Suppressors denials using a quicken trust

[FullMetalJacket]

I know this go be a pretty active topic guys asking about quicken nfa trusts and have done a deal of research as this will be the way I submit my paperwork once my can reaches SOT.. what I have had a hard time tracking down is granted the attorney route is the bullet proof answer to nfa trusts some may find it hard to come up with another (600 in my case) to have a attorney right it up after shelling out the suppressor cost and tax stamp payment but what I havnt been able to find is a first or even second hand account of a rejected stamp or any other substantially Important fi.ding that a person had problems with paperwork because he used quicken trust..I get that with quicken its possible to short side yourself of become victim to improper trusting but know of 4 stamps that have been accepted and obtained.using quicken

I've never read or heard of a quicken trust not being granted except for Texas attorney just trying to pull in business or intimidate with horror stories of guys having to surrender their nfa item because of a sloppy trust

I'm not discrediting but would like to find out from you guys on the forum who may have dealt or answered this question in past.. just wanna get all my ducks in a row so theirs not a part of the process that's is delayed because I wasn't prepared

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I have yet to see or hear of a verifiable Quicken Trust denial.

I too have heard the fear-mongering from NFA Lawyers and when challenged they aren't able to show a single case where a Quicken trust was denied.

I have even spoken with the ATF about this in the past and they have said that when a Trust is denied they research and try to fix the problem. They don't recall a single denied trust being made by the Quicken software, the denials are by lawyers who add stuff in that doesn't/shouldn't belong.

Until I see actual proof I believe it is nothing more than propaganda from the NFA lawyers.

.02

 

[corey4]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust?

 

[JB02]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

If a cop did that, I'd still have to deal with the legal system regardless if I paid a lawyer to prepare my trust or not. And, if I have an ATF approved NFA stamp for the suppressor in my trust, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Whether or not a lawyer prepared the paperwork, if I ran into legal resistance from the police after producing ATF paperwork, I would need to fork over additional dough for a lawyer anyway; they seldom work for free.

Having a lawyer prepare everything for you is the more conservative way to cover yourself. Only you can determine how much risk you are willing to assume. Perhaps you may desire something that provides you more assurance in light of the gun control legislation that Congress will consider in the coming weeks.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust?</div></div>

How does this happen ?

The stamp is the stamp, someone else can't "deem" the Trust invalid... meanwhile you have a Stamp from the ATF. If it was illegal , you wouldn't have the stamp in the first place.

BS, this is the type of propaganda they are talking about ... a cop can't say, "sure I see the tax stamp but I don't like you used Quicken", as if he would know.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>


I haven't seen a Trust made by Quicken software that published that Quicken software made it, how would the cop know?

I haven't run into a cop that was knew enough about NFA to make the determination on whether a trust is legal or not. They look for your legal proof, that is your tax stamp. If they are digging further into it than the Federal registration you have obviously done something more to become a criminal in their eyes.

I don't know of a single "NFA Trust Lawyer" that will give you free legal help, or represent you in a court of law without charging you for the time. Lawyers are hourly, most if not all Trust doesn't come with a retainer for their services.

I don't know of a court case that EVER made it to court with questions on validty when proof is shown that the ATF approved the stamp.

As has been said to the lawyers, please post court documents or the like and show us a case where this has happened. I know I would like to read it.

What is posted above in the hypothetical is nothing more than the propaganda the lawyers preach.

 

[mike in pa]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have yet to see or hear of a verifiable Quicken Trust denial.

I too have heard the fear-mongering from NFA Lawyers and when challenged they aren't able to show a single case where a Quicken trust was denied.

I have even spoken with the ATF about this in the past and they have said that when a Trust is denied they research and try to fix the problem. They don't recall a single denied trust being made by the Quicken software, the denials are by lawyers who add stuff in that doesn't/shouldn't belong.

Until I see actual proof I believe it is nothing more than propaganda from the NFA lawyers.

.02 </div></div>

The NFA lawyers even try to do the fear mongering with LLC/Corp transfers as well.

I have seen them pull the "Oh you and your friends will go to jail if that LLC/Corp is not perfect". Really even after the ATF approved and stamped the Form?

