Disappointed with BCM 18" SPR barrel

[Steel head]

Well since I'm the OP, I might as well give an update. I got rid of the BCM barrel and replaced it with the Douglas. The Douglas is much more accurate, however my chrono data shows it being inconsistent. Standard Deviations vary from 20-30 fps on match ammo. I've only taken it out to 300 yards however, and it rang 2 MOA steel at that distance with boring repeatability.

Good to hear you got a barrel you like, sounds like the BCM barrel was a dud, it happens.
I'd trust what the bullets do at 500 or so than what the chrony says.
The SPR barrels make for a awesome AR, I have a Rainier Ultramatch SPR and it's a dream to shoot.

 

[GH41]

Well since I'm the OP, I might as well give an update. I got rid of the BCM barrel and replaced it with the Douglas. The Douglas is much more accurate, however my chrono data shows it being inconsistent. Standard Deviations vary from 20-30 fps on match ammo. I've only taken it out to 300 yards however, and it rang 2 MOA steel at that distance with boring repeatability.

How much more accurate is the Douglas barrel? You said the BCM barrel shot 1.5-2 moa with "match" ammo. You now say the Douglas barrel shot 2 moa with match ammo. What is this match ammo you are using?

 

[lennyo3034]

How much more accurate is the Douglas barrel? You said the BCM barrel shot 1.5-2 moa with "match" ammo. You now say the Douglas barrel shot 2 moa with match ammo. What is this match ammo you are using?

I would say when shooting for groups at 100 yards, it about half the group sizes of what I posted with the BCM. My "match" ammo is actually handloads. 69 gr GMM, Blackhills 77gr, and IMI 77gr are what I use as baselines but the handloads are a little better.

I said I was shooting at a 2 MOA target at 300 yards, and it was too easy, not that the barrel shoots 2 MOA.

 

[GH41]

I would say when shooting for groups at 100 yards, it about half the group sizes of what I posted with the BCM. My "match" ammo is actually handloads. 69 gr GMM, Blackhills 77gr, and IMI 77gr are what I use as baselines but the handloads are a little better.

I said I was shooting at a 2 MOA target at 300 yards, and it was too easy, not that the barrel shoots 2 MOA.

So the new barrel is shooting 3/4 to 1 moa with your home made ammo? How does it shoot the 62 factory grain ammo you hoped to get 1.5 moa from? 2 moa at 300 is 6". Are you ringing 6" plates at 300?? Tell me about the rifle.

 

[lennyo3034]

So the new barrel is shooting 3/4 to 1 moa with your home made ammo? How does it shoot the 62 factory grain ammo you hoped to get 1.5 moa from? 2 moa at 300 is 6". Are you ringing 6" plates at 300?? Tell me about the rifle.

3/4-1 MOA is about right from bench. I've been shooting the rifle more from alternate positions that are not as stable so I have done a ton of group shooting with it. Yes, 6" plate at 300, not difficult at all with this rifle. I haven't been running factory 62 grains, but have been shooting 55 grain geco FMJ. It does phenomenal, with that, giving my handloads a run for it's money.

Picture of rifle:

SI defense billet receivers
SSA-E
SWFA 1-6.

 

[ashooter]

If anybody cares, I've posted a photo below... Shows results with my new 18" stainless barreled BCM upper. Optic is a Leupold 2.5-8x Mk4 MR/T with MLR reticle mounted in a (properly torqued) ADM mount. Brake was OPS Inc 12th Model. The "no brake" groups were shot with completely bare muzzle.

Grid squares on the target are 0.36" (1/10th mil at 100 yds). Groups marked were measured center-to-center with calipers.

This 18" stainless barrel seems to be capable of 2 MOA or better with premium priced ammo, so I think I'm going to go through a lengthy break-in process and just live with it. However, this kind of erratic accuracy is not what I expected out of BCM's "premium" barrel.

 

[shotdown]

My BCM barrel has been okay. I get 1.5 MOA or less consistently at 100 yards using Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets. However, it does not like the Armscor 55 gr bullets. Groups open up quite a bit.

 

[tickled pink]

Ditch your barrel and get a WOA and never look back. This is my target using Sierra 65 gr. Game Kings at 100 yds. 69 gr. Match Kings group much smaller with my 18" barrel.

