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Sidearms & Scatterguns Dan Wesson Specialist vs Springfield TRP Operator
- Thread starter Nosler243Shooter
- Start date
You do know springfield has a limited warranty too right?
The chance of my DW needing factory service is about 0. They don't leave the factory wrong.... this thing called QC.
To be fair, Springfield CS is really good, and DWs sometimes need to go back for a tuneup. A buddy's ECO had to go back because the front sight was the wrong height. They took care of it ASAP.
Most modern service pistols will outperform most 1911's. My Les Baer is both more accurate and more reliable than both my M&P 45 and my HK45c. And it better be... it cost 50% more than my HK, and about triple my M&P.
I highly doubt that unless you have a lemon HK45. M&P's are pieces of shit so that's not saying much.
You most likley do not have enough rounds through either to make that determiniation. The numbers out in the real world say otherwise.
Both Glocks and H&K's are more reliable than just about any 1911 ever made. I can do shit to a glock that would make your Baer choke , spit up blood, and cry for help.
Yup. I think ToddG and Larry Vickers might know something about pistols.
Larry Is reguarded as one of the best 1911 smiths out there, and probally the finest 1911 armorer instructor you can find. What does he shoot? (besides everything, The man owns EVERYTHING)......Glocks
Yes they have some that do. But I agree with just about everything else you said.
Out of 8 i have or had, one had to go back for a chamber that was not even close to spec, a reaming was done and its been great for 15k rounds. Lots others on 1911forum have had to go back.
I actually really like the ergos on the M&P. I have 2. One is great. One is not as good. The Apex trigger helps a lot. Recoil management is so easy on the M&P. I think it has to do with the boreline axis.
I have had FTE's on both M&P and HK45 since my last Baer malfunction (which was a failure to lock back) and I shoot the Baer more than the others. I am not going to count some ammo that I made that was out of spec. I didn't tighten down the seating die and it got really long. My 1911 was the only pistol that could even digest it. It would not go into battery in either the M&P or HK. I figured the Baer would have a much tighter chamber, but I guess it is cut a little deeper.
Theoretically, the HK and M&P should be more reliable. That cartridge has a long way to jump from the mag to the barrel in the 1911. But with Tripp Cobra mags, my Baer just runs and runs. BUT I field strip, clean, and lube after almost every use, which is one of the tricks to keeping a 1911 running.
The thing about 1911's is that if you dump enough money into them, the design can be maximized. It can be highly reliable and stupid accurate. On a fixed budget, a plastic gun can't be beat.
I have had FTE's on both M&P and HK45 since my last Baer malfunction (which was a failure to lock back) and I shoot the Baer more than the others. I am not going to count some ammo that I made that was out of spec. I didn't tighten down the seating die and it got really long. My 1911 was the only pistol that could even digest it. It would not go into battery in either the M&P or HK. I figured the Baer would have a much tighter chamber, but I guess it is cut a little deeper.
Theoretically, the HK and M&P should be more reliable. That cartridge has a long way to jump from the mag to the barrel in the 1911. But with Tripp Cobra mags, my Baer just runs and runs. BUT I field strip, clean, and lube after almost every use, which is one of the tricks to keeping a 1911 running.
The thing about 1911's is that if you dump enough money into them, the design can be maximized. It can be highly reliable and stupid accurate. On a fixed budget, a plastic gun can't be beat.
M&P is a turd.
It should not need a $100+ trigger to be shootable
It also has accuracy and barrel lockup problems. S&W is WELL aware of the issue from leaders in the shooting community, yet refuses to fix or even awknoledge the issue. Its cheaper for them to ignore it than to fix it.
Take a look at the latest shield recall
Take a look at all the Dept's dumping the M&P and going back to Glocks
I'm not even going to get into the rusting issue early on.
Glocks have had some problems the last couple years, that is what happens when you try and fix something that isn't broken. They have since fixed the problem and taken care of people who brought it to their attention.
HK's are nice, but the Base price coupled with mag prices and parts just is not worth it for me. I still plan on getting a HK45C sometime in the near future.
If you dump enough money into anything, you can get it to work.
SFOD-Delta realized this as stated in the linked article above. If the best shooters in the world find 1911's to maintance intensive and not reliable enough... than that says something. Want to guess what they have replaced the 1911's with? Glocks and HK's.
