Cutting Edge 22 ELR ammo

[roostercogburn98]

The 3k rifle doesnt help them like people think. Very little in fact. If we can get more consistent ammo that may help but also not as much as some people think with positional shooting. Less wind drift definitely will help.

There should be no discretion in ammo choices for matches is what I was getting at. Take as many variables out and then see who is truly a better marksman versus who has an advantage because of A, B, or C is my point. Some people around here are notorious for saying “should have made better choices” when it comes to components and gear. If I can have the ability to load for a rimfire and get maximum results, then it should be allowed. Otherwise we should say only factory ammo for any match or gun? In the end, nothing makes up for proficiency and fundamentals.

 

[Geno C.]

If you were to send the CF bullet out at 1050 it would have less wind drift out to 3-350. Wind drift and constancy is what matters.
For your bullet what weight approx is it? 1250 will be great for ELR but once again for NRL/PRS in the 1050-1080 would be the best for wind.
We just had the reloaded copper bullet discussion for our series in canada. Will it help the top guys? Maybe but the biggest issue is all the people who are scared to lose. It doesnt matter if something helps or not statistically its all in the perception of it. E.g. 2 out of the top 3 were shooting CZ this year but people have issues with being in the same division as Vudoo etc.
It was decided to not allow the reloaded ammo and see how things shake down. Maybe another division? It is great so see people working and experimenting with the 22lr to improve it as I think the 22 is one of the keys to growing sports shooting.

How would me slowing my bullet from 1250 to 1050 be better in the wind??? My bullet is 49.5gr currently and has a .250g1

 

[Geno C.]

And for some reason TRASOL struggles with windage with my bullet/barrel. I’m guessing it’s because of the fast twist. The drops line up though

 

[Gleedus]

How would me slowing my bullet from 1250 to 1050 be better in the wind??? My bullet is 49.5gr currently and has a .250g1

Nice so it is heavier!

The least efficient bullet flight is just before/ at transonic flight. A bullet going 1050 fps if you speed it up would have to go 1700 fps to match the same drift out to 3-400 yards depending on different factors. Out to 100 yards the best for wind is 950-980 fps.
As the bullet slows down even more the drag becomes greater and the bullet drifts more sonif your shooting ELR starting off faster 1200-1250 will help maximize the time in the most efficient flight. Often people think that wind drift is a (time of flight X wind speed) type of equation but it is not. A bullet only sees a head wind and the more side wind there is it simply is changing the direction that the head wind is hitting the bullet. Same Idea if you stick your head out the sunroof at 100 mpr you dont feel the side wind.

 

[Gleedus]

And for some reason TRASOL struggles with windage with my bullet/barrel. I’m guessing it’s because of the fast twist. The drops line up though

Its not because of the spindrift? It will be substantial at a 1-6 or faster twist?

 

[Geno C.]

Its not because of the spindrift? It will be substantial at a 1-6 or faster twist?

Spin drift is turned off

 

[Gleedus]

Spin drift is turned off

Is it closer with it turned on? A 1-6 will have over 1 mil of spin drift. (That is one think that keeps my shy of fast twist for prs)

 

[Geno C.]

At 100yd is makes no difference for some reason.

 

[Gleedus]

At 100yd is makes no difference for some reason.

My bad I forgot to say at 300 yd. I normally use AB. At 100 I get 0.2 mil but thats just If i use a eley match bullet dimensions.@1-6 with 1-16 I get 0.0
But if i make the bullet 1" long then the spin drift is the same at a regular bullet at 1-16.
When I mentioned twist first I forgot your bullet is very long and I have always figured it out with a short bullet when messing with 22lr.
The math behind spin drift is tied to the stability of the bullet not how many RPM. Trust me I dont understand why! AB, Lapua, Hornady all come up with slightly different results. Same for AJ but I'm not one to stress a 0.1 here or there.

 

[Geno C.]