 

[ashooter]

Ditch your barrel and get a WOA and never look back. This is my target using Sierra 65 gr. Game Kings at 100 yds. 69 gr. Match Kings group much smaller with my 18" barrel.

Damn nice shootin'.

I'd be happy if it would just shoot as good as my chrome-lined BCM's... Hate to pitch a $300+ barrel, but it doesn't sound like BCM will take it back. If I can get it to settle down with a good break-in, I can live with it. I shoot mostly steel anyway, so under 2 MOA is good enough for my uses.

 

[sendit300]

As others stated, possibly mount/optic combo, or just a bad turn on your barrel. You can try to use one of many break-in techniques, see link below. I've got nothing but, and advise others to go with Compass Lake Engineering barrels. A bit of a wait time in some cases, but well worth it.

Break-In & Cleaning

 

[ashooter]

As others stated, possibly mount/optic combo, or just a bad turn on your barrel. You can try to use one of many break-in techniques, see link below. I've got nothing but, and advise others to go with Compass Lake Engineering barrels. A bit of a wait time in some cases, but well worth it.

Break-In & Cleaning

Yeah, I thought about the mount/optic, but since I shot 4 groups with the brake, then removed and shot 4 groups without the brake, and the results were more or less parallel, I ruled that out. It's not like the optic is going to be looser with American Eagle, then tighten up for Black Hills, then get loose again for American Eagle.

Thanks for the Krieger link. That's the same method I've used in the past with good results. Didn't bother doing it with this barrel right out of the box, since BCM advertises it being "hand lapped" and all that. Since the one load that shot pretty well is a Black Hills with moly'd bullets, and the non-moly'd Mk262 and Asym didn't do so hot, it makes me think (hope) maybe a good break-in will slick things up enough to make a difference. At least I don't see how it could HURT anything at this point.

 

[-=boone=-]

Interesting topic.

I've had a number of AR's and or AR barrels.

I currently have two BCM SS410 barrels. Ones a 16" mid length gas and the other is a 18" rifle length gas. They're both very accurate shooting guns.

One of the most interesting conversations I had with one of the top of the line barrel manufacturers was very insightful. Given this manufacturer is represented on this very form board and a lot of you use his barrels on your custom bolt actions.

His exact words? "No one in the industry touches Douglas when it comes to SPR barrels, no one. Not even my own."

 

[ashooter]

To BCM's credit, they seem willing to consider that I'm not just a crappy shooter... I just received this email from them:

Thank you for the update and the pictures, it really helps to illustrate your description of what you are experiencing

The following is a guide to "break-in" based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less. It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern and the patches. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in.

Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five shots. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. Do not be alarmed if your seating depth gets longer during break in. This is typical of the “high” spots in the throat being knocked down during this procedure. It is not uncommon for throat length to grow .005”-.030” from a fresh unfired chamber during break in.

Stainless
5-10 one-shot cycles
1 three-shot cycle
1 five-shot cycle

If after your break-in period you still have accuracy issues, please let us know and we would be happy to take a look at your upper.

 

[tickled pink]

I just called WOA and I was told that most of their barrels including the ones they compete with are Wilson blanks. They also use the top name blanks too. They do their own finishing work.

I know I have no complaints with mine.

 

[lennyo3034]

Interesting topic.

I've had a number of AR's and or AR barrels.

I currently have two BCM SS410 barrels. Ones a 16" mid length gas and the other is a 18" rifle length gas. They're both very accurate shooting guns.

One of the most interesting conversations I had with one of the top of the line barrel manufacturers was very insightful. Given this manufacturer is represented on this very form board and a lot of you use his barrels on your custom bolt actions.

His exact words? "No one in the industry touches Douglas when it comes to SPR barrels, no one. Not even my own."

I don't know about that one. I actually had two Douglas SPR barrels. One of them was melonited and I sold it off, not because there was anything wrong with it, I just bought it for a test.

Both barrels exhibited the exact same issue in that the bores did not seem consistent when pushing a patch through. I can feel tight and loose spots as I clean the barrel. If it were tightening all the way from chamber to muzzle, that's not a concern, but that's not the case. Rather it seems I have loose spots at various points in the bore. As I said before, BOTH barrels had this issue. I suspect this may be the reason I have such variations in velocity. However, both barrels shot well. I kept the stainless on my SPR even after discovering this issue because it produces good results on paper. In the end this matters more. I feel the quality of the barrel is not quite as good as the Kriegers I own, or even the Douglas barrel on my M1a. A friend of mine has a Shilen select match, and I would that barrel over mine.

