The range I shoot at goes to 1200 yards with rumors that we will have 1 mile soon. Currently I only have a .223/5.56 rifle. My question is do I take the cheap route and get a Grendel upper and utilize my existing lower or do I go all out and get a full Creedmoor rifle? Is a mile out of reach for both and should I be looking at something else entirely? I kind of have a fascination with semi auto precision rifles.
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Decision 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter bj1126
- Start date
Absolutely get the Creedmoor for >500 Yard shooting! No comparison between it and the Grendel ballistically. Some guys have shot Creedmoor with a 50% probability of hit out to 1400 yards or so. For mile shooting (outside of the realm of novelty), you should consider 300WM or 338LM. Many other calibers out there, but those are quite common choices. An AXMC in 338 would be kinda awesome, though it's not semi-auto
Good luck!
If you want to utilize your existing ar15 platform, go 6mm fat rat or 6mm ar turbo improved (basically the same cartridge). They blow away the grendel performance wise.
The 6.5 creedmoor has a slight advantage over the 6 fat rat but not by much. Neither are really 1 mile guns, but the 6.5 creedmoor might get there with a really long tube and the new 140 hybrids.
The 6.5 creedmoor has a slight advantage over the 6 fat rat but not by much. Neither are really 1 mile guns, but the 6.5 creedmoor might get there with a really long tube and the new 140 hybrids.
you might want to take a look at the 5.68dmr. It shoots 90gr .224 bullets at 2900fps with a 24" barrel. That would be a good option for the 1200 yard range. It would still be supersonic at that range.
Absolutely get the Creedmoor for >500 Yard shooting! No comparison between it and the Grendel ballistically. Some guys have shot Creedmoor with a 50% probability of hit out to 1400 yards or so. For mile shooting (outside of the realm of novelty), you should consider 300WM or 338LM. Many other calibers out there, but those are quite common choices. An AXMC in 338 would be kinda awesome, though it's not semi-auto
SMH >500 yards, 300WM????
The Grendel will holds its own out to 800 yards easy and save you quite a bit of weight. If you're only doing the occasional shooting out from 800-1200 yards I'd say get a Grendel 20". It'll reach just fine, but your skills will be pushed. If you'll be doing significant shooting out to those ranges get the Creedmore. Hell why not just get both.
As you can tell I'm a Grendel guy. I had all intentions of building a Creedmore after my Grendel. However, since the 6.5 SAUM has jumped onto the scene my thoughts have changed. Eventually I'll build a 6.5 SAUM, it'll be a bolt gun though.
As far as a mile goes you'll want to go bigger. Like the .338 LM or NM. Personally I'd go the NM route. FYI the civillian 300 WM and the Military 300 WM are not one in the same. The Military 300 WM loads are pushing ridiculous pressures well into the 70k+.
I've got a buddy who shoots a 6.5 creed out of a 24" tube out to 1500 regularly. Now that's just banging steel, not shooting groups but it makes it out there and you can hear it hit steel so it still has some authority.
6.5grendel is in no way similar to 6.5creed except they can sling the same bullets.
6.5grendel is in no way similar to 6.5creed except they can sling the same bullets.
I'm a Grendel guy too. Love it! Especially the performance you get out of such a small round. You will be fine or to 100 yards with it, especially if you like a semi auto.
If you want a mile shooter get the .338 Norma Magnum AI, that will reach out there. But overall get the Grendel. You can hunt with it and make a very light AR for it. My 24" will group 1/2" at 300 almost every time. Plus is cheaper to shoot and reload
If you want a mile shooter get the .338 Norma Magnum AI, that will reach out there. But overall get the Grendel. You can hunt with it and make a very light AR for it. My 24" will group 1/2" at 300 almost every time. Plus is cheaper to shoot and reload
The overall economy of the Grendel is what is drawing me to it.
I'd like to go to a mile but the more I investigate the more I think that's a few years down the road. A Grendel upper is an easy buy relatively soon.
So now the question is who makes the best Grendel uppers?
I'd like to go to a mile but the more I investigate the more I think that's a few years down the road. A Grendel upper is an easy buy relatively soon.
So now the question is who makes the best Grendel uppers?
.260 if your a hand loader will do 1200+. If not then creed will do. For me a 1 mile gun would be along the lines of a 300 Norma mag, but few ARs could hold it. At this point get a bolt gun...
You got to have it together to shoot 1200+. Ammo must be consistant. For me it was a big difference in 1K with my .260. And I was getting SDs of 4fps in my bolt gun hammering a 10" plate. It isn't always easy by any means. The wind really comes out of the wood work on it. I'm all about the 6.5mm and 7mm chamberings.