The fact is those lawyers are using a fill in the blank template similar to what Quicken is offering and trying to charge on average of $500-800 for the same service.

 

[Radar360]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Did the cop have a reason to search the vehicle or did the driver/owner gave permission? But LL says it all with "the stamp is the stamp" and that's all the cop needs or cares to see.

And a trust is a trust. The NFA reviews and approves the stamp based on the requirements. If there is anything wrong with it the NFA is required to hold off issuing the stamp unitl corrected. This is all these guys do.

The cop has no training or gives a shit about the trust, s/he is interested in the TAX stamp.

But... WDIK

 

[WileyG]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Unless you have the NFA 'lawyer' on a retainer he (or another attorney in your state) is gonna charge you for representation either per hour or lump sum until a legal decision is judged.

 

[springer01]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>

That makes no sense whatsoever!! A stamp is a stamp mine don't say "approved, but trust made with Quicken Willmaker". They look just like every other stamp.

I have 3 going on 6 stamps with a Quicken made trust not a single problem with any of them.

 

[FullMetalJacket]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Do you own, or in process of nfa items purchase? That makes no sence if your in possession of a legally purchased / owned item with stamp with item they wouldn't confiscate over what route you've taken as far as quicken trust / attorney trust/ prints and lpd sign off..

 

[turboek]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Stop over thinking this, everything will be fine.

 

[corey4]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

i never implied that the theoretical cop in this theoretical situation knew that the stamp was on a quicken trust or a lawyer trust, so you can drop that issue.

my point, which has been stated on this site may times, and why i choose to go with a lawyer for my trust, was you have a better chance of getting better help from your gun trust lawyer because quicken will not back you up. and i never implied it wold be free either, so you can drop that issue as well.

every time i had a question, i emailed my lawyer. i wasn't confident in my dealer when they filled out their end of the paper work for my 2 cans. he called me a day after they gave me my form 4s and said, "do you still have those forms? i screwed up." i am pretty sure i was their first NFA purchase. so, after they fixed what they had to, i scanned my form 4s to my lawyer and he pointed out some things that could have been an issue. again, another dealer screw up. so, after the forms got fixed again, i re-scanned them to my lawyer, and he said they looked good. now what did this save? the time it would have taken to send paper work back and forth for errors on the forms, and some piece of mind because i have someone i can call or email for questions on current and future purchases.

is my lawyer a NFA examiner, no. he sure as hell was more knowledgeable than my dealer.

to the OP, take the advice for what it is worth to you. only you can decide.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Hey guys, have ya ever thought about the fact thay maybe, JUST MAYBE, the Quicken people actually used a lawyer, or a battery of lawyers, to generate the wording for their trust documentation.

Ever thought about that, have ya, huh, have ya ????

Think about it. A Georgia driver's license is accepted as valid in New York. A Washington driver's license is accepted as valid in Alabama.

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If</span></span> there are any differences among the wording of trusts generated in the 50 states, I would surmise that the state in which the trust may be brought into question would honor the requirements of the state in which the trust was executed.

A trust is not executed under federal guidelines, but state.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If</span></span> there are any differences among the wording of trusts generated in the 50 states, I would surmise that the state in which the trust may be brought into question would honor the requirements of the state in which the trust was executed.

A trust is not executed under federal guidelines, but state. </div></div>

If there is a difference in the states(where it was originally approved and where you live now) the trust has to be updated accordingly.

Just because a document is legal in 1 state doesn't mean any other state will or has to honor it.

That said I am not aware of any states that have different regs to deal with trusts but doesn't mean they don't, just that i am not aware of it.

 

[Helter]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just because a document is legal in 1 state doesn't mean any other state will or has to honor it.

</div></div>

It actually does mean that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Faith_and_Credit_Clause

(IANAL)

Edited to add-- I reread it, and see that you're talking about a trust being valid to execute in a different state than it was written for. My mistake, you're right about that.

 

[Stubb]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I've three stamps in my collection thanks to a Quicken trust. In fact, the NFA dealer (Bullseye in Lawrenceville, GA) through which I did my Form 4s happily draws up such trusts for customers at no charge as part of their excellent customer service.

—Andreas

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>

This is such an awful post on so many levels. Does using a Quicken trust somehow deny your right to a lawyer later? Of course not.