It should not need a $100+ trigger to be shootable
It also has accuracy and barrel lockup problems. S&W is WELL aware of the issue from leaders in the shooting community, yet refuses to fix or even awknoledge the issue. Its cheaper for them to ignore it than to fix it.
Take a look at the latest shield recall
Take a look at all the Dept's dumping the M&P and going back to Glocks
I'm not even going to get into the rusting issue early on.
Glocks have had some problems the last couple years, that is what happens when you try and fix something that isn't broken. They have since fixed the problem and taken care of people who brought it to their attention.
HK's are nice, but the Base price coupled with mag prices and parts just is not worth it for me. I still plan on getting a HK45C sometime in the near future.
If you dump enough money into anything, you can get it to work.
SFOD-Delta realized this as stated in the linked article above. If the best shooters in the world find 1911's to maintance intensive and not reliable enough... than that says something. Want to guess what they have replaced the 1911's with? Glocks and HK's.
The M&P 9mm has accuracy problems due to the fast unlocking. The barrel has to be just the right dimensions or accuracy is all over the board. I have read that this is because the M&P was originally designed for .40. The 9mm was not as well conceived. The 45 theoretically does not have the same issues, but of the 2 that I own, 1 is a hair less accurate than my Baer, the other is a little less accurate than my HK.
These are manufacturing tolerances and it is a similar story with all factory pistols. I shot a Glock 29 in 10mm and it was spot on accurate. That was it... I was getting a Glock. Then I had a friend bring his Glock 17 to the ranch and it was embarrasingly inaccurate. It would not group at 7 yards. This is the problem with factory pistols. Loose tolerances stack up. Sometimes you get a gem, sometimes you get a dud. That is why all of these people on this site spend lots of dollars on custom rifles.
The argument for getting a Glock is similar to the argument to getting a 1911. The platform has been around forever and there are aftermarket parts to fix whatever ails it. Don't like the grip angle? There are plenty of shops that will reprofile the grip. Accuracy? Lone Wolf makes some great barrels.
Back to the 1911 question... This is an awesome thread with a custom 1911 gunsmith dissecting several top 1911's, analyzing the parts, and then Ransom Rest shooting them.
2011 Severns Custom "THUNDER IN THE WEST" shoot-out! - 1911Forum
He comes away impressed with the DW Valor, but the Springer does quite well as well. He also makes the point many time that this is a comparison of an individual gun from a manufacture to an individual gun from another manufacturer. You can't extrapolate from one gun across an entire manufacturer or even an entire line.
Yea man. That is the exact test that sold me on buying my First DW. It's great to see independent tests like that by experts and experienced smiths/builders.
Having owned both a TRP and a DW Valor I can 100% tell you this is false. Unfortunately I have owned a CBOB and a Valor which both required a trip back to DW.
I still own a TRP and I much prefer it to the DW. Would I buy another DW sure but not before a TRP, Wilson, or NH among others.
I've read that yes indeed, DWs can have problems. But I've concluded they can all have trouble. I have a Wilson that has not been right from the beginning (failure to feed, even with their recommended ammo) that needs to go back.
I like in the comparo linked to above the guy talks about how DWs are made -- low numbers, hand fitted -- but after close-tolerance machine work -- American parts, no MIM, etc. I think they can all have problems, but it's a numbers game and question of how good the quality, reliability, and accuracy, will be when you get one that is right. I suspect many sales DW loses to the TRP are primarily due to lack of availability of DWs and people can't see them in person before buying and, sadly, the tacticool factor.
The DWs give you more of the high-end for less money and have a higher likelihood, IMO, to be good to go from the get go. I suspect there's a reason you read so many stories on forums about Springfield's fantastic customer service -- people have needed it.
And none of this should be read as putting down other guns. I'm just saying you get a lot for the money with DW, but that wouldn't, and hasn't, stopped me from buying guns I wanted, even though I don't perceive them as being the good values I find DWs (I'm thinking of my two Ed Browns).