You got to have it together to shoot 1200+. Ammo must be consistant. For me it was a big difference in 1K with my .260. And I was getting SDs of 4fps in my bolt gun hammering a 10" plate. It isn't always easy by any means. The wind really comes out of the wood work on it. I'm all about the 6.5mm and 7mm chamberings.
I maybe should have put this out there, I'm not a hunter. I'm just into hitting steel or punching paper. I'm not against hunting by any means but it's just not my cup of tea.
From what I'm reading the Grendel will get me to 1k and maybe to 1200 if I really push it but it's a close call. I think I'll go that route and be happy with that until I can build the big bolt gun that will get me to a mile.
The other factor in this is that I'm not yet a hand loader. Part of getting this project off the ground is building the reloading shed in the back yard and getting the equipment. That's going to eat up a lot of my play money which is why I'm wanting to keep the budget tight on the rifle. A $1600 JP upper isn't unreasonable compared to a $3-5k+ fresh build.
After I get comfortable reloading I'll look into building the 1 mile rifle. The more research I do the more I am realizing to get there I am going to have to build a big rifle. Living in Florida typically sitting in 30 inHg air pressure means some of the stuff guys send out to a mile while in the western deserts isn't going to make it here. Maybe I can build a .375 without the wife leaving me? LOL we'll see.
From what I'm reading the Grendel will get me to 1k and maybe to 1200 if I really push it but it's a close call. I think I'll go that route and be happy with that until I can build the big bolt gun that will get me to a mile.
The other factor in this is that I'm not yet a hand loader. Part of getting this project off the ground is building the reloading shed in the back yard and getting the equipment. That's going to eat up a lot of my play money which is why I'm wanting to keep the budget tight on the rifle. A $1600 JP upper isn't unreasonable compared to a $3-5k+ fresh build.
After I get comfortable reloading I'll look into building the 1 mile rifle. The more research I do the more I am realizing to get there I am going to have to build a big rifle. Living in Florida typically sitting in 30 inHg air pressure means some of the stuff guys send out to a mile while in the western deserts isn't going to make it here. Maybe I can build a .375 without the wife leaving me? LOL we'll see.
Good luck. I think you will be disappointed. The case capacity isnt enough to load the heavy 136-142g bullets(and still get enough speed) where the 6.5 shines at long distance with the ultra high BC's. So you are limited to like 107's, 123, etc... and you are still limited at that. If you dont care about mag length and dont mind single feeding then you can crank it, but if you arent setup to reload, again, I think you will be dissapointed.
If you said "I would be happy with a solid 600-800 yard round" I would say rock on.
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Precision Firearms hands down. Especially if you're looking to push the cartridges limits at the range.
Factory 123gr Amax out of my Precision Firearms 24" Grendel is Sonic to 1200 yards in North AL conditions, which is very close to Florida humidity. As we all know you can go beyond the sonic transition if you have the ability.
I just edited my post to remove what you quoted because as I re-read it this morning it didnt make sense anymore. I swear last night what I typed made sense, but at 2am, who knows what I was thinking.
Comparing 6.5c to 6.5g using the same bullet, I still dont see how you can sling them down range to the same distances with 25% less powder capacity. If guys are saying "the 6.5c is NOT a 1 mile gun" while at the same time saying "you can send a 6.5 gren out to 1200" well 25% more powder should(in theory, but it doesnt usually work that way) be able to send a bullet 25% further makes the 6.5C into a 1500 yard gun which is 200 short of a mile. My buddy has shot and made hits with his 6.5C out to a mile.
I personally would never try to send a 6.5 grendel out to 1000 yards. There are guys that shoot .223 out to 800-1000 yards too, but doesnt mean its the right round for the job.
I'd use the Creedmoor for 1k yards, start talking several more hundred yards than that and stepping up to mag caliber would be best. 300WM with handloads or one of the big .338 choices.
You would really be pushing the .264LBC/G that far out, would give you some good bullet drop and wind training though.
You would really be pushing the .264LBC/G that far out, would give you some good bullet drop and wind training though.
Last time we were at Butner I watched the trace of a .223 to 1K yards, insane. Looked like it went into orbit, lol.
For one the Grendel is extremely efficient, which is one of it's pros.
I've never shot to a mile, but what you're saying does theoretically make sense.
Pushing the Grendel to 1000 yards isn't comparable to trying it with a .223. It's more on the lines of a .223 to 650-700, with conditions being the same. I agree 1200 is really pushing it.
Some people, like myself, live for pushing our own personal limits. The Grendel at 1200+ is doing just that. For a lot of us shooting anything to 1000 is pushing our limits, no matter the cartridge.
If you just want to enjoy the sound of brass on steel from 1000 yards away then the creedmore is the obvious choice. If you want to push yourself, and 1000 yards is the furthest range you have then the Grendel is the way to go.
