to long range shooting. I have a 6.5 Creedmore that I'm just doing load development with so I find this thread very interesting. I' curious what Mr. Tooley thinks about bore treatments like Dyna Bore Coat that leaves a ceramic coating in the bore of your barrel and also fire lapping to smooth out and polish the bore giving coper fewer places to attach to. I would be curious how it would work in combination of fire lapping the bore to polish it cleaning it to bare metal and then coating with Dyna Bore Coat. I've coated three of my rifle barrels and it has made copper fouling clean up very quick and easy. The loss of velocity the original poster wrote about, would that not be caused by lower pressures from the longer throat now in the rifle. Sort of like having the same power charge in a larger case would result in less velocity because of less pressure. Any volume created before engagement into the leade and rifling would be like having a larger case capacity. Very interesting subject and great pictures.
I'm not familiar with that bore coating. I have never seen anything that really helps other than never shoot on a squeaky clean bore if you can help it. A dry bullet rubbing against a dry bore has a gauling affect and lays down copper from the jacket. I always put a very light coat of oil in the bore for the first shot. After that there's powder fouling for lubrication. Concerning fire lapping. Never on a custom barrel. We pay a lot of money to get a nice coarse lapped finish. Smoother is not good. More bearing surface tends to pick up copper.
I had a Schneider 1-10 twist polygon bore barrel in 300 Win mag on a McMillan M40A1 type rifle. Accuracy fell off around 1150 rounds, so I had the rifle re-barreled. A friend of mine (who knew the history of the tube) asked if he could buy the used barrel for $100 so I sold it to him. He took it to a gunsmith who scoped the barrel and then asked why the barrel was removed...he said the barrel looked beautiful, but he could see a little throat wear. He cut .75" off the throat, and .25 inch off the muzzle, and mounted the barrel onto his Rem 700 long action. That barrel is still shooting easy half inch groups at 100 yards.
The next barrel I had was set back at 900 rounds, and it is still shooting great.
I think it is very interesting to see how the throats of different cartridges wear over time, so many thanks for posting the photos.
The next barrel I had was set back at 900 rounds, and it is still shooting great.
I think it is very interesting to see how the throats of different cartridges wear over time, so many thanks for posting the photos.
Mine was toast after 3940 rounds that I counted and several hundred more that were "plinked" (usually rounds that showed bad accuracy and I just shot 'em up).
I heated this tube up a couple of times at Thunder Ranch (HART class). Eventually, the cases necks stayed in the chamber. The 'smith stuck a "go/no-go" guage in and said it was time to rebarrel
I did the "recut and re-chamber" thing, but accuracy fell off after 1000 rounds.
Bartlien has my deposit right now.
BMT
Very cool pictures! Thanks for posting. 3K rounds is not a lot for some rifles (.308, for example.) But some of the really high-performance rounds really do take their toll.
Great info.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Great info.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Here's a question- .308 cal--
Dave-How often do you recut/renew the crown?
When accuracy falls off-How often do you find it's from muzzle erosion?
THX,
LG
Dave-How often do you recut/renew the crown?
When accuracy falls off-How often do you find it's from muzzle erosion?
THX,
LG
I know some touch up crowns after every 5-600 rounds. I'm not sure that's necessary except on BR guns. Probably a mental thing. This will touch some nerves but if you don't clean a barrel after shooting you increase the likelihood of pitting just inside the muzzle for about .500". That can't be good. It attracts moisture and sets up a reaction. If you have factory CM barrels you have to clean. For S/S barrels at the very least push a dry patch down the barrel to get the powder fouling laying on top. When I was active in 1000 Yd comp I always replaced barrels because of age and never recrowned barrels. Those were magnums with 1000-1300 rounds. They had lost their edge but still shot well. But I never wanted to stretch it too far. I would plan to have a fresh barrel on in time to tune it up for the National Championships every other year.
I plan on doing the same thing with a 6mm Creedmoor barrel I just burnt out after 2500 rounds in 4.5 months 2300 of which shot great. I'm going to mill the length of the barrel since I was told that not only was the throat was gone but there were not any visible edges on the rifling either after they borescoped it. I have not seen it but I know it shot like crap for the last 200-250 rounds, as in best 100 yard group was 3.5" bad! No setting that bad boy back!
2300 of which shot great. I'm going to mill the length of the barrel since I was told that not only was the throat was gone but there were not any visible edges on the rifling either after they borescoped it. I have not seen it but I know it shot like crap for the last 200-250 rounds, as in best 100 yard group was 3.5" bad! No setting that bad boy back!