In the scenario you mention you simply lawyer up and get the guns back. A lawyer made trust does not prevent you from running into an ignorant cop.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1garand30064</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>

This is such an awful post on so many levels. Does using a Quicken trust somehow deny your right to a lawyer later? Of course not.

In the scenario you mention you simply lawyer up and get the guns back. A lawyer made trust does not prevent you from running into an ignorant cop. </div></div>

Nor does lawyer made trust guarantee it is any more legal than the Quicken Trust. There are some pretty ignorant lawyers out there that make "NFA Trusts".

 

[Abq-Defense]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I have done two cans with Quicken trusts. One in 2010, and one in 2012. Both went through with no problems.

 

[Pig-Pen]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1garand30064</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>

This is such an awful post on so many levels. Does using a Quicken trust somehow deny your right to a lawyer later? Of course not.

In the scenario you mention you simply lawyer up and get the guns back. A lawyer made trust does not prevent you from running into an ignorant cop. </div></div>

As an ignorant cop, I would have to agree. Be legal, don't do stupid things while carrying NFA items and you should be fine. Should be. There are a lot of cops who haven't a clue though.

 

[300zero]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Quicken works! I can get a signature. Instead I use my Quicken trust to get my NFA items approved. I have not been denied. I think you should stop reading what people put on the internet and do things for yourself.

 

[stefan73]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>

For $200 an hour on the cheap end I'm sure any lawyer would help you out. But then on what ground would LE have to take your can if you have a stamp? If ATF has approved them, you have the stamp your good. Also when did police officers become NFA lawyers checking to see who produced your trust and if it meets some crazy legal requirements?

 

[stefan73]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pig-Pen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1garand30064</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: corey4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets say you get pulled over on your way home from the range with your cans in the car. let "assume" you have your guns, ammo, etc legally packed away, locked up, etc. the cop confiscates your cans "because they are illegal". is quicken gonna help you out legally?

or is the lawyer you had set up your trust? </div></div>

This is such an awful post on so many levels. Does using a Quicken trust somehow deny your right to a lawyer later? Of course not.

In the scenario you mention you simply lawyer up and get the guns back. A lawyer made trust does not prevent you from running into an ignorant cop. </div></div>

As an ignorant cop, I would have to agree. Be legal, don't do stupid things while carrying NFA items and you should be fine. Should be. There are a lot of cops who haven't a clue though. </div></div>

There is no way your ignorant. Your on here, so you can't be that bad

 

[Ring]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

also... you do know that the police have ZERO right to look at your tax stamp right?.... being its a legal tax document, all the CAN do is call ATF and ask if SN# XXX belongs to you...

 

[bhart89]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Out of the box Quicken can't be used for trust creation in LA because LA requires two witnesses and the template in Quicken only has space for one. It's an easy fix if you know your states laws but stuff like this may be why you hear about certain States not accepting Quicken.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bhart89</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of the box Quicken can't be used for trust creation in LA because LA requires two witnesses and the template in Quicken only has space for one. It's an easy fix if you know your states laws but stuff like this may be why you hear about certain States not accepting Quicken. </div></div>

I haven't heard a single state that doesn't allow Quicken, even LA allows it.

Simply take out a ruler, make a new line and add the second witness. Easy.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Look, have you ever compared a Quicken trust to an actual NFA trust setup by a competent lawyer? Are you aware of the protections a proper trust provides? Also, considering how long it takes for ATF to do this, do you think they read the whole trust? Or just check the signature page? Do you think the ATF agent gives a fuck about you or yours, and if so, what if they are having a bad day or yours was the last to be reviewed?

It is upon YOU if your trust is wrong. ATF can and will approve a faulty trust. I read about it two years ago. ATF was denying some kind of online trust, don't know about now. (Think it could have been Legal Zoom).

How do you know if it is faulty? Well, when you are at the range and the one dickhead cop on here that thinks it is his sworn duty to fuck with the public 24/7 and he asks for papers, and say you forgot your wallet, and your toolbox with the spares isn't with you, and you are in a rental car so your third spare copy is in your car...

Then you get to go explain it to the judge. And if the feds want a piece of your ass, they can join in the fun. This is where your trust will be read from cover to cover by another person than yourself for the first time. And they won't be your friends, as the JAG lady once said.