 

[lennyo3034]

To BCM's credit, they seem willing to consider that I'm not just a crappy shooter... I just received this email from them:

Thank you for the update and the pictures, it really helps to illustrate your description of what you are experiencing

The following is a guide to "break-in" based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less. It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern and the patches. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in.

Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five shots. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. Do not be alarmed if your seating depth gets longer during break in. This is typical of the “high” spots in the throat being knocked down during this procedure. It is not uncommon for throat length to grow .005”-.030” from a fresh unfired chamber during break in.

Stainless
5-10 one-shot cycles
1 three-shot cycle
1 five-shot cycle

If after your break-in period you still have accuracy issues, please let us know and we would be happy to take a look at your upper.

Maybe try JB bore paste? I did that with my Douglas and am happy with it.

 

[ashooter]

Yeah, I've got some KG-2 Bore Polish that I've had good luck using with VFG "pellets". It contains a very fine abrasive similar to JB Bore Paste. I use the stuff only for break-in, or to de-foul a barrel after several thousand rounds. Seems like it would probably eat up a barrel pretty quick if I was the kind of guy that cleaned after every range trip.

 

[Javelin]

If accuracy is what you're after I would recommend a stainless Noveske barrel. I think they infuse the metal with a little magic during the turning process.

 

[-=boone=-]

I don't know about that one. I actually had two Douglas SPR barrels. One of them was melonited and I sold it off, not because there was anything wrong with it, I just bought it for a test.

Both barrels exhibited the exact same issue in that the bores did not seem consistent when pushing a patch through. I can feel tight and loose spots as I clean the barrel. If it were tightening all the way from chamber to muzzle, that's not a concern, but that's not the case. Rather it seems I have loose spots at various points in the bore. As I said before, BOTH barrels had this issue. I suspect this may be the reason I have such variations in velocity. However, both barrels shot well. I kept the stainless on my SPR even after discovering this issue because it produces good results on paper. In the end this matters more. I feel the quality of the barrel is not quite as good as the Kriegers I own, or even the Douglas barrel on my M1a. A friend of mine has a Shilen select match, and I would that barrel over mine.

So you actually never found anything wrong with either barrels? You felt there could be a issue when you pushed a patch down them? You can't be serious. I just believe the bullet. Never a chrono.

As per the conversation between me and a barrel maker, it happened. You can feel free not to believe it if you want. However I don't spew bullshit or rumors.

 

[-=boone=-]

If accuracy is what you're after I would recommend a stainless Noveske barrel. I think they infuse the metal with a little magic during the turning process.

You mean Pac Nor barrel. LMFAO

 

[lennyo3034]

So you actually never found anything wrong with either barrels? You felt there could be a issue when you pushed a patch down them? You can't be serious. I just believe the bullet. Never a chrono.

As per the conversation between me and a barrel maker, it happened. You can feel free not to believe it if you want. However I don't spew bullshit or rumors.

I even said in my post that accuracy is more important. I just noted something about these barrels, and back it up with chrono results. And then I ended it with: "it produces good results on paper. In the end this matters more". I'm not saying that barrel maker didn't say that to you, or that it was even untrue. It just hasn't been my experience.

My friend's Shilen also outshoots this Douglas, however it's about $100 more expensive.

 

[-=boone=-]

I even said in my post that accuracy is more important. I just noted something about these barrels, and back it up with chrono results. And then I ended it with: "it produces good results on paper. In the end this matters more". I'm not saying that barrel maker didn't say that to you, or that it was even untrue. It just hasn't been my experience.

My friend's Shilen also outshoots this Douglas, however it's about $100 more expensive.

Curious question, are both barrels running the same chamber?

 

[lennyo3034]

Good question. My stainless is a CLE match chamber. The melonited one I had was a wylde chamber. I think the Shilen was a wylde chamber but I'm not positive, will have to ask him.

 

[tickled pink]

This is why I got a WOA. I have never read things like this about their barrels. Their may be some place, but I have never seen anything posted about them that was negative.

