SilencerCo just issued a bunch of recalls, check their site, hope none of yours are on there.I've got a bunch of old Sandmans, and have had zero issue with them... but like others, I wouldn't buy any new ones... I just got a few Silencercos that I'll be trying soon and I hope they're decent.
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Suppressors Dead Air Suppressor Quality
- Thread starter Arc Light
- Start date
Seems like the only people NOT having any issues are the small-batch precision can guys... Like TBAC, OCL, DD, etc...
I seriously recommend CGS cans. I have 3 and all are exceeding my expectations. To my knowledge they don't have any recalls, I could be wrong, but regardless they are my favorite. Also my OCM5 is running like a top on my Centurion MK 12, very specific application of course but a good reco for them as well nonetheless.
I've actually worked in contact manufacturing (not my specialty - I much preferred original design work). Most companies are pretty good at giving you exactly what you ask for, and probably won't go much beyond because this type of work typically carries very low margin.
Furthermore, the "quality" (a word I've come to hate) of a finished good is driven basically by its design and the ability of the manufacturing process to consistently perform the numerous steps. "Quality" is not something that's inspected into the product at the very end. We've got a bunch of people in the industry (and a lot of very vocal and frequently wrong members in this forum) who are under the impression that quality comes from some dude in bifocals using a set of calipers to confirm that a few physical dimensions remain "in spec" before a part leaves the plant. Sometimes they might throw in a comment about "tolerance stacking", which is certainly a thing but should rarely if ever be a problem with a properly designed and manufactured system.
The bottom line is that while there is likely plenty of blame to go around (including a bit on the users), it's Dead Air's name on the product and they need to take 100% ownership of design and workmanship issues. If you as the representative of the customer-facing entity have to utter the name of a supplier in an effort to defer blame, you've screwed up.
Both my Nomad and Nomad Ti say Dead Air on the side of the can, you'd have to look on the F4s to see BPI and KGM.
KGM is a sophisticated contractor, if this was just a handful of defects they would have repaired them and got them back out the door. There's been defects from KGM before and the repair times were quick. It is most likely KGM delivered exactly what DA asked for.
DA- “Yeah, hello? I’d like to order a shit ton of defective suppressors.”
KGM- “We can do that.”
I think we can all agree Dead Air will likely be out of business inside of three years. The market is saturated will good options and innovation happening every day. Dead Air was already falling behind before this recent disaster. I just feel foolish for owning their products with support being nonexistent.
Nah, they want guys like me to disclose. I didn’t wade into the Sierra5 fiasco, and have nothing but good experiences with my 2 DA cans.
I’ll have to look at them when I get home, but I’m pretty sure they say KGMade right on the can. I’ll edit this in a few hours with the results…
Edit- Definitely says Dead Air. It’s funny what your brain can concoct for you. I have the distinct (though fictional) recollection of KGMade being etched on the can.
Regardless, there’s still enough blame for both “manufacturers.”
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The sub is on the Form 4, the cans say Dead Air, but if you don’t have your F4 handy, the way to tell who made them, is the location of origin stamped on the can. For example, a KGM-built can will say:
Dead Air Silencers
Norcross, GA
(serial number)
Dead Air Silencers
Norcross, GA
(serial number)
Welcome to the world of "marking variances", or as the ATF puts it, "Alternative Means of Identification of Firearms".
Preach it brother, as a long suffering quality engineer, this is what makes my life hell.
me: “I really suggest you redo the setup for this part, the FAI is going to fail”
Production supervisor: “ain’t nobody got time fo dat” later: “what do you mean it failed”
From recollection, years back when DA was switching from Bergarra to KGM, DA was called out for not really having control over their production. Mageever described how DA designed/called out every manufacturing and QC process. I think it was on this forum if someone feels like digging.
Huxwrx is, I'm assuming, a larger manufacturer due to government contracts and what not...I've not heard of any issues with them. Saw one guy who was using steel penetrator 5.56 and the bullet came apart before leaving his new Flow 556. Huxwrx stepped up and fixed it even though it wasn't an issue with their product. Solid company.
I guess I’ll probably not get another DA can with all this going on. I do have a Sandman S and a Wolverine which I’ve not had a problem with, but with so many good manufacturers out there, I don’t feel comfortable spending that kind of cash and waiting so long for something that may not be good quality, or lack customer service in the event that a problem arises.
Just got notified I'll have my Sierra 5 back by the end of the week. Was quite shocked to say the least and I was about to pull the trigger on another 5.56 can figuring I wouldn't see the DA can any time soon. I guess they have whatever situation led to all of this solved and are actively fixing cans. They called to double check what accessories I had shipped with the suppressor and handled everything in a professional manner. Seemed like they were being very thorough which, at this point, they should be. They are shipping them back overnight as well. Hopefully this is the last time I'll need to repair the Sierra and hopefully DA's getting things back on track. Definitely a learning moment for them as a company. Will look forward to comparing it to my other suppressors.