I've got the same issues with liking semi-autos... I'm right handed but left eye dominate and almost blind in my right eye so I shoot long guns left handed but don't like left handed or right handed bolt guns. Semi-autos I'm fine with. So I talked myself into a 6mm Fat Rat upper for my Seekins/PRS lower. Put a Bushnell 4.5x30 ERS on it. This was a top end 6mm Fat Rat upper with a 24" Kreiger barrel, extended gas system beyond the rifle length, 1.25" under the hand guard, 0.936 adjustable gas block and 0.80 beyond the gas block threaded and SAS brake and suppressor.
I got all Lapua 6.5 Grendel brass for fire forming and Berger 105gr Hybrids with R15 as the powder. Worked up a fire forming load that shot sub 1/2" 5 round groups at 100 yards with a SD of something like 7 FPS at 2800 FPS average. This was a smoking setup and hands down the most accurate semi auto I've ever shot. I was doing those 5 rounds groups with the preformed brass. With the fire forming loads it would the 1/2 MOA out to 1040 yards in vertical spread. This required 8.3 mils of dial up to get to 1040 yards which is the longest I ever shot it. 10 mph wind drift was 1.8 mils at the same distance. Run those numbers against anything you can do with a 6.5 Grendel before you make your decision.
It's an amazing round... BUT... It's really expensive for what it is. Especially when using all top notch components. I mean really I could get a Savage 12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor for WAY less than I had into this, put factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo into it from Hornady for LESS than I paid for reloading components and get the same results. I ran the Fat Rat side by side on the same day to 1040 yards against my buddy's Savage 12 LRP and got pretty much the same results in hits on target at that distance. I even posted the trued DOPE charts from that day in the thread I did about the Fat Rat. You can make a semi auto run against a really good factory bolt gun but in the end it was a lot of time/effort/money to make it happen so you better have lots of time and money and desire to make the effort. Otherwise buy a bolt gun and get it done easier.
If you want to read about it here's the link to my post.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ild-6-5-grendel-wildcat-fans-6mm-fat-rat.html
I ended up selling the Fat Rat as a complete unit and have now developed a 1/4 MOA round with Berger 77gr OTM Tacticals out of my 20" AR that I'm going to be using for team matches. In the end the AR15 really is best suited for .223/5.56 in my opinion unless you really like to play with extreme stuff. If you want something better than .223, it's just so much easer to just step up to an AR10 or a SA Bolt gun and get it done.
There's my 13 cents... That's all I've got. I would just say no to a Grendel, but that's just me.
I got all Lapua 6.5 Grendel brass for fire forming and Berger 105gr Hybrids with R15 as the powder. Worked up a fire forming load that shot sub 1/2" 5 round groups at 100 yards with a SD of something like 7 FPS at 2800 FPS average. This was a smoking setup and hands down the most accurate semi auto I've ever shot. I was doing those 5 rounds groups with the preformed brass. With the fire forming loads it would the 1/2 MOA out to 1040 yards in vertical spread. This required 8.3 mils of dial up to get to 1040 yards which is the longest I ever shot it. 10 mph wind drift was 1.8 mils at the same distance. Run those numbers against anything you can do with a 6.5 Grendel before you make your decision.
It's an amazing round... BUT... It's really expensive for what it is. Especially when using all top notch components. I mean really I could get a Savage 12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor for WAY less than I had into this, put factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo into it from Hornady for LESS than I paid for reloading components and get the same results. I ran the Fat Rat side by side on the same day to 1040 yards against my buddy's Savage 12 LRP and got pretty much the same results in hits on target at that distance. I even posted the trued DOPE charts from that day in the thread I did about the Fat Rat. You can make a semi auto run against a really good factory bolt gun but in the end it was a lot of time/effort/money to make it happen so you better have lots of time and money and desire to make the effort. Otherwise buy a bolt gun and get it done easier.
If you want to read about it here's the link to my post.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ild-6-5-grendel-wildcat-fans-6mm-fat-rat.html
I ended up selling the Fat Rat as a complete unit and have now developed a 1/4 MOA round with Berger 77gr OTM Tacticals out of my 20" AR that I'm going to be using for team matches. In the end the AR15 really is best suited for .223/5.56 in my opinion unless you really like to play with extreme stuff. If you want something better than .223, it's just so much easer to just step up to an AR10 or a SA Bolt gun and get it done.
There's my 13 cents... That's all I've got. I would just say no to a Grendel, but that's just me.
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Here's the direct link to the post where I show the 6mm Fat Rat vs 6.5 CM results. You won't get anywhere near this with a 6.5 Grendel because it because a case capacity vs bullet weight issue. Plus in the 123gr 6.5 Grendel Amax vs 105gr 6mm Hybrid fight the Berger is the clear winner with the G1 of 0.547 vs the Amax 0.510 and the 6mm out of Fat Rat is gonna be moving several hundred FPS faster.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...l-wildcat-fans-6mm-fat-rat-2.html#post2688077
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...l-wildcat-fans-6mm-fat-rat-2.html#post2688077
That is something to think about. I could get a relatively cheap factory bolt gun that is just as accurate for probably about the same price. Thanks for throwing cold water on my dreams!