I stress everything! But almost all of my charts are real life driven. I use TRASOL to get close if I don’t have a data point already

 

[Dthomas3523]

There should be no discretion in ammo choices for matches is what I was getting at. Take as many variables out and then see who is truly a better marksman versus who has an advantage because of A, B, or C is my point. Some people around here are notorious for saying “should have made better choices” when it comes to components and gear. If I can have the ability to load for a rimfire and get maximum results, then it should be allowed. Otherwise we should say only factory ammo for any match or gun? In the end, nothing makes up for proficiency and fundamentals.

Completely different discussion. Check out the Comp part of the forum and jump in.

However, remember, everything has restrictions. No aluminum bats in MLB.

The blueprint is out there in every other game/sport and for some reason, we don’t follow that. We will be changing that with our endeavors. Restrictions are there for a reason. Otherwise, we might as well just shoot .22 magnum or centerfire.

 

[Geno C.]

Completely different discussion. Check out the Comp part of the forum and jump in.

However, remember, everything has restrictions. No aluminum bats in MLB.

The blueprint is out there in every other game/sport and for some reason, we don’t follow that. We will be changing that with our endeavors. Restrictions are there for a reason. Otherwise, we might as well just shoot .22 magnum or centerfire.

So what is your rule going to say? No copper solids or no hand loaded ammo?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Completely different discussion. Check out the Comp part of the forum and jump in.

However, remember, everything has restrictions. No aluminum bats in MLB.

The blueprint is out there in every other game/sport and for some reason, we don’t follow that. We will be changing that with our endeavors. Restrictions are there for a reason. Otherwise, we might as well just shoot .22 magnum or centerfire.

Rules are rules, I know that. My beef is more along the line of why this rule and not that rule. The MLB banned aluminum bats based off the principal of “ability not technology” which is what I was stating. It doesn’t matter if the guy with all the top gear and ammo sucks at fundamentals, he is still gonna suck. The good shooters that consistently shoot good, should shoot a tiny bit better with another variable eliminated. It boils down to shooters ability and not technology. Do these 22 matches test for MV randomly during the comps, or do they take a guys word for it?

 

[Frankr]

The 3k rifle doesnt help them like people think. Very little in fact. If we can get more consistent ammo that may help but also not as much as some people think with positional shooting. Less wind drift definitely will help.

Local NRL22 match I went to, some young kid with a stock 455 but matched ammo to his gun cleaned up handily. Don't get me wrong, the guys there with Vudoos, NF/S&B/ZC etc.. scopes and matched Lapua ammo clean up well but the shooter and matched ammo seems more important

 

[Gleedus]

Local NRL22 match I went to, some young kid with a stock 455 but matched ammo to his gun cleaned up handily. Don't get me wrong, the guys there with Vudoos, NF/S&B/ZC etc.. scopes and matched Lapua ammo clean up well but the shooter and matched ammo seems more important

Thats awesome! We had a 14 year old get 9th overall in the CRPS series last year.... with a savage in a plastic stock he won off the prize table first match of the season!! You can't under estimate the young guns eh!!

 

[Danny1788]

I still think that a 20cal in the little WSM case would be badass. Better bullet BC with lighter weights and the larger case to drive them.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I applaud the pushing of the envelope. 15 years ago matches with just single load rules would have stopped the Voodo and 22lr mag fed bolt gun revolution we had in the mean time.

To me, the question is why are we working up these guns? Are they a stand-alone exercise or is it a way to practice for centerfire shooting. I tend towards the replication of larger guns, not 22 for 22 sake. That means that I want some kind of scalability and feedback.

With my Elrod-40X Conversion and CenterX acts like a 1/4 scale 308 and about a 1/5 6/, I think that the 'system' acts predictably out to 170ish yards, Beyond that the variability leads to noise in learning. I think the 22 trainers work out well for practice under 150 yards, or 600 yard centerfire shots, so lots of positional shots like Hosers Pueblo match.

