Did some testing of a solid today... @ 1k.

[Noel Carlson]

"Would there be any use in running these through a 1:9.4 (conventional rifling) in the mid 3000... as far as gaining useful information?"...

John, yes there would! Email me information on the loading that you have in mind.

 

[jmason]

sent message to your gmail

 

[excaliber]

Noel, We talked sometime back about the heavier .338 solids. We both know that the 338 Lapua & 338 Norma is a great round but they both lack the velocity with the heavier bullets. I am in the middle of a new .338 cartridge that is bigger than the Lapua but smaller than the Cheytac case. Rim diameter & case length are same as Lapua. I believe the new solids coming out would benefit even more if pushed faster but not extreme. We need to talk sometime about testing.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Cutting edge stuff, way outside my league; but much respected. Best fortune to all in this endeavor.

Since hot loads/high pressures are the norm here, is cartridge brass the ideal material for a case design?

Greg

 

[Noel Carlson]

Greg,

Yes, we do need to talk about testing. Let's discuss details via email. Have you already purchased a barrel for your build?

"Since hot loads/high pressures are the norm here, is brass the ideal material for a case design?"...

You can always be counted on to cut to the chase; No, brass is not the ideal material.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have to assume the Greg you're talking to about testing is Kiwi Greg. I am not up to such tasks at this late date in my life.

I have been nudging the outer edge of my own little box with reloading TulAmmo Steel/Boxer .223 casings, but I've been keeping my loads on the milder side. Don't actually know how these cases' tolerance for pressure lines up with their brass counterparts'. For basic intents and purposes, the resulting cartridges perform in a surprisingly conventional and satisfying manner, but I have no idea where the limits start.

Greg

 

[Noel Carlson]

Greg,

I am doing this on my phone, and comingled your post with Excaliber's. The steel in those cases is not particularly strong.

Excaliber,

So tell me where the state of your build is.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Much thanks for the heads-up.

Greg

 

[excaliber]

Greg,

I am doing this on my phone, and comingled your post with Excaliber's. The steel in those cases is not particularly strong.

Excaliber,

So tell me where the state of your build is.

Noel, I`ll send you an email. Confidential.

 

[F4D]

Lowlight, Did you set the sensitivity on the MagnetoSpeed for solids. And.........................You really need a wireless cam set up. I can't afford the gas running back and forth at a mile.

Great testing.

 

[Lowlight]

The solids were fine over the magnetoSpeed, I didn't need to adjust anything. They are not the brass based like ones that cause an issue. Lots of copper to read. My load was just conservative. Which with more ammo I can push it harder.

I have a target camera, just didn't bring it, but will use it moving forward. Plus I just left my diesel running it gets 700 miles to a tank, and burns practically nothing at idle.

 

[Noel Carlson]

This announcement is a Sniper's Hide exclusive.

Beginning today, ZA will take orders on an initial production run of 338 barrels designed soley for use with the ZA338/6.4-M projectile.

Specifications ZA Barrel :

- 416R
- Eighteen-groove proprietary variable geometry
- Left-hand twist
- 30" finish length
- Single-point cut rifled
- Guaranteed sub-half MOA

Specifications Projectile ZA338/6.4-M :

- 295 grains
- G1 0.90 @ 2,700 fps
- Add ~150 fps MV to ZA as compared to 300 grain jacketed-projectile loaded at equivalent chamber pressure
- Available in hollow-point

For the next few days I will only be checking messages in the evening. PM me through SH if you are interested in purchasing a barrel. I would like to limit sale to those confident in targeting at 1,500 yards+ so that objective data collection/review can take place on this forum absent the cluttering effect of commercial theater.

Some notifications are in order; It is potentially dangerous to fire a conventional projectile through this barrel's rifling geometry, as the high rpm creates a distinct possibility of copper-jacketed projectile disintegration in the muzzle brake. To partially guard against hazardous experimentation, the bore diameter of the ZA 338 is exactly 0.338" (rather than .330"). This will impart little, or no, spin to a conventional bullet. All ZA barrels will be installed by designated smiths, with the ZA logo engraved on the finished contour, and all necessary warnings against inappropriate use. Existing muzzle brakes are compatible with the ZA system. I will be in Las Vegas through Saturday, the 18th, if you are attending SHOT and would like to meet for any reason. Prior to that it will be difficult to communicate except by email, or PMs, which I will answer in the evenings.