The grendel shoots a 123 grain at what 2600 fps. In the Creedmoor factory ammo it's what 2900? (Hornady v hornady) To me the Creedmoor can go 200 yards further than the grendel because the Creedmoor after 200 yards is at same velocity as grendel at the muzzle. Maybe 250 yards at extreme range using the .6 bc 140s vs the .5 be 123gr. So be wary of some who say grendel can't go past 800 but Creedmoor can go to 1600.... If I were the op I would also consider a 243. Whatever you decide if you are planning on long range make sure you get a higher quality premium barrel, if u don't u will have trouble getting groups at distance. If u go grendel check there forum for what barrel to get. If u don't reload I would think about 260 because it has more industry following than 6.5 g or c.
Also get as long a barrel as possible. And if u go the Jp rifles grendel route you could save money by just buying the barrel from them and putting the upper together yourself. It's not very hard there's plenty of info out there, you will learn some things and save a lot a money. I went that route with a 223 and grendel upper . Premium barrel my labor and parts , cut the cost in half....
You need to consider if you want a round that can be used out if a standard AR or a AR 10? Or a bolt gun... then decide what round to get. They both have their place but for a normal AR, it's tough to beat the Grendel with is almost nonexistent recoil
I shoot my 16" Grendel at much farther distances than I ever would have, had I not been challenged to shoot it out to 1200yds last summer. I do live out West at much higher altitude than Florida, so that helps, but the fact that I have a little carbine says a lot for the potential of a 20" gun at sea level in Florida's thick air. This past weekend, I was spotting for an invitational precision rifle match, and shot my 16" Grendel to 1500yds with factory 123gr SST afterwards, but I ran out of elevation and reticle, since I don't have an MOA cant base on it. However, my impacts were very predictable. It would simply be a matter of using a 20-30 MOA cant, plus a scope with enough elevation to get it done.
I also have a .260 Rem AR10 with a 22" barrel. Compared to my 16" Grendel, I gain 200yds of supersonic performance with the 123gr target bullets. If I had a 22" Grendel, it would be a difference of 90-125yds. My .260 Rem upper receiver group weighs more than my scoped 16" Grendel, and cost about 3x as much.
The real value of both of these cartridges is in the projectiles and their efficiency. In all the testing I have done with the .260 gassers, the 130gr VLD's and Norma's are the balancing point in terms of BC and speed, with the 139-142gr tipping over on the slower, heavier, less flat side.
I obviously have both, but if I were forced to pick one all-round, it would be the Grendel for a number of reasons, the most important being that it actually has very affordable match ammo that's actually meant to work in an AR15/gas gun, whereas the .260 Rem is exclusively a hand-loader's affair for me.
If I wanted a rifle specifically geared to shooting 1 mile, I would normally knee jerk to the .338 LM or a 7 SAUM, but I want to experiment with some tight twist smaller calibers in the meantime and see what happens. I think Todd Hodnett is onto something with shorter bull barrels and a tight twist for ELR. Spinning the bullet unusually fast makes sense for a possible solution for passing through the transonic flight envelope, and he has been doing it with 16" bull .308's using the 175gr SMK, as well as 20" bull .338 LM TRG's.
I also have a .260 Rem AR10 with a 22" barrel. Compared to my 16" Grendel, I gain 200yds of supersonic performance with the 123gr target bullets. If I had a 22" Grendel, it would be a difference of 90-125yds. My .260 Rem upper receiver group weighs more than my scoped 16" Grendel, and cost about 3x as much.
The real value of both of these cartridges is in the projectiles and their efficiency. In all the testing I have done with the .260 gassers, the 130gr VLD's and Norma's are the balancing point in terms of BC and speed, with the 139-142gr tipping over on the slower, heavier, less flat side.
I obviously have both, but if I were forced to pick one all-round, it would be the Grendel for a number of reasons, the most important being that it actually has very affordable match ammo that's actually meant to work in an AR15/gas gun, whereas the .260 Rem is exclusively a hand-loader's affair for me.
If I wanted a rifle specifically geared to shooting 1 mile, I would normally knee jerk to the .338 LM or a 7 SAUM, but I want to experiment with some tight twist smaller calibers in the meantime and see what happens. I think Todd Hodnett is onto something with shorter bull barrels and a tight twist for ELR. Spinning the bullet unusually fast makes sense for a possible solution for passing through the transonic flight envelope, and he has been doing it with 16" bull .308's using the 175gr SMK, as well as 20" bull .338 LM TRG's.