This is good to hear! I hope they have gotten everything situated as well. That is a good sign that they are going down the right path again, that they're overnighting cans, being active, and contacting customers. I hope this means things will be back up and running and business as usual with DA, and that their rep, while slightly tarnished by some issues (my guess is the litigation was the holdup, knowing what we know now), gets iron back out. Like you said, I hope this is a learning experience for them, and they will not have to deal with KGM ever again.
I was tempted to ask a lot of questions but in the end, resisted and just took the win. I figure they've been getting enough of a hard time and anything I had to add was simply beating a dead horse.
My Sierra 5 is back in hand. The rear baffle looks slightly different from the old, likely a tweaked design. Looks brand new and the weld on the rear baffle is clean. I couldn't get the Xeno mount adapter off as I think they use thread locker on it. Weighed in at 13.8 ounces with the Xeno, which is a bit heavier than I remembered it being. With the muzzle device, it's over 16oz so she's short and chunky. It'll be a bit before I can test it against the Flow 762 as Huxwrx still hasn't released their HUB mount yet.
And I spoke too soon. My initial purchase was the Sierra 5, Xeno adapter and two 223 Xeno muzzle devices, one in 1/2x28 and one in 5/8x24. The larger one is for a custom X-Caliber barrel I had made and decided to go with the larger threading.
I mounted up the 1/2x28 yesterday and checked for alignment. It isn't spot-on perfect but it's shootable. Today I installed the 5/8x24 flash hider on the X-Caliber and sure enough, it was off. Enough that I can't shoot it. When I first tried to install it, I got maybe a thread or two in and it just stopped. Yes, I cleaned the threads prior. I pulled it off and tried two other muzzle devices, one from Sig and one from Huxwrx. Both glided right on, no resistance.
I checked the muzzle device and it was labeled 5/8x24. Tried again and was able to get it on with a bit more muscle (not overly so) and screw it all the way on. Definitely not like butter. I tightened it down, installed the Sierra 5 and then slid the alignment rod down. It's clearly skewed to one side by a good bit. The rod isn't touching the flash hider prong on the end cap but it's damn close.
I pulled the muzzle device off and the first two threads are no longer black, they're now silver. I've already sent an email into Dead Air to see if they'll exchange it.
For shits and giggles, I re-installed the Huxwrx muzzle device and checked alignment. It's spot-on dead center with the suppressor. Two of them in fact. I own probably $1K in Hux muzzle devices only and none of them have ever exhibited alignment errors.
Here are a few pics, old and new baffles. I couldn't get the Xeno adapter off to gain the same perspective.
OLD
NEW below
I mounted up the 1/2x28 yesterday and checked for alignment. It isn't spot-on perfect but it's shootable. Today I installed the 5/8x24 flash hider on the X-Caliber and sure enough, it was off. Enough that I can't shoot it. When I first tried to install it, I got maybe a thread or two in and it just stopped. Yes, I cleaned the threads prior. I pulled it off and tried two other muzzle devices, one from Sig and one from Huxwrx. Both glided right on, no resistance.
I checked the muzzle device and it was labeled 5/8x24. Tried again and was able to get it on with a bit more muscle (not overly so) and screw it all the way on. Definitely not like butter. I tightened it down, installed the Sierra 5 and then slid the alignment rod down. It's clearly skewed to one side by a good bit. The rod isn't touching the flash hider prong on the end cap but it's damn close.
I pulled the muzzle device off and the first two threads are no longer black, they're now silver. I've already sent an email into Dead Air to see if they'll exchange it.
For shits and giggles, I re-installed the Huxwrx muzzle device and checked alignment. It's spot-on dead center with the suppressor. Two of them in fact. I own probably $1K in Hux muzzle devices only and none of them have ever exhibited alignment errors.
Here are a few pics, old and new baffles. I couldn't get the Xeno adapter off to gain the same perspective.
OLD
NEW below
Closeup photo of the threading on the Dead Air muzzle device. Looks like the coating possibly gunked things up, not sure.
Looks like DA revised the baffles. So much for the white knights claiming KGM was at fault.
That was my point. The lengthy wait was probably due to DA redesigning the baffles.
Users on Reddit are reporting failed baffles at 3k rounds.
The mental gymnastics and KGM cucking are hilarious... So, it's not at all possible that KGM could ever be at fault for any of this? 0%? Couldn't have been their fuckups on the welds that caused them to crack? Or their lack of QA/QC? Or, their lack of give a fuck (or experience) by their employees that caused and Overheated/over-penetrated the baffles while welding them causing stress fractures?