Jbell, I think, had the Moon modded repeater from GAP (I may have messed that all up) and now we all have access to that kind of gun for far less. I don't think that we will see a 10x drop in ammo prices for these solids, but maybe they get competitive with higher end ammo. Plus, if it really shines past 200 yards, that to me is another game- like PRS vs ELR.

I think the idea of classes for ammo makes sense, since that is a bigger driver most other gear stuff.

And I'll add one more 'kid' with a cheap gun and ammo. My son runs his 455VPT, SS 10x scope and Wolf ME ammo like a beast, and has for years. Young eyes, fast fingers, sound fundamentals.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Right now with current ammo 22 rifles also have basically unlimited barrel life. If we go to the sOllie’s, are we then going to have barrel wear as a variable and a cost factor? Are you gonna have to get the copper out of the barrels also? Also it looks like they won’t fit in standard mags? That seems a pretty easy way to legislate it. Restrict the overall length of the magazine. Or at least have that as a discriminator.

 

[Geno C.]

Right now with current ammo 22 rifles also have basically unlimited barrel life. If we go to the sOllie’s, are we then going to have barrel wear as a variable and a cost factor? Are you gonna have to get the copper out of the barrels also? Also it looks like they won’t fit in standard mags? That seems a pretty easy way to legislate it. Restrict the overall length of the magazine. Or at least have that as a discriminator.

The cutting edge was specifically designed to be the same oal as standard 22lr Is a 308 loaded long and shot from a long action mag still a 308 and able to shoot in 308 classes? What about 223?
Too soon to tell about the effect these will have on barrel life. I’m going to assume with such a small amount of powder, that barrel life will still be extremely long. It’s the heat that kills barrels fat more than the bullet it’s friction on the rifling. I don’t have a problem with copper fouling with my bullet but we use a different copper than CE does so I couldn’t speak for their bullet

 

[Boltyboi]

Let me preface this by saying that I am all for technology moving forward, pushing the envelope etc. I also get that some guys just want to maximize whatever they do. I also do not compete with a .22lr, I use it as a cheap anologe to my centerfires.

The moment this ammo requires a dedicated twist barrel, and doesn't mag feed out of standard magazines I have no interest. In my opinion that isn't even really .22lr any more.

Why would I want to spend much more on ammo, to the point where I'm edging into .223? No matter what you do with a rimfire, the .223 will spank it in terms of consistency as a centerfire. Brass will be more consistent, and reusable. Not to mention dramatically better balistics. I could potentially run sub sonic high bc solids out of it in any grain weight I desire.

If the goal is a reloadable, sub sonic, high consistency .22 calibre for playing around with. 22lr like performance at .22lr elr ranges, unless im confined by competition rules, the answer to that is a slow .224 centerfire wildcat.

If I need to buy a new rifle and or barrel anyways, and I don't get the advantage of being able to run off the shelf .22lr said wildcat does everything better.

New ammo I CAN reload for, shoots out of existing .22s and mags, gets me better performance, etc when I want to, and still have the option for anything from cci sv up to center x? Awesome. Im in.

New ammo i now must reload for, precludes the use of normal ammo, possibly has to be single fed or need different mags, negates one of the main advantages in cost saving by reusing brass... thats a tough sell.

 

[roostercogburn98]

The cutting edge was specifically designed to be the same oal as standard 22lr Is a 308 loaded long and shot from a long action mag still a 308 and able to shoot in 308 classes? What about 223?
Too soon to tell about the effect these will have on barrel life. I’m going to assume with such a small amount of powder, that barrel life will still be extremely long. It’s the heat that kills barrels fat more than the bullet it’s friction on the rifling. I don’t have a problem with copper fouling with my bullet but we use a different copper than CE does so I couldn’t speak for their bullet

Some of these places should get rid of CIP mags and AI chambers while we’re at it. If we apply all fair across the board anyway?

 

[steve123]

My thoughts are to make a separate division for advancing the solids in 22rf which will satisfy those that like to experiment. This way those using regular box ammo won't get discouraged if competing against them. No risk then of losing membership from people that aren't in the "solids" camp, and I'm sure there will be a lot of them.