This is why the ATF, I read, was suspending those particular trusts, they wouldn't accept them. The guy? This particular guy, if I recall right, got no jail time but did lose his 2A rights.

I have no qualms with you using Quicken, I don't give a shit if you have your 5yo son fill out a blank sheet in crayon. I do have a problem with possibly faulty info that could get someone else in trouble. In case you haven't heard, internet isn't the best place for legal advice.

Finally, consider this: if it is so goddamn easy, then why did EVERY trust lawyer turn me down until I found one with NFA experience? They said they could do a trust, but didn't know what the hell an NFA trust was or what it was engineered to do; still couldn't do it even with a fairly decent description. That was a red flag to me, should be to you. I appreciated their honesty. And if you don't believe me, call them. They will give you free advice over the phone, up to 30 minutes sometimes.

Again, I'm not saying your trust won't get you a suppressor or MG or AOW or whatever quick and easy. But it could also land your ass in prison for a long time too. There ARE people in US right here and now, in illegal possession of an item approved by ATF. Recall a trust is just a "paper person" that owns those NFA items and you are the guardian. In absence of the paper person, it is YOU that are in possession.

You could copy someone else's trust and be okay, but mine, for instance, is copyrighted, and I think the name of the document is trademarked too. I had a guy on here ask to borrow one for that reason, but referred him to the lawyer I used instead.

Or go drop the approx. $250 for a basic trust and sleep tight.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> also... you do know that the police have ZERO right to look at your tax stamp right?.... being its a legal tax document, all the CAN do is call ATF and ask if SN# XXX belongs to you... </div></div>

In many if not most states it is illegal to own NFA without an approved Federal registration. Therefore they CAN arrest you for not showing proof of ownership which is your tax stamp approved form. Your stamp is your proof of ownership and your defense against prosecution.

Ohio laws says that you can not legally possess "dangerous ordnance" without registration in the NFA. So how do you prove that it is registered in the NFA? You show them proof of registration which is our approved tax stamp. "Dangerous Ordnance" is the classification Ohio has for NFA weapons.

The NFA Branch doesn't just verify information to any cop that calls, there has to be a crime committed and they are going to ask the cop if the 'owner' has their form anyways.


Is it worth the headaches in store to try and fight providing proof?

 

[Strykervet]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If a cop did that, I'd still have to deal with the legal system regardless if I paid a lawyer to prepare my trust or not. And, if I have an ATF approved NFA stamp for the suppressor in my trust, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Whether or not a lawyer prepared the paperwork, if I ran into legal resistance from the police after producing ATF paperwork, I would need to fork over additional dough for a lawyer anyway; they seldom work for free.

Having a lawyer prepare everything for you is the more conservative way to cover yourself. Only you can determine how much risk you are willing to assume. Perhaps you may desire something that provides you more assurance in light of the gun control legislation that Congress will consider in the coming weeks.</div></div>

Dude, for $250, I don't take on much risk at all. To prevent some serious ass fucking in prison, I'll consider myself quite conservative.

NO, just because you have the tax stamp doesn't mean you are legal. ATF isn't that generous. They can approve your trust and application, but if your trust doesn't hold up in court, then it didn't hold up then, and not only were you in illegal possession, you also committed fraud to receive it.

Just get a lawyer. As one who ran through this wringer already, I figured I'd save some folks the time. But some of you are determined to save a few shekels at any cost instead. So be it.

 

[rmfield]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Strykervet is right. The fact that you successfully acquire NFA items via a trust does not mean that the trust is well written or even legal. It just means it was good enough to get past the NFA review. Your trust will never be vetted until trouble happens and someone who has an interest in prosecuting you takes a good look at it. I spent the bucks and got a gun trust tailored to me by an attorney that knows family law in my state and the NFA stuff inside and out. It kind of pissed me off that I had to spend that kind of money, but I sleep well and know that I won't be leaving my wife a can of worms (or snakes) if anything happens to me.

 

[locobob]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

[/quote]

NO, just because you have the tax stamp doesn't mean you are legal. ATF isn't that generous. They can approve your trust and application, but if your trust doesn't hold up in court, then it didn't hold up then, and not only were you in illegal possession, you also committed fraud to receive it.