I should also amend Frank's earlier photo post by saying that the projectile being made available for sale is not the one pictured. That is a two-year old design which was optimized for conventional rifling. If close attention is given to his photos, a white residue is visible on the case neck, and projectile ogive. This is trace of a ceramic lubricant formulated to protect the throat from heat-erosion. In the Bradley mounted 25mm chain-gun, the lubricant extended barrel life by a factor of 50. I do not know what the ZA barrel life will be when cartridges are consistently seated utilizing the ZA bore lube, but it should be a significant improvement over the typical 2,000 rounds of accurate life. There is also a side benefit of low, single digit, ES.

Best,
Noel Carlson

 

[BusterB]

Great to see another option for ELR on the table! just a little confused by this section though, it seems to contradict itself. Can you please elaborate?

Some notifications are in order; It is potentially dangerous to fire a conventional projectile through this barrel's rifling geometry, as the high rpm creates a distinct possibility of copper-jacketed projectile disintegration in the muzzle brake. To partially guard against hazardous experimentation, the bore diameter of the ZA 338 is exactly 0.338" (rather than .330"). This will impart little, or no, spin to a conventional bullet.

how can it impart little to no spin on a conventional bullet and also spin them fast enough to disintegrate?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Buster B,

"how can it impart little to no spin on a conventional bullet and also spin them fast enough to disintegrate?"...

The redimensioning will keep major brand bullet manufacturers safe, but there are a handful of custom bullet makers that might decide to chase the bore/groove dimensions with experimental dies... I want to make an unlikely problem still less probable.

 

[BusterB]

Ok. Makes complete sense.
Very exited to see more results!

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[Greg Langelius *]

This ceramic lubricant and its potential for improved bore longevity has me enthralled.

Could it be useful in other applications such as we hobbyists could employ?

Is this a commercially available product, and would anyone be willing to give us more insight as to its availability and use?

Greg

 

[Noel Carlson]

Greg,

"Could it be useful in other applications such as we hobbyists could employ?"...

Yes, initial testing with conventional ammunition was astonishing. While there is no natural reservoir to carry ZA lube down the bore on a jacketed bullet, precise application to the base with a follow-on coat of silicone lacquer works well.

"Is this a commercially available product, and would anyone be willing to give us more insight as to its availability and use?"...

It is only available through ZA, and yes... it is ready for shipment.

 

[agbm]

PM sent to you

 

[Noel Carlson]

Greg,

I have a minute, so some it might be time to provide additional detail on use of ZA bore-lube. This grease-consistency compound "fires" onto metal surfaces at propellant combustion temperatures. After an initial primer film is laid down with a patch, all subsequent deposits are applied through actual shooting... and the process is self-cleaning, at least for engraving-band projectiles. I have no reason to believe the same would not be true of jacketed bullets. One of the ingredients is present only for the purpose of scavenging carbon, and copper.

Frank will probably demonstrate application following SHOT. I was really not planning for the lube to become a primary focus this early.

 

[bohem]

I was really not planning for the lube to become a primary focus this early.

But Noel, you wrote the magic phrase

"extended barrel life..."

Forum-wars are won and lost over this argument alone!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Greg,

I have a minute, so some it might be time to provide additional detail on use of ZA bore-lube. This grease-consistency compound "fires" onto metal surfaces at propellant combustion temperatures. After an initial primer film is laid down with a patch, all subsequent deposits are applied through actual shooting... and the process is self-cleaning, at least for engraving-band projectiles. I have no reason to believe the same would not be true of jacketed bullets. One of the ingredients is present only for the purpose of scavenging carbon, and copper.

Frank will probably demonstrate application following SHOT. I was really not planning for the lube to become a primary focus this early.

Reading this, I see potential for the chamberings I shoot that are borderline near-overbore, like the .260, .280, and .30-'06; but I'm not so clear about whether this substance would be contraindicated for gas guns.

Greg

 

[Noel Carlson]

Bohem,

" 'I was really not planning for the lube to become a primary focus this early.
But Noel, you wrote the magic phrase

'extended barrel life...'

Forum-wars are won and lost over this argument alone!"...

What the grease giveth, it taketh away. I expect the gains realized at lower pressures (40-50 kpsi) will break-even at the operating ranges enabled with HP steel cases.

Greg,

"Reading this, I see potential for the chamberings I shoot that are borderline near-overbore, like the .260, .280, and .30-'06; but I'm not so clear about whether this substance would be contraindicated for gas guns."...

At the gas port, concentrations of lube would be relatively small. To the extent it entered the actuating cylinder, lubricating properties should still exist, and there would certainly be less build-up than that deposited by propellant residue.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

That answers my questions. I will be following this topic more closely.