 

[Javelin]

You mean Pac Nor barrel. LMFAO

No actually I mean a Noveske barrel.

 

[jstone]

No actually I mean a Noveske barrel.

Noveske gets there blanks from PAC-NOR. John Noveske worked for PAC-NOR before starting Noveske. If you go to PAC-NOR and go to there ar barrels they are Noveske. I own a Noveske spr upper, and I like it just fine. They really are not worth the premium they cost. You could get a barrel from virtually any top barrel maker for what you pay for a Noveske.

 

[wareagle700]

For the Noveske vs. Pacnor crowd:

"Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop."

Noveske Rifleworks N4 Light Recce Carbine: John Noveske Interview, Part One | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and greatest tactical firearms news (tact

So, unless something has changed since John's death, Noveske makes Noveske barrels.

They are great barrels for the run and gun crowd with reliability being their primary focus. Many people confuse the price with accuracy expectations, thats not the case.

 

[russ10x]

You might want to look at the Compass Lake Douglas SPR barrel with AMU chamber. I had one done by Frank White and it took about 5 weeks. Im very happy with barrel.

Compass Lake Engineering

I would not be happy with the accuracy your getting personally

My SPR is a converted Match Service Rifle, as I no longer can get into a sling due to injuries. It is a Douglas fluted SS 1:8 chambered in .223 by Frank White, and I have around 3000 rounds down the tube. It shoots sub MOA with 75 Grain Hornady's, no problem. Ball ammo, 1.5 to 2.0 MOA. I can't complain one bit.

 

[OldGuardShooter]

I recently bought the 20 inch Barreled upper from Bravo Company and it shot 6 to 8 inch groups at 25 to 30 yards . I took it to a smith thinking i put the rifle together wrong he double checked everything and said i did a great job . he test fired it and got 8 inch groups at 30 yards. i sent the barrel back to them and they sent me a new one. You can give up trying to call them and if they don't respond to a email keep sending them because i think they have server issues . They sometimes say they don't get a email when people have said they sent several. They helped me and I 100% love Bravo Company all 3 of my Ar's have their barrels a 20 inch , 14.5 and a 11.5 i won't use another companies unless i had to.

 

[WaltHer]

Bcm stating that "they've never had a problem" with those is absolute bullshit. I've had nothing but problems with my BCM DD MK 12 SPR and I've got the email chain to prove it. Most frustrating is that BCM flat out refused numerous attempts to speak witk me via phone. Their insistence on dealing with my issues via email only underline a flat out lack of tangible customer service, and turned what could have been a ten minute phone conversation into a two week email conversation that ended with them suggesting I purchase a trigger upgrade from them. Needless to say, the correct answer is fuck you and fuck that. For better or worse the solution for me seems to be 77 gr moly smk with 24.2gr CFE. My groups have dropped to moa or better with the occasional bullshit flyer. My BCM just won't run 55 or 62 grain bullets. Too bad because the fit and finish is very nice. Their shitty version of customer service is the end of our relationship. I urge you not to get in a position to need support from them.

 

[Javelin]

I spoke personally with John Noveske on numerous occasions and the fact of the matter is Noveske uses their own barrel blanks, metallurgy, tooling and rifling specifications for their barrels (where else have you seen an M249 steel barrel blank used in any other rifle platform other than an M249 & Noveske ARs?) . It just made financial sense for Noveske Rifleworks to utilize Pac-Nor tooling facilities as they have some of the best machines for turning barrels & yes John's personal relationship with Pac-Nor helped.

I really wish this whole Pac-Nor arf.com rumor BS would be laid to rest. But alas the internet rumor mill never really dies. We really did lose a legend when he passed.

 

[-=boone=-]

I spoke personally with John Noveske on numerous occasions and the fact of the matter is Noveske uses their own barrel blanks, metallurgy, tooling and rifling specifications for their barrels (where else have you seen an M249 steel barrel blank used in any other rifle platform other than an M249 & Noveske ARs?) . It just made financial sense for Noveske Rifleworks to utilize Pac-Nor tooling facilities as they have some of the best machines for turning barrels & yes John's personal relationship with Pac-Nor helped.