[/quote]

No fraud involved here, legal fraud necessitates intent, the prosecution would have to prove intentional deception.

 

[Ring]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> also... you do know that the police have ZERO right to look at your tax stamp right?.... being its a legal tax document, all the CAN do is call ATF and ask if SN# XXX belongs to you... </div></div>

In many if not most states it is illegal to own NFA without an approved Federal registration. Therefore they CAN arrest you for not showing proof of ownership which is your tax stamp approved form. Your stamp is your proof of ownership and your defense against prosecution.

Ohio laws says that you can not legally possess "dangerous ordnance" without registration in the NFA. So how do you prove that it is registered in the NFA? You show them proof of registration which is our approved tax stamp. "Dangerous Ordnance" is the classification Ohio has for NFA weapons.

The NFA Branch doesn't just verify information to any cop that calls, there has to be a crime committed and they are going to ask the cop if the 'owner' has their form anyways.


Is it worth the headaches in store to try and fight providing proof?
</div></div>


its not my job to prove shit to them... its there job to prove i broke the law... like i said.. all they need to do is call ATF with the SN#

 

[Ring]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If a cop did that, I'd still have to deal with the legal system regardless if I paid a lawyer to prepare my trust or not. And, if I have an ATF approved NFA stamp for the suppressor in my trust, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Whether or not a lawyer prepared the paperwork, if I ran into legal resistance from the police after producing ATF paperwork, I would need to fork over additional dough for a lawyer anyway; they seldom work for free.

Having a lawyer prepare everything for you is the more conservative way to cover yourself. Only you can determine how much risk you are willing to assume. Perhaps you may desire something that provides you more assurance in light of the gun control legislation that Congress will consider in the coming weeks.</div></div>

Dude, for $250, I don't take on much risk at all. To prevent some serious ass fucking in prison, I'll consider myself quite conservative.

NO, just because you have the tax stamp doesn't mean you are legal. ATF isn't that generous. They can approve your trust and application, but if your trust doesn't hold up in court, then it didn't hold up then, and not only were you in illegal possession, you also committed fraud to receive it.

Just get a lawyer. As one who ran through this wringer already, I figured I'd save some folks the time. But some of you are determined to save a few shekels at any cost instead. So be it.

</div></div>

#1.. show me 1 case of a QWM trust owner losing his shit to ATF over a bad trust or even going to court...

#2.. show me how a 600$ trust is different then this for free?
http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
#1.. show me 1 case of a QWM trust owner losing his shit to ATF over a bad trust or even going to court...
</div></div>

+1 I have been asking that to NFA Trust lawyers for awhile and none of them can provide anything either.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Guys, consider this . . .

Do you REALLY think that Quicken would put something on the market for which they could be held legally responsible if it was defective in any way.

There is money involved. Big companies don't like to lose money. Do you SERIOUSLY think they'd just willy-nilly put some form out for public use which does not hold up to legal scrutiny?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
#1.. show me 1 case of a QWM trust owner losing his shit to ATF over a bad trust or even going to court...
</div></div>

+1 I have been asking that to NFA Trust lawyers for awhile and none of them can provide anything either. </div></div>

It's the same argument just a different days guys. We ask for even an iota of evidence to these claims, but like always the proof is in the absence of evidence.

 

[gathumper]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I don't know a cop alive that would bother with that crap. I have delt with hundreds of people carrying suppressors in their vehicles, and unless they looked like a F'n dirtbag, the stop ended there. There is no way for local LEO's to know if you are legal, or not. We cannot check shit like the FED's, so we don't bother. I may drool on your cans, but I would never take em.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locobob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]

NO, just because you have the tax stamp doesn't mean you are legal. ATF isn't that generous. They can approve your trust and application, but if your trust doesn't hold up in court, then it didn't hold up then, and not only were you in illegal possession, you also committed fraud to receive it.

</div></div>

No fraud involved here, legal fraud necessitates intent, the prosecution would have to prove intentional deception.