Greg

PS, Wouldn't ya know it, I came up with another question. Could you be more descriptive about the "Silicone Lacquer" used for coating the bullet base application?

 

[bohem]

Bohem,

" 'I was really not planning for the lube to become a primary focus this early.
But Noel, you wrote the magic phrase

'extended barrel life...'

Forum-wars are won and lost over this argument alone!"...

What the grease giveth, it taketh away. I expect the gains realized at lower pressures (40-50 kpsi) will break-even at the operating ranges enabled with HP steel cases.

Greg,

"Reading this, I see potential for the chamberings I shoot that are borderline near-overbore, like the .260, .280, and .30-'06; but I'm not so clear about whether this substance would be contraindicated for gas guns."...

At the gas port, concentrations of lube would be relatively small. To the extent it entered the actuating cylinder, lubricating properties should still exist, and there would certainly be less build-up than that deposited by propellant residue.

It's interesting stuff, best of luck with it. I have a very nice little gas gun in 6mm that we can try it on if you want to get me a small sample, I'm about to run off a batch of ammo for it and I can pre-lube the bullets first and let you know how it works with both conventional bullets and a direct impingement system running at 60ksi Pmax.

 

[steve123]

Noel,

Will the ZA338/6.4-M projectile and your barrel work well at higher FPS like a 338-408 Cheytac would produce?

 

[pyrofx]

Noel , I'm about to head back over to the SHOT Show, where could I find you today
Greg.

 

[jfields]

So... with a 30" finish length, is 3000 FPS reasonable for a .338LM? Can we get a price per projectile?

-J

 

[Noel Carlson]

Greg,

"PS, Wouldn't ya know it, I came up with another question. Could you be more descriptive about the "Silicone Lacquer" used for coating the bullet base application?"...

Silicone lacquer is manufactured by Dow, and one other company that I am aware of. It forms a hard combustable shell around the grease to prevent it from picking up propellant grains like doughnut sprinkles, and forms oxidation products that are beneficial. The main reason for avoiding the use of organic lacquer is that it adds carbon to the gas flow with no attendant benefit.

Bohem,

"I have a very nice little gas gun in 6mm that we can try it on if you want to get me a small sample, I'm about to run off a batch of ammo for it and I can pre-lube the bullets first and let you know how it works with both conventional bullets and a direct impingement system running at 60ksi Pmax."...

Let's talk.

Steve 123,

"Will the ZA338/6.4-M projectile and your barrel work well at higher FPS like a 338-408 Cheytac would produce?"...

That is *exactly* what I designed it for. The whole purpose of the bore-lube is to make such over-bore cartridges practical. The projectile itself comes into its own at the higher velocities. The barrel is the system's weak link. I was forced to use exotic alloys that start at about $1,600 for a raw blank, or find a way to make 416/4150 rifle bores live in a hellish thermal environment. Economics favor the latter approach... at least in barrels employed in a low cyclic-rate application.

Pryorfx,

I am tied up until Saturday. Will you still be around?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Jfields,

Sorry, I missed you.

"So... with a 30" finish length, is 3000 FPS reasonable for a .338LM?"...

3,150 fps.

"Can we get a price per projectile?"...

$2.00 each

 

[bohem]

Noel Carlson
Bohem,

........

Let's talk.

Sounds good, give me a call after you spool down from SHOT, I'm sure you're swamped this week. I will be loading probably next weekend.

 

[jfields]

Jfields,

Sorry, I missed you.

"So... with a 30" finish length, is 3000 FPS reasonable for a .338LM?"...

3,150 fps.

"Can we get a price per projectile?"...

$2.00 each

That's pretty outstanding and the price isn't bad either. I guess if you are going this route, you may as well do an .338 LM AI. That would have to mean close to 3,300 FPS.

If you're going to be a bear... be a grizzly, eh?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Jfields,

"That's pretty outstanding and the price isn't bad either. I guess if you are going this route, you may as well do an .338 LM AI. That would have to mean close to 3,300 FPS."...

I need to make a correction. An improved version of the 338LM (124 gr. H20) was used to get 3,200 fps with Retumbo. We backed off to 3,150 fps in order to add a margine of temperature tolerance. If VV N-570, or RL-33 had been used, 3,300 fps is possible, but I have not actually done it.

"If you're going to be a bear... be a grizzly, eh?"...

Ditto, which is why the 338/408 is looking increasingly interesting if used in conjunction with ceramic bore lubricant.

 

[excaliber]

Noel, PM sent

 

[Lowlight]

Noel has asked me to post a video showing the paste being applied to the driving bands.