I really wish this whole Pac-Nor arf.com rumor BS would be laid to rest. But alas the internet rumor mill never really dies. We really did lose a legend when he passed.

What might actually help that rumor is calling PAC Nor and telling them that. If you call them they will tell you it's a PAC nor barrel. Just sayin...

 

[bp7178]

(where else have you seen an M249 steel barrel blank used in any other rifle platform other than an M249 & Noveske ARs?)

Other than EVERY barrel made by FN then sold through various dealers under different brand names?

I feel that Noveske article has hit the same level as the Chris Rock video about how not to get your ass kicked by the police. I wish they would both just go away already.

I wouldn't say Noveske barrels are made by Pac Nor. At what point does metal stock become a barrel? When its deep hole drilled and rifled, its far from being a finished product. It would be more accurate to say Noveske sources their blanks from Pac Nor.

The complaints about the pricing don't take into account what you're getting. A lot of the features of a Noveske barrel are add-ons other places. Bead blasting, gas blocks and gas tubes, pinning of the gas block etc all add to the cost. While I would agree they are on the higher side of pricing, the gap narrows when you take into acount what you're getting.

Either way, Noveske barrels aren't the most accurate out there. I have shot some amazing groups with the various ones I've owned throughout the years, but my Bartlein SPR barrel puts them all to shame. It is WAY more consistent. Cost wise, it was $609.25 shipped with a matched bolt. I Cerakoted it myself later, which probably cost another $60 bucks after the kit from Brownells and a cheapo airbrush. There's a sliding scale to the improvement you get compared to the cost.

 

[ashooter]

Update on my sample of ONE BCM SPR barrel -

Finally went through a proper barrel break-in procedure this weekend. Sorry no target photos, but bottom line is that group sizes shrunk by about 30% or so after break-in. Ammo that was shooting 3.5 inch groups is shooting 2 inch groups. Ammo that was shooting 2 inch groups is now shooting about 1.5 or a little better. Hornady 75gr TAP and Black Hills moly'd 75gr blue box will both do right at 1" - maybe better with a better shooter, higher powered optic, etc.

Break-in procedure was as follows, using coated cleaning rod and VFG felt "pellets":

1) Clean the barrel with KG-12 bore cleaner, to start with a more or less blank slate - maybe 10 wipes wet with KG-12, followed by a few wipes with oiled (Slip2000 EWL) pellet, and a wipe with a dry pellet

2) Ten cycles of 1 shot, followed by 3 wipes with KG-2 bore polish, followed by 2 wipes with lightly oiled pellet

3) Three cycles of 3 shots, followed by 3 wipes with oiled pellet, followed by 1 wipe with dry pellet.

4) One fouling shot, then started shooting 5-rd groups on paper.

Could be coincidence, but successive groups seemed to get progressively tighter, I suspect because of the bearing surface building and smoothing. For example, group #2 was Black Hills Mk262 "seconds" at 2.14", then the same ammo printed group #4 into 1.26". My guess is that the barrel will continue to settle down and tighten up groups a little more.

My old "good enough for the price" standby, Prvi 75gr "match", now shoots a hair over 2 MOA, so I can live with that... That ammo doesn't shoot much better than that in ANYTHING I've ever shot it in, but that's close enough for shooting steel out to 600yds, which is mostly what I do. Kind of a pain in the butt to get a supposedly "premium" barrel to shoot worth a damn, but I can live with it. This is the first and last "precision" AR-type I will ever put together using a BCM barrel, though.

 

[Cobracutter]

I've never had decent groups when using 62 gr ball ammo in any of my AR 15 platform rifles which include, 2 Noveske's Afghan's, POF 415. BCM M4. Colt 6920, Colt 6721, S&W MP 10 Tactical, and SIG 516. groups all were about 3 MOA some larger. With my hand loads all of these rifles are well under 1 MOA for 5 shot 100 yard groups.

Anyone who claims they are getting sub-moa, consistent groups from 62gr ball is fos. Yes they may get a lucky group here or there but show me 10 shot groups string after string.

Its minute of Green Korean silhouette. The ammo has too much variability between rounds/lots.

 

[Cobracutter]

I'm dragging this thread back to life to see if there's any new info on current production BCM stainless barrels...

