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Dasher and 105/107 and n150?

handfull

handfull

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 20, 2021
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#1
Anyone had this work? Been tinkering with n150 as alternative to varget. I know some have made it work well with 109s, but I am struggling with 105 hybrids and 107 smks. SD is 2-3x varget for range of loads anywhere from 30gr (2880-ish) to 31gr (2980+), on the order of 15-20SD. Case fill issue? CCI450 with Alpha brass, ATV4 powder trickler, 266 die bushing. Tried in 2 Dashers (both with 700-ish rounds) and both didn't have good SDs, but shot pretty well (<.5MOA). Tried cleaning, scoped to make sure no carbon ring, etc. Thoughts?
 
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#2
105 hybrids and N150 is my preferred combo, however both my barrels are waaaayy slower than yours, as my 26” CRBs 1/7.5 chambered by TS customs with alpha legacy .154 fb reamer are giving me single digit SD over a 30 shots sample and 2820 fps muzzle velocity. I would start checking your scale first, 105 and n150 gave me half moa at any load between 30 and 31.5 tbh.
 
#3
One of my barrels (bartlein 1:7.5) is more like 2780. But if I run varget loaded ammo through the same barrels, they both have good SDs. If I run n150, the SDs are no good for either barrel (one at 2880 (Hart 1:7), one at 2780) - if there was a scale issue, I'd see problems in both loads. Both chambered with alpha reamer .120 FB - could be more jump is needed? Jumping .60 today. I'll double check everything because others have great experience like you. Thanks for feedback!
 
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#4
105 Hybrids and N150 in Alpha brass is what I use out of my 28” CRB. My match load is 30.4gn jumped 60 thou. It’s doing 2839 fps avg. SD is about 7 fps and ES in the mid 20’s.
 
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#6
I just started playing with it in a Dasher. Only put 40 rounds or so with some basic ladders. Initial testing seems promising, and similar charge weight/speed as varget.
 
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#8
I am baffled. Tested some today with varying seating depths, with 107s and 105s. CCI450, alpha brass, etc. Results with 7-shot strings were (avg velocity, ES, SD)

107 SMKs with 30.0gr n150
1. 1.726 CBTO - 2926, 24, 8.9
2. 1.756 CBTO - 2918, 28, 9.8
3. 1.785 CBTO - 2899, 34, 11.4
4. 1.816 CBTO - 2890, 54, 19.5
5. 1.847 CBTO - 2867, 29, 9.3

Then a string with 30 gr n150 and 105s
6. 1.780 - 2946, 79, 24.8

Then finally my control group which is the exact same ammo as #6, except 31gr varget.
7. 1.780 - 2938, 22.9, 6.9

Now, this is all alpha brass that is 14x fired, so maybe that is the problem. Maybe this barrel is just wonky, it's definitely way faster than usual even after thorough cleaning and borescope inspection. Will try some virgin as next step.
Randy
 
#9
What is your reloading process and what die are you using?
I flame anneal after each firing. I’m using a SAC resizing die with a .266 bushing and .2415 expander mandrel. The inside edge gets chamfered. Brass doesn’t even grow so I don’t trim the length. CCI 450’s as well. AutoTrickler V4.
 
#11
Update for anyone interested. Did a test with 2 strings of virgin alpha brass and one of control group of original ammo(30.0 gr n150, 107 SMK, 12x alpha brass). All 3 were SD 20+ and velocities 2925+. Brass prep eliminated as a factor.

Went home, cleaned the barrel for 30-40 mins, way more than normal. Threw Boretech carbon, boretech copper, Thoroclean at it until the barrel was close to bare metal. Went back out today, shot 5 strings of control group ammo. Velocities seemed to settle into 2890 range after 20 or so rounds. All 5 strings had SD of 9-10. So, conclusion I guess is that n150 doesn't like dirty barrel?? This barrel was cleaned every 2-300 rounds like any other I have shot.

I shot a 5-shot string of varget/105/alpha/cci450 in the middle of these strings, SD=3.5. I guess I'm gonna park n150 until another day, another barrel, another something. Hopefully this is helpful to someone somewhere.
 
#14
I’ve also struggles with N150 to get my SD’s as low as I get with Varget, but I’ve also noticed that as it gets warmer, my N150 SD’s shrink. I know it’s not super temperature sensitive, but it does seem to burn more consistently as the weather warms.

I live in Texas and noticed the weird SD’s over the winter. I thought my loading technique maybe got a little lazy and shabby. Tried my Varget load and had low SD’s. Then had a nice mid 70’s day and voila, my N150 SD’s shrank again to single digits.

For what it’s worth, even with the SD’s in the teens during the winter the load still was a hammer. Never felt like it was a contributing factor to missing targets. YMMV
 
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#16
Here is another way to look at N140 v N150.

The density of powders is looked at in two ways. One would be the value when there is no shape or packing factor, which is like saying the pure material without being an extruded granule. The other way is to look at the density when powders are used in their actual form which is affected by the size and shape of the kernel (packing factor). N150 may be a tiny bit more dense as a chemical compound, but it is less dense in terms of how we load.
@R_A_W The numbering of the VV powders isn't a law of physics, but generally a higher number is intended to mean "slower" not "faster". Of course these two are close and can be made to overlap if you play with pressure and bullet weights, so no big deal.

1741886019775.png
1741886052053.png

I will put Varget and H4350 here just in case folks want to dive down the rabbit hole.
1741887296078.png
1741887338015.png
 
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#17
Good stuff… ive never used that in GRT.

Looking at the numbers, I’d expect N150 to be a better substitute for Varget than N140, but that was not my experience at all in 25x47. I’m pretty ignorant re: all the numbers, but would lower specific heat be mitigated by a higher combustion coefficient (all other things being the same)?
 
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#18
R_A_W said:
Good stuff… ive never used that in GRT.

Looking at the numbers, I’d expect N150 to be a better substitute for Varget than N140, but that was not my experience at all in 25x47. I’m pretty ignorant re: all the numbers, but would lower specific heat be mitigated by a higher combustion coefficient (all other things being the same)?
Click to expand...
In most cartridges that work well (as compared to ones that just sort of work) with Varget, N140 tends to run close. That said, depending on the cartridge volume and weight of the bullet and length of the barrel being discussed, N150 can also kick in.

I really wish the answers to internal ballistics were simple, but in reality they are not. We just can't do it with a three term equation.

It takes nearly all of those listed values in the tables above plus those curves to make a model that mimics real results.

Lists that are called "burn rate" are not wrong, they are just not enough. QL and GRT certainly come close enough to give a user a good candidate recipe and safe start, along with a pretty decent prediction.

Parametric models are rarely perfect for all examples, but they certainly can come more than close enough to proceed with things like Wildcats where there is no available lab data or published load manual.

When your rig likes Varget, H4350, N140, or N150... life is good. Take it and run.
 
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