Personally I think the "tiny" centerfire thing should be explored. I love shooting reduced loads in my 20-221AI based off the 221 Fireball case but honestly it's quite overbore. Probably never catch on but I like the whole idea of it from the low ES, and other great "little" benefits.

 

[Geno C.]

It’s easy to get bullets for a tiny centerfire. There are plenty of them out there. They really don’t have anything to do with 22lr though

 

[10ring1]

Getting back to the OPs original question after I have read a good bit of the comments and hope this isn't a duplicate thought...


As I have mentioned a while ago, the original ammo (elr solids) are a pipe dream, especially at a reasonable cost unless they plan on producing quality brass of their own. I love the innovative thought process, but logistically, don't get your hopes up.

 

[Geno C.]

Reasonable cost is relative.

For me to practice with my elr gun, it’s $1.60 per bullet and 150gr of powder and a .05 primer and a $2.60 case that I can reuse, say 10-15 times. It’s also a 5.5hour round trip to get to a spot that I can shoot 2800 yards.

What in your opinion would be reasonable cost of a bullet, 2-4gr of powder and a one time use case to be able to drive 5 miles to shoot 700 yards and have the same amount of drop as the elr rifle?

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Reasonable cost is relative.

For me to practice with my elr gun, it’s $1.60 per bullet and 150gr of powder and a .05 primer and a $2.60 case that I can reuse, say 10-15 times. It’s also a 5.5hour round trip to get to a spot that I can shoot 2800 yards.

What in your opinion would be reasonable cost of a bullet, 2-4gr of powder and a one time use case to be able to drive 5 miles to shoot 700 yards and have the same amount of drop as the elr rifle?

I think that gets to the heart of the matter. These solids are more ELR than PRS. I could see that worth 50 cents a shot or more.

Maybe 700yrd 22 competitions would support themselves. I’m really interested, and my guess of where the market is the largest, around PRS type shooting out to 250 or 300 yards.

 

[Bradu]

Reasonable cost is relative.

For me to practice with my elr gun, it’s $1.60 per bullet and 150gr of powder and a .05 primer and a $2.60 case that I can reuse, say 10-15 times. It’s also a 5.5hour round trip to get to a spot that I can shoot 2800 yards.

What in your opinion would be reasonable cost of a bullet, 2-4gr of powder and a one time use case to be able to drive 5 miles to shoot 700 yards and have the same amount of drop as the elr rifle?

This is where I'm at with the 22's. It is around 8 hours to the nearest range that goes to a mile. I'm currently setting up a vudoo and have a Charlie macro ordered to do what you are describing because the local ranges are 6-700 yards. It makes a lot more sense for me.

 

[Geno C.]

I think that gets to the heart of the matter. These solids are more ELR than PRS. I could see that worth 50 cents a shot or more.

Maybe 700yrd 22 competitions would support themselves. I’m really interested, and my guess of where the market is the largest, around PRS type shooting out to 250 or 300 yards.

Hard to say where the market is. I know why I designed my bullet. Now, I also considered the fact that being able to mag feed would be a good idea.

 

[One Mile Up]

I don't reload (currently)... but this just sounds fun... I already got on the pre-order list for the dies, 4lbs of 3N37 coming and 200 of their "pills"

Since I'm just getting into reloading - does anyone have a good press they'd recommend for this type of "job" (.22lr)? I'd like to just dedicate this press (single stage / turret / progressive) to just loading my .22lr -- if that helps.

I reached out to Dillion Precision to see if they recommended anything out of their line-up for loading .22lr and the rep said
"unfortunately, we do _not_ currently have anything for loading that round in our line-up".... that was a bummer because I had planned on using them for pretty much all my stuff in the future too... Oh well... hahaha!

Thanks in advance for any guidance!