I'm all for buying all the variety of guns you can afford, that float your boat, and you're willing to learn the manual of arms for. Glocks, advocated above, don't float my boat. But I own three. Because I can't deny that they are what they are and they've earned their reputation. I own three HKs. Some randoms. And a crap load of revolvers including three or four Pythons. All of these things seem to go bang when I pull the trigger and allow me to hit the target satisfactorily enough for self defence work. But my nightstand gun is Sig P226 with a classic DA/SA action, even though I'm not much more passionate about them than I am Glocks. Why? It's the gun my wife can shoot well and readily operate all the controls of and easily clear if jammed. It's also close enough to her nightstand gun (P220 (her choice, by the way; she shoots it lights out and the single stack grips allow her a comfortable and secure hold and the slow push of a .45 is more pleasant for her than the pop of a .40)) that she can transition in a crises.
Ultimately, I'm sure there's no right answer -- though possibly some wrong ones
-- and people tend to favour what they're familiar with, what they already own, what they use at work, what floats their boat, what works for them, what fits their perceived priorities, etc. And few people ever want to admit they spent a lot of money wining and dining the fat, ugly, stupid, chick.
I like in the comparo linked to above the guy talks about how DWs are made -- low numbers, hand fitted -- but after close-tolerance machine work -- American parts, no MIM, etc. I think they can all have problems, but it's a numbers game and question of how good the quality, reliability, and accuracy, will be when you get one that is right. I suspect many sales DW loses to the TRP are primarily due to lack of availability of DWs and people can't see them in person before buying and, sadly, the tacticool factor.
The DWs give you more of the high-end for less money and have a higher likelihood, IMO, to be good to go from the get go. I suspect there's a reason you read so many stories on forums about Springfield's fantastic customer service -- people have needed it.
And none of this should be read as putting down other guns. I'm just saying you get a lot for the money with DW, but that wouldn't, and hasn't, stopped me from buying guns I wanted, even though I don't perceive them as being the good values I find DWs (I'm thinking of my two Ed Browns).
I'm all for buying all the variety of guns you can afford, that float your boat, and you're willing to learn the manual of arms for. Glocks, advocated above, don't float my boat. But I own three. Because I can't deny that they are what they are and they've earned their reputation. I own three HKs. Some randoms. And a crap load of revolvers including three or four Pythons. All of these things seem to go bang when I pull the trigger and allow me to hit the target satisfactorily enough for self defence work. But my nightstand gun is Sig P226 with a classic DA/SA action, even though I'm not much more passionate about them than I am Glocks. Why? It's the gun my wife can shoot well and readily operate all the controls of and easily clear if jammed. It's also close enough to her nightstand gun (P220 (her choice, by the way; she shoots it lights out and the single stack grips allow her a comfortable and secure hold and the slow push of a .45 is more pleasant for her than the pop of a .40)) that she can transition in a crises.
Ultimately, I'm sure there's no right answer -- though possibly some wrong ones
-- and people tend to favour what they're familiar with, what they already own, what they use at work, what floats their boat, what works for them, what fits their perceived priorities, etc. And few people ever want to admit they spent a lot of money wining and dining the fat, ugly, stupid, chick.
Gotta love the pissing match going on. I'd probably take a DW over the TRP if price was of no concern as the fit and finish is great on the DW's. That being said, I have not had a single issue with my TRP that gets used and abused. I would have no issue carrying it for work as it just runs and runs.
The Glock currently serves the role of Primary and Backup because as CobraCutter says, they just work and I would not shed a tear if something were to happen to one.
The Glock currently serves the role of Primary and Backup because as CobraCutter says, they just work and I would not shed a tear if something were to happen to one.
It's a statistical impossibility that any manufacturer has zero (0) PPM defects, unless they are not manufacturing anything. Anyone that claims a company (any) only ships perfect products is an idiot or knows little about manufacturing.
Lots of good 1911 choices from several companies. Competition for business is good for the customer and the result should be a quality product from one of the better players. If it's not "perfect" how a company handles issues is what separates good companies from great companies.
I've had a Nighthawk, Wilson, DW, Springfield, a bunch of Colts, Sigs, and just about every other 1911 except a Baer (gotta get one!) and I now have 2 Volkmann's (who is a custom builder here in Colorado), but out of all those, if I was staying under $2K or buying my first 1911, I too would go with the DW. You can get a stainless Valor for $1600 on GB right now.
So after reading everyones expert opinion, just get the one that feels best and that you can get a good deal on. You'll love it and you'll soon be buying more anyhow, meaning the real question is, which one do I buy first!
So after reading everyones expert opinion, just get the one that feels best and that you can get a good deal on. You'll love it and you'll soon be buying more anyhow, meaning the real question is, which one do I buy first!
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