[/quote]

Whatever, you are still in possession of an illegal can and that is what they'll go after.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If a cop did that, I'd still have to deal with the legal system regardless if I paid a lawyer to prepare my trust or not. And, if I have an ATF approved NFA stamp for the suppressor in my trust, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Whether or not a lawyer prepared the paperwork, if I ran into legal resistance from the police after producing ATF paperwork, I would need to fork over additional dough for a lawyer anyway; they seldom work for free.

Having a lawyer prepare everything for you is the more conservative way to cover yourself. Only you can determine how much risk you are willing to assume. Perhaps you may desire something that provides you more assurance in light of the gun control legislation that Congress will consider in the coming weeks.</div></div>

Dude, for $250, I don't take on much risk at all. To prevent some serious ass fucking in prison, I'll consider myself quite conservative.

NO, just because you have the tax stamp doesn't mean you are legal. ATF isn't that generous. They can approve your trust and application, but if your trust doesn't hold up in court, then it didn't hold up then, and not only were you in illegal possession, you also committed fraud to receive it.

Just get a lawyer. As one who ran through this wringer already, I figured I'd save some folks the time. But some of you are determined to save a few shekels at any cost instead. So be it.

</div></div>

#1.. show me 1 case of a QWM trust owner losing his shit to ATF over a bad trust or even going to court...

#2.. show me how a 600$ trust is different then this for free?
http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust
</div></div>

That site certainly has a lot of good information, in particular the part where it tells you to seek a lawyer for anything but the most basic trust. And honestly, I'd get one even then.

How is it different? I wish I could show you, but like I said, my trust is copyrighted and trademarked, so it wouldn't be wise for me to post that on here. But when I say it is quite a bit different, you'll just have to take my word for it.

If you don't believe me, any NFA trust lawyer can show you the documents for free.

And sorry, I don't recall where that info was. I think it was on The High Road maybe? Long threads there about it too.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If a cop did that, I'd still have to deal with the legal system regardless if I paid a lawyer to prepare my trust or not. And, if I have an ATF approved NFA stamp for the suppressor in my trust, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Whether or not a lawyer prepared the paperwork, if I ran into legal resistance from the police after producing ATF paperwork, I would need to fork over additional dough for a lawyer anyway; they seldom work for free.

Having a lawyer prepare everything for you is the more conservative way to cover yourself. Only you can determine how much risk you are willing to assume. Perhaps you may desire something that provides you more assurance in light of the gun control legislation that Congress will consider in the coming weeks.</div></div>

Dude, for $250, I don't take on much risk at all. To prevent some serious ass fucking in prison, I'll consider myself quite conservative.

NO, just because you have the tax stamp doesn't mean you are legal. ATF isn't that generous. They can approve your trust and application, but if your trust doesn't hold up in court, then it didn't hold up then, and not only were you in illegal possession, you also committed fraud to receive it.

Just get a lawyer. As one who ran through this wringer already, I figured I'd save some folks the time. But some of you are determined to save a few shekels at any cost instead. So be it.

</div></div>

#1.. show me 1 case of a QWM trust owner losing his shit to ATF over a bad trust or even going to court...

#2.. show me how a 600$ trust is different then this for free?
http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust
</div></div>

That site certainly has a lot of good information, in particular the part where it tells you to seek a lawyer for anything but the most basic trust. And honestly, I'd get one even then.

How is it different? I wish I could show you, but like I said, my trust is copyrighted and trademarked, so it wouldn't be wise for me to post that on here. But when I say it is quite a bit different, you'll just have to take my word for it.

If you don't believe me, any NFA trust lawyer can show you the documents for free.

And sorry, I don't recall where that info was. I think it was on The High Road maybe? Long threads there about it too. </div></div>

Your trust is trademarked? Please post a picture of the trademarked portion.

There are plenty of ways to be able to show the differences without violating the copyright protection.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Look, I'm sorry I don't keep a fucking evidence file to satisfy you, I found it online years ago. I suspect you can find the same way I did. I used Google.

Again. Plain and simple. The trust you have can pass ATF, but if or when it calls into question and you go to court, THAT is when it will be vetted? Can you not understand this?

If you got a murder charge, fuck, you don't need a lawyer. It was self defense and all you have to do is fill out some forms yourself and tell the jury.

Geez...

And to get to do this all it take is what I said: leave your shit behind and get questioned by a dickbag cop about it. Ever heard, "beat the rap, can't beat the ride?" Good luck beating the rap with useless paper.