I'm not saying that's what happened, but it could have been... Nobody knows anything except the people directly involved at the top level, but you're already putting all the blame on one party, when you don't know for a fact. I'm saying everyone was at fault from an overall perspective... KGM should have done better QA/QC for their production, before DA did the final QA/QC, and Dead Air should have done a better job of final QA/QC before shipping. Who is at fault for the defective Stellite baffle alloy? Well... I'd be looking at the foundry. So, I'm sure there's MUCH more to this than just "KGM is innocent, Dead Air sucks..." See how retarded that sounds?
And you don't think maybe it's possible they just decided to go with a better baffle design they had possibly been working on this whole time, while they were repairing cans? They DO have an engineering department that is constantly engineering things... So, nobody has ever redesigned a better baffle stack without there being an issue? I think TBAC would beg to differ on that one... Gen 1 Ultra vs. Gen 2 Ultra baffle stacks... There was no issue the the Gen 1, but they designed a better baffle stack, so they offered upgrades for customers...
If that happens, then I'd say that's definitely a problem at the manufacturing plant...
The mental gymnastics and KGM cucking are hilarious... So, it's not at all possible that KGM could ever be at fault for any of this? 0%? Couldn't have been their fuckups on the welds that caused them to crack? Or their lack of QA/QC? Or, their lack of give a fuck (or experience) by their employees that caused and Overheated/over-penetrated the baffles while welding them causing stress fractures?
I'm not saying that's what happened, but it could have been... Nobody knows anything except the people directly involved at the top level, but you're already putting all the blame on one party, when you don't know for a fact. I'm saying everyone was at fault from an overall perspective... KGM should have done better QA/QC for their production, before DA did the final QA/QC, and Dead Air should have done a better job of final QA/QC before shipping. Who is at fault for the defective Stellite baffle alloy? Well... I'd be looking at the foundry. So, I'm sure there's MUCH more to this than just "KGM is innocent, Dead Air sucks..." See how retarded that sounds?
And you don't think maybe it's possible they just decided to go with a better baffle design they had possibly been working on this whole time, while they were repairing cans? They DO have an engineering department that is constantly engineering things... So, nobody has ever redesigned a better baffle stack without there being an issue? I think TBAC would beg to differ on that one... Gen 1 Ultra vs. Gen 2 Ultra baffle stacks... There was no issue the the Gen 1, but they designed a better baffle stack, so they offered upgrades for customers...
Right on queue.
Children! Let the adults talk.
All kidding aside, put about 70 rounds through mine today, no issues. Know it means nothing long-term but at least it's a step in the right direction. I did check out the rear baffle and it seemed just fine. No rattles. I know some YT people have done multi-mag dumps with no I didn't get to test it against the Flow 762 as I didn't want to swap muzzle devices back and forth. The report was pleasant enough, sounded pretty decent to me honestly even though it doesn't seem to "test" well.
All kidding aside, put about 70 rounds through mine today, no issues. Know it means nothing long-term but at least it's a step in the right direction. I did check out the rear baffle and it seemed just fine. No rattles. I know some YT people have done multi-mag dumps with no I didn't get to test it against the Flow 762 as I didn't want to swap muzzle devices back and forth. The report was pleasant enough, sounded pretty decent to me honestly even though it doesn't seem to "test" well.
The mental gymnastics and KGM cucking are hilarious... So, it's not at all possible that KGM could ever be at fault for any of this? 0%? Couldn't have been their fuckups on the welds that caused them to crack? Or their lack of QA/QC? Or, their lack of give a fuck (or experience) by their employees that caused and Overheated/over-penetrated the baffles while welding them causing stress fractures?
I'm not saying that's what happened, but it could have been... Nobody knows anything except the people directly involved at the top level, but you're already putting all the blame on one party, when you don't know for a fact. I'm saying everyone was at fault from an overall perspective... KGM should have done better QA/QC for their production, before DA did the final QA/QC, and Dead Air should have done a better job of final QA/QC before shipping. Who is at fault for the defective Stellite baffle alloy? Well... I'd be looking at the foundry. So, I'm sure there's MUCH more to this than just "KGM is innocent, Dead Air sucks..." See how retarded that sounds?
And you don't think maybe it's possible they just decided to go with a better baffle design they had possibly been working on this whole time, while they were repairing cans? They DO have an engineering department that is constantly engineering things... So, nobody has ever redesigned a better baffle stack without there being an issue? I think TBAC would beg to differ on that one... Gen 1 Ultra vs. Gen 2 Ultra baffle stacks... There was no issue the the Gen 1, but they designed a better baffle stack, so they offered upgrades for customers...
The majority of the culpability is with DA.
It's their suppressor. It's their design. It's their responsibility to choose the manufacturer (or better yet, manufacture in house). It's their responsibility for QA/QC. It's their responsibility for customer service. It's their product.