So here is a short little loading video I did yesterday. I am looking for a max load and 92.0gr is a compressed load but I will try it to see what the velocity is, however it's hot so don't repeat it.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/GyJIMok9DE0?list=UUwHsnyWOaQNtrGjJKsTgegg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Raufoss]

ceramic paste? info?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Raufoss

The compound that Frank is applying between the two rear engraving bands was tested on the 25mm Bushmaster, and found to increase throat life from 40 rounds cyclic mode, to 2,000 rounds @ 200 rounds per minute.

I do not know ZA barrel life expectancy when used as Frank's video demonstrated, but it should increase significantly. ES holds in the low single digits as an incidental benefit. This is important within the ZA system for two primary reasons; First, I use eighteen grooves, which concentrates a great deal of heat in outside corners of the small lands at the forcing-cone. Second, ZA loads are going to be hot by design. I had the choice of moving to extremely expensive barrel alloys, or find a way to make iron-based alloys live longer in a high heat/pressure environment.

Questions hitting my in-box centered more on the ceramic lubricant than on other aspects of the ZA system... probably because it was mentioned this also works well with conventional bullets. However, I have not done a great deal of work on that application. The video is intended to give readers some idea of how to load banded projectiles in conjunction with the lubricant.

 

[excaliber]

Noel,

Did you get my last PM?

 

[excaliber]

Noel,

Send it to me again PM.

 

[excaliber]

email sent

 

[Lowlight]

I'm not sending anyone a PM or Email... that is all.

 

[Ring]

Patent US6645612 - High solids hBN slurry, hBN paste, spherical hBN powder, and methods of ... - Google Patents

HBN Paste?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Hexagonal Boron Nitride is a "ceramic", but ZA bore-lube is *not* HBN.
I will be detailing neither the formulation, nor the prepration process.

 

[xdeano]

Lowlight,

I'd like to hear what kind of velocities you're pushing with the 92.0grn H1000 load. Good video by the way.

xdeano

 

[jmason]

Today I ran some maximum safe velocity testing with the ZA 338 280.5 grain Match bullets. No accuracy testing was done at this time. All shots fired from a 338-408 Improved with a 30" barrel.

Distance to first Chronograph screen: 13'4"
Temp. 39F
Humidity 69%
Station Pressure 28.59

Based on other data I'd collected I thought 142 grains of RL-50 would be a safe place to start. Below are my sample charges and velocities.

142gr = 3278fps
147gr = 3377fps
152gr = 3479fps
154gr = 3518fps

I got a maximum velocity of 3518 w/ RL-50. The Primer was still round around the edges but some firing pin hole puckering was becoming evident. Given this is well over 100 FPS faster than I could run other 300 gr conventional, and solid bullets, I saw no reason to push. I Highly doubt I'm burning all the powder I'm putting through it. I feel pretty strongly a longer barrel would offer some increase on the top end.

Without any other test firing I simply loaded what I felt was the maximum safe powder charge(not knowing if it would produce an acceptable ES). I chose 153 Grains of RL-50 for 6 shots. It produced an ES of 8 and avg velocity of 3508 fps. Even though these bullets were not designed for my barrel they did produce sub MOA groups at 100 yards.

 

[jmason]

300gr match king- 280gr ZA- 325Gr Rocky mountain

 

[steve123]

Great looking rifle!

How about some specs on the rifle.

What twist are you running?

 

[jmason]

The rifle was built by montour county rifles.

Barrel is 1-9.4 broughton
Action is Bat
Jewell trigger
MCR custom laminate stock
Muscle brake

Sorry for brevity sent from my phone

 

[jfields]

Hey, Lowlight... What ever happened with this project? Curious to know if you or anyone else ever did any more testing.

Thanks,

-J

 

[Noel Carlson]

Jfields,

Frank is waiting for a new barrel to shoot the current 338 ZA projectile. We have been struggling with Emerson to get their software communicating properly with their CNC controllers for over four months now. The drill, and oversize 338 reamer are waiting patiently on the shelf.

That portion of development has taken so long that a secondary project, ZA standard rifling projectiles, will beat the hyper-velocity system to market. There will be an announcement here on the Hide within the next few weeks.

 

[jfields]

Jfields,

Frank is waiting for a new barrel to shoot the current 338 ZA projectile. We have been struggling with Emerson to get their software communicating properly with their CNC controllers for over four months now. The drill, and oversize 338 reamer are waiting patiently on the shelf.

That portion of development has taken so long that a secondary project, ZA standard rifling projectiles, will beat the hyper-velocity system to market. There will be an announcement here on the Hide within the next few weeks.

I look forward to it! Thanks!