 

[gkgeiger]

I don't reload (currently)... but this just sounds fun... I already got on the pre-order list for the dies, 4lbs of 3N37 coming and 200 of their "pills"

Since I'm just getting into reloading - does anyone have a good press they'd recommend for this type of "job" (.22lr)? I'd like to just dedicate this press (single stage / turret / progressive) to just loading my .22lr -- if that helps.

I reached out to Dillion Precision to see if they recommended anything out of their line-up for loading .22lr and the rep said
"unfortunately, we do _not_ currently have anything for loading that round in our line-up".... that was a bummer because I had planned on using them for pretty much all my stuff in the future too... Oh well... hahaha!

Thanks in advance for any guidance!

I like Harrell’s compact press.

 

[Frankr]

I’m hoping this works out well for them.

I hope it works well enough they branch out to .17 cal too.
Being able to reload 17hmr and 17hm2 for accuracy would be cool (it’s been done by guys pulling and reloading).

 

[acourvil]

I don't reload (currently)... but this just sounds fun... I already got on the pre-order list for the dies, 4lbs of 3N37 coming and 200 of their "pills"

Since I'm just getting into reloading - does anyone have a good press they'd recommend for this type of "job" (.22lr)? I'd like to just dedicate this press (single stage / turret / progressive) to just loading my .22lr -- if that helps.

I reached out to Dillion Precision to see if they recommended anything out of their line-up for loading .22lr and the rep said
"unfortunately, we do _not_ currently have anything for loading that round in our line-up".... that was a bummer because I had planned on using them for pretty much all my stuff in the future too... Oh well... hahaha!

Thanks in advance for any guidance!

Uniquetek sells a single stage conversion kit that lets you use the Dillon progressive presses as a single stage. You don’t get the ability to do progressive operations, but you don’t have to get a separate press.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

And Hoser gave me the F-U look last match when I was marshaling brass and I told him I was reloading....

 

[Hoser]

And Hoser gave me the F-U look last match when I was marshaling brass and I told him I was reloading....

Yes. Yes I did.

 

[One Mile Up]

I like Harrell’s compact press.

What about this one?

Harrell's Tooling Turret Press By Henry Harrell

Harrell's Tooling Turret Press

harrellsprec.com

I'm trying to visualize what the setup would have to look like -- I feel like a turret could work really well for reloading the .22lr. I'm going to guess that I'm going to need at least a 3 station turret?

Station 1: Powder die (I'll be dropping the powder manually so I'm assuming this would just be a die with a funnel on it?)
Station 2: Seating die
Station 3: Crimp die

This seems like it would be perfect! Is there any reason I'd ever need a 4th station for doing the .22lr? I can't think of anything...

 

[Lastsaint21]

A couple of us wanted to get into PRS style matches..When we started looking into it, it seemed your really needed to reload your own ammo. Didn't have to but it was best if you did. The draw to the 22 stuff, you didn't need to do that and the cost for the ammo was reasonable. It saved time and money, so we went that route and have had a blast. We can spend all of our time learning the basics, building positions, and getting better at wind calls..22LR's are fun because it's simple, it's easy because its uncomplicated. There is something organic and special when you are taking that beloved old 22LR from your childhood, just the way it is, and hitting a target at 400 yards..

I am not saying you hinder the new stuff, but I hope it gets it's own class..

 

[One Mile Up]

I totally agree with you man... but - I'm in dire need of a new hobby -- the reloading part of this is to basically give me something to do at home _other_ than watch t.v. or get stuck on that "honey do" list all the darn time!

Once again... I'm certainly not a great shooter (yet!) and don't ever really think I'll compete at any crazy level... my main goal is to:

1. Have fun! Learn something new (to me) that requires me to use my brain and challenges me!
2. Have some fun with my 11y.o. son who is really just now getting interested in firearms and _really_ wants me to teach him how to reload!

 

[gkgeiger]

What about this one?

Harrell's Tooling Turret Press By Henry Harrell

Harrell's Tooling Turret Press

harrellsprec.com

I'm trying to visualize what the setup would have to look like -- I feel like a turret could work really well for reloading the .22lr. I'm going to guess that I'm going to need at least a 3 station turret?