Even if the defect is due to KGM manufacturing, DA could've mitigated this in so many ways. Ultimately, it's their product and responsibility. And DA dropped the ball. Big time.
I completely understand, but to say that it's ALL Dead Air's fault, and nothing to do with the company that actually built the defective cans is a limp dick excuse to cuck for a company. Especially one that had their contract terminated from renewal right before that all happened... I'm just saying that a whole lot of things are up in the air right now (as far as WE all know), and suspect, but to say blame it entirely on any one entity is stupid.
And yes, I do agree 100% that DA should be doing things in-house, with close eyes on QA/QC during every step of the process, if they want to avoid having this type of shit happen in the future. I hope everyone's can gets fixed, and holds-up just fine. But my faith in KGM went to shit after my experience. I was actually going to buy an R30XL after I heard they stopped the civi sales, but after how they handled my Mask HD claim, I said fuck it, and ordered the Magnus-HUB. And I'm very happy I went with the TBAC.
KGM never stopped making the S5 and DA has been delivering them to distributors and dealers non stop this entire time.
Maybe they had that portion of the contract left to fulfill post-severance? Kind of like how we will always have to send our KGM built cans back to KGM (as long as they're in business) even though DA is not going to use them going forward with new production? I don't know, just guessing as that does happen sometimes.
Has DA ever said they aren't using KGM going forward? It seems like you're just making stuff up.
Nope, not making anything up. Was told that was going to happen a long time ago by an extremely reputable source, but whether or not that actually happened, or has happened yet, I have not heard.
I'm sure that this is all a good sign that they are going down the right path again, and that things will be back up and running and business as usual, and that their rep will only be slightly more tarnished.
Hopefully by the time this whole ordeal is finished, the entire Internet will have been informed that the real way to deliver a quality product is to do more "QA/QC" inspection. Looking at stuff harder is definitely the path to success.
Latest with my Sierra 5, had to send it back to DA as the rear mount (Xeno) would not come off, even with an impact gun and copious amounts of heat. My strap wrench marred the finish but didn't really care and I literally bent the shit out of the included wrenches trying to get it off.
Sent it back the end of February and received it today. They actually refinished the can, looks brand new, but threw a Keymo mount on the end, LOL. They also put a new flash hider cap on the front and included the old one for some reason. I hadn't tried, nor intended, to remove and replace the front cap even though I did order a cap wrench just to have. Luckily the rear mount came right off this time and I swapped in my Huxwrx QD HUB mount. Wasn't 100% sure it'd work but it's perfect. It's a few grams heavier than the DA Keymo mount but it's more important I can keep my muzzle devices consistent. Wrenches didn't get replaced, I still have a wavy-ass set of wrenches but it is what it is.
Let's hope this is the last time I have to deal with issues.
Sent it back the end of February and received it today. They actually refinished the can, looks brand new, but threw a Keymo mount on the end, LOL. They also put a new flash hider cap on the front and included the old one for some reason. I hadn't tried, nor intended, to remove and replace the front cap even though I did order a cap wrench just to have. Luckily the rear mount came right off this time and I swapped in my Huxwrx QD HUB mount. Wasn't 100% sure it'd work but it's perfect. It's a few grams heavier than the DA Keymo mount but it's more important I can keep my muzzle devices consistent. Wrenches didn't get replaced, I still have a wavy-ass set of wrenches but it is what it is.
Let's hope this is the last time I have to deal with issues.
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Well... They sent you a free $250 KeyMo and a $100 end cap, so I'd say that was nice of them...
At least you had a much better KGM experience than I did with my Mask HD... They didn't even clean the baffles (which was listed on the RMA as a "to-do") and stuck the dirty leaded-up stack back in the can, and then resprayed the finish over a non-blasted tube...
It works, it looks alright from 5 feet away. So, no real complaints, just thought it was lazy of them.Well... They sent you a free $250 KeyMo and a $100 end cap, so I'd say that was nice of them...
At least you had a much better KGM experience than I did with my Mask HD... They didn't even clean the baffles (which was listed on the RMA as a "to-do") and stuck the dirty leaded-up stack back in the can, and then resprayed the finish over a non-blasted tube...
They left all three of my Ti’s full of blast media, found it after the first couple shots when I set my rifle in the rack and completely coated the inside of my barrel and action. Had to tear it completely apart including removing the barrel and trigger to get all of it out.
I spent hours and multiple cleanings trying to get it removed from the cans and still kept getting some in the action for a while after shots knocked more loose. Took several range trips and cleanings to finally stop getting the media in my actions.
As I’ve said before Fuck KGM.
Ouch. I didn't check mine for media but maybe I should. I did use my can prior to sending it back so it was "dirty" going in and clean coming back. Their spray job was decent, can looked brand new.