Oh, and what IF the ATF passed your SDN6, then you went to buy another can. And suppose THIS time a more experienced examiner got it and denied it. Guess what?

You are now in illegal possession of that SDN6. And they'll know that right away because they have your schedule 1 and it will be on there.

LISTEN! If your trust is shit, it is on YOU, not Quicken or Legal Zoom or the ATF or anyone else, not even the lawyer that crafted for you (though that would look a helluva lot better than saying you did it yourself in court). It is on YOU.

Finally, would you send your nice rifle to any Joe Blow on here to work on it? Didn't think so. What about just dremeling it yourself? Didn't think so either. This is no different, it really isn't.

I'm not participating in this discussion anymore. I've said all I know and can, and will only get into one of those stupid internet circle jerks if I continue.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

Strykervet... Just because an Attorney adds language to enhance or address more specific issues doesn't mean that one with less is not valid. A lot of these "NFA Attorneys" add verbiage which often serves nothing more than to add content. Now there are certain issues that a Quicken trust does not address for instance resolutions should you pass and need the can to default to a minor who can not lawfully take possession, and in those instances an Attorney should draft such language. But, there is nothing at least in the State of Washington that requires specific NFA language in order to make a trust valid for an NFA item. Hell, in this State you don't even need it to be notarized in order to be valid. In the long run though if it makes someone feel better that it was made just for them then all the better. But fact is in all these discussions on multiple boards not one single person can cite an event where someone's Quicken trust was called into question and the ATF seized the item and/or had the person imprisoned.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But fact is in all these discussions on multiple boards not one single person can cite an event where someone's Quicken trust was called into question and the ATF seized the item and/or had the person imprisoned. </div></div>

Noone can provide a cite because it has never happened.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But fact is in all these discussions on multiple boards not one single person can cite an event where someone's Quicken trust was called into question and the ATF seized the item and/or had the person imprisoned. </div></div>

Noone can provide a cite because it has never happened. </div></div>

Exactly, but I will go to bat for Strykervet in that he did the smart thing and didn't leave it to chance since he has a family to watch out for and he isn't an Attorney. Most people who use Quicken Trust's wouldn't know if it was legally acceptable or not just by reading it. Even I had an Attorney review mine just to be sure. Anytime you write up your own legal documents, whether they're fill in the blanks or not, you take a risk of not having a valid document. Especially if people are circulating around the same document for several years and not updated versions that might address changes in laws for their area.

 

[doc awesome]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I have heard of one person getting in trouble with a quicken trust because he put himself as the benefactor which makes the trust invalid. I can't source this so it might not even be true. My trust was put together using a program similar to quicken by a dealer. I have since typed up the trust to have an electronic copy if I need to make any changes and by typing it up I realized how simple a trust is.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc awesome</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard of one person getting in trouble with a quicken trust because he put himself as the benefactor which makes the trust invalid. I can't source this so it might not even be true. My trust was put together using a program similar to quicken by a dealer. I have since typed up the trust to have an electronic copy if I need to make any changes and by typing it up I realized how simple a trust is. </div></div>

Those are not the problems we are talking about, that would have prevented its approval. We are talking about about problems AFTER it has been approved.

 

[doc awesome]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I should have clarified, this was after getting approved and I they caught it on the next form he sent in and went back and made the first one invalid. This just hearsay so it might not be true.

 

[Stalking_Rhino]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc awesome</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have clarified, this was after getting approved and I they caught it on the next form he sent in and went back and made the first one invalid. This just hearsay so it might not be true. </div></div>

Would be nice to know if it is true, since the ATF has told me they have never approved a Trust and denied a follow on transaction with the same trust, usually denials come when people screw with them and add things like their dog and entities into the mix.

 

[doc awesome]

Re: denials using a quicken trust

I'd imagine that if it was true, the ATF examiner didn't catch the mistake on the trust the first time but caught it the second go around and had to go back. If it was an invalid trust when the stamp was first approved the owner would be breaking the law because the trust is invalid and can't own the can.

Either way, you have more insight into the ATF NFA process so everyone should take your word over mine. I was just posting that I've only maybe heard it happen once, and that's a big maybe.