DO NOT BUY these items...

#201
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You "it's just a bag" crowd just don't get it...

What size or value of the product does it take to get mad about? If you had a business, and it was your product, I'm sure you'd love to have all your "small products" blatantly ripped off...

It's the principles (or lack thereof) that is the problem, not the product... You cheap as it gets, no matter where it comes from is why corporate greed works. It's why all the products we buy now are made in some mud hut piss ant communist country, and why EVERYTHING nowadays is considered "disposable".

Quality is so poor, and the manufacturer is so hard to actually find, that it's easier to just through it away and get a chicom replacement.

I worked at Wal-Mart when I was a kid, and it breaks my heart what has happened to that company. When I was there, Sam Walton was still alive, and he was ADAMANT that everything in his store was made in America. When he died, it was like the share holders were released from their cages, and there went a proud American company in lieu of bigger profits. Sad, sad, day.... </div></div>


LMFAO ..... you did not just use "I used to work at Walmart" as your preferred sob story about buying "made in America" ..... LOL.

How can you complain about somebody copying something that isn't patented. If they didn't