Station 1: Powder die (I'll be dropping the powder manually so I'm assuming this would just be a die with a funnel on it?)
Station 2: Seating die
Station 3: Crimp die

This seems like it would be perfect! Is there any reason I'd ever need a 4th station for doing the .22lr? I can't think of anything...

All their products are great, and if you want a turret I think that one would be goo. I originally bought mine to use with a Wilson seater. Now I use it for a Waltz sizer.

 

[One Mile Up]

All their products are great, and if you want a turret I think that one would be goo. I originally bought mine to use with a Wilson seater. Now I use it for a Waltz sizer.

You use those words like I know what they mean... hahaha! (Thank goodness for Google!) I appreciate you sending me that way... that company seems to have some really nice stuff...

I just came across this tho!

The ZERO Reloading Press

Note: Dust covers were included free of charge with the initial batch of presses, sold in Summer 2020. To add one of these USA Made, high-quality covers to your ZERO order, head >> HERE << As the quality and precision of reloading equipment has advanced in the last few years (AMP Annealers...

www.area419.com

I reached out to them and specifically linked the Cutting Edge .22lr die set / bullets to see if the ZERO press would indeed work to reload this round -- here was his reply:

"The ZERO press, when used with the cutting edge kit you linked, can certainly reload 22LR ammo. Also, with the use of common dies and shellholders, is also more than capable of loading 7mm Rem Mag - and all common calibers in between. "

I'm a buy once / cry once type of guy... so this is now on the table too! I have wanted to get into ELR shooting / reloading for forever now and this press seems like it might be a "do-all"!

 

[gkgeiger]

You use those words like I know what they mean... hahaha! (Thank goodness for Google!) I appreciate you sending me that way... that company seems to have some really nice stuff...

I just came across this tho!

The ZERO Reloading Press

Note: Dust covers were included free of charge with the initial batch of presses, sold in Summer 2020. To add one of these USA Made, high-quality covers to your ZERO order, head >> HERE << As the quality and precision of reloading equipment has advanced in the last few years (AMP Annealers...

www.area419.com

I reached out to them and specifically linked the Cutting Edge .22lr die set / bullets to see if the ZERO press would indeed work to reload this round -- here was his reply:

"The ZERO press, when used with the cutting edge kit you linked, can certainly reload 22LR ammo. Also, with the use of common dies and shellholders, is also more than capable of loading 7mm Rem Mag - and all common calibers in between. "

I'm a buy once / cry once type of guy... so this is now on the table too! I have wanted to get into ELR shooting / reloading for forever now and this press seems like it might be a "do-all"!

I got into RFBR so I wouldn’t have to hand load anymore. Although factory ammo can be frustrating. Good luck with your loading. I’ll be waiting to hear how it goes.

 

[Geno C.]

I got into RFBR so I wouldn’t have to hand load anymore. Although factory ammo can be frustrating. Good luck with your loading. I’ll be waiting to hear how it goes.

By having people handloaded and push the performance of 22lr ammo, it will push the manufacturers to step up also if they want to be the winners

 

[acourvil]

Midway just got 3N37 in stock if anyone is looking

 

[Gjmen22]

Midway just got 3N37 in stock if anyone is looking

And it was gone, just like that.

 

[MOshooter]

Any word on shipping dates?

 

[One Mile Up]

Nope, not yet... I’ll be sure to post here once they (Cutting Edge) send me confirmation of shipment of both my “pills” as well as my die set.

 

[Geno C.]

And it was gone, just like that.

There are other options

 

[One Mile Up]

There are other options

I'm curious... what powder are you having good luck with _other_ than the 3N37? (I just got 4lbs delivered to me the other day... but it would be good to know other options!)

 

[Geno C.]

For my bullet, anything between lil gun and longshot should be very good.

 

[acourvil]

So is 3n37 too fast for the larger copper bullets?

 

[Geno C.]

For my 50gr it isn’t ideal