I have a new BCM 18" barreled upper that is pretty erratic. I've shot 5 different loads through it and accuracy varies from about 1 moa to about 4 moa. Some 10-15 yr old Black Hills moly'd 75gr blue box shot best at 1 moa or a little better. Asym 75gr and Black Hills Mk262 "seconds" were about 2 moa. Prvi 75gr was about 3 moa. Fed AmEagle 55gr FMJ was a solid 4 moa. With/without muzzle device didn't tighten up groups any, but did change POI. Hell, I've got a couple of "standard" chrome-lined BCM's that'll shoot better than this, so I'm not happy.

My question is: Should I expect this barrel to settle down with some more rounds downrange and tighten up the groups any, or do I just have a finicky barrel?

Thanks

Bottom line, BCM is not a premium barrel maker. Just like a host of other companies, if you want precision, you need to pay. The only real exception is WOA.

Considering the Barrel is the single most important factory to an AR's accuracy, its the last thing you skimp on. BCM makes great CL barrels, but you are pissing money down the drain with their stainless offerings. Lija, Krieger, CLE, WOA and even Noveske all make mucho superioso tubes.

 

[Cobracutter]

You mean Pac Nor barrel. LMFAO

Yea for real... your best bet is to hope NO ONE from noveskee actually gets their hands on the tube............not exactly batting 1.000 since john died.

 

[Cobracutter]

My SPR is a converted Match Service Rifle, as I no longer can get into a sling due to injuries. It is a Douglas fluted SS 1:8 chambered in .223 by Frank White, and I have around 3000 rounds down the tube. It shoots sub MOA with 75 Grain Hornady's, no problem. Ball ammo, 1.5 to 2.0 MOA. I can't complain one bit.

FSB and a 20" tube......A SPR that is NOT.

 

[wareagle700]

FSB and a 20" tube......A SPR that is NOT.

Maybe not a Mk.12 but I don't see why calling it a SPR is a problem. I also don't get why some get so bent out of shape over what others call their rifles.

 

[Cobracutter]

Maybe not a Mk.12 but I don't see why calling it a SPR is a problem. I also don't get why some get so bent out of shape over what others call their rifles.

No one is getting bent out of shape...... But words have meaninings.
Ignorance should not be tollerated at any level, and needs to be corrected. Its not a shot him, just a simple fact.

SPR has two meanings in the world of guns... Special Purpose Rifle, AKA Mk12 and the FN SPR, which we could agree this is not what he was talking about.

The SPR was a gun deveoped by CRANE with atleast 4 known variants.

ALL SPR's had 18" barrels and ALL SPR's had either a folding front sight like PRI or a rail mounted sight.

What he posted is not in any way shape or form a SPR, SPR Variant, or loose SPR Clone. It is as much of a SPR as it is a MK18 or M4. Its closer to a SDM or possiblly a SAM-R, but those also had no FSB.

Its like calling a Ford a Ferarri, and then people like you come in defending them....

 

[samnev]

Anyone who claims they are getting sub-moa, consistent groups from 62gr ball is fos. Yes they may get a lucky group here or there but show me 10 shot groups string after string.

Its minute of Green Korean silhouette. The ammo has too much variability between rounds/lots.

I don't know if your referring to me saying I was getting sub moa with 62 grain ball. But hat not what my post said. Perhaps I din't make myself clear but I said.

Originally Posted by samnev Original Post
I've never had decent groups when using 62 gr ball ammo in any of my AR 15 platform rifles which include, 2 Noveske's Afghan's, POF 415. BCM M4. Colt 6920, Colt 6721, S&W MP 15 Tactical, and SIG 516. groups all were about 3 MOA some larger. With my hand loads all of these rifles are well under 1 MOA for 5 shot 100 yard groups.

To be clear the last sentence should have said:

With my 52g SMK's and 69g SMK's hand loads all of these rifles are well under 1 MOA for 5 shot 100 yard groups. I was agreeing with you the 62 grain ball ammunition is minute of man not sub moa form any AR I tried them in and I tried them in all the ones I mentioned. Additionally I corrected the S&W Tactical to read M&P 15 not 10 which is a 308 as you know.

 

[Cobracutter]

I don't know if your referring to me saying I was getting sub moa with 62 grain ball. But hat not what my post said. Perhaps I din't make myself clear but I said.

Originally Posted by samnev Original Post
I've never had decent groups when using 62 gr ball ammo in any of my AR 15 platform rifles which include, 2 Noveske's Afghan's, POF 415. BCM M4. Colt 6920, Colt 6721, S&W MP 15 Tactical, and SIG 516. groups all were about 3 MOA some larger. With my hand loads all of these rifles are well under 1 MOA for 5 shot 100 yard groups.

To be clear the last sentence should have said:

With my 52g SMK's and 69g SMK's hand loads all of these rifles are well under 1 MOA for 5 shot 100 yard groups. I was agreeing with you the 62 grain ball ammunition is minute of man not sub moa form any AR I tried them in and I tried them in all the ones I mentioned. Additionally I corrected the S&W Tactical to read M&P 15 not 10 which is a 308 as you know.

I was agreeing with you...sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

[wareagle700]

No one is getting bent out of shape...... But words have meaninings.
Ignorance should not be tollerated at any level, and needs to be corrected.

Well you have got your work cut out for you, haha.

 

[Niles Coyote]

62 grain Winchester ball shot into 4-5 inches with my 18" Noveske, PMC 62 grain ball (X-tac IIRC) is around 3.5"... with the Winchester, it was easily 100+ fps faster and was hot enough in my gas system that it was starting to mess up the case rims.... So I pulled the rest of the Winchester stuff and did a quick load work up using there powder and got it to shoot around 2.5"... Too much work but it shoots better now and I know what to buy next time I wish to miss moa targets, LOL

 

[Cobracutter]

Well you have got your work cut out for you, haha.

Yea you ain't kidding.

I was building MK12 clones and similar guns before 99% of the people on this site even knew they existed.

The componets on the MK12 system are not the end all be all, even at that time period. Just added a capability the Army/Navy never had, and ended up creating a very very successfull weapon system as a result.

 

[Cobracutter]

62 grain Winchester ball shot into 4-5 inches with my 18" Noveske, PMC 62 grain ball (X-tac IIRC) is around 3.5"... with the Winchester, it was easily 100+ fps faster and was hot enough in my gas system that it was starting to mess up the case rims.... So I pulled the rest of the Winchester stuff and did a quick load work up using there powder and got it to shoot around 2.5"... Too much work but it shoots better now and I know what to buy next time I wish to miss moa targets, LOL

There is zero point to buying a premium barrel and shooting shit in it. Better off spending 1/2 - 1/3 the money and getting a quality CL barrel.

There are a TON of good .223 loads from 52gr SMK, 55gr AMAX, 68gr SMK, 75gr Amax/BTHP, 77/80gr and then all the bergers.

Shooting some junk through to plink is fine, but crap ammo = crap groups. No barrel can fix that.

 

[Niles Coyote]

There is zero point to buying a premium barrel and shooting shit in it. Better off spending 1/2 - 1/3 the money and getting a quality CL barrel.

There are a TON of good .223 loads from 52gr SMK, 55gr AMAX, 68gr SMK, 75gr Amax/BTHP, 77/80gr and then all the bergers.

Shooting some junk through to plink is fine, but crap ammo = crap groups. No barrel can fix that.

Yup, and yup, I do. Just wanted to know where it hit and after seeing the results and the fact that I love reloading I could not resist tampering...

 

[russ10x]

FSB and a 20" tube......A SPR that is NOT.

OK, you are getting into semantics? I guess the DMRs we used were not specially built.

 

[Cobracutter]

OK, you are getting into semantics? I guess the DMRs we used were not specially built.

Its not even close to semantics. Its a specific design with specific features.

Its like someone taking a 12.5 AR upper, and dropping a non DD rail on it and calling it a MK18. No sorry bud, its a 10.3" with RIS II rail.

Its ignorance pure and simple. You can't just call anything anything you want because it has a part or two in commonality. Otherwise we would all be shooting "glocks" "AK47's" and "assualt rifles".

Like the Patch btw. 29th is one of my SSI's.

 

[samnev]

I was agreeing with you...sorry if it wasn't clear.

Not a problem. I reread my original post and thought It could have easily been misconstrued which is why I changed it. I had 3000 rounds of that crap which I sold to an M16A2 shooter at a MG shoot. He loved it. I would have done better throwing the projo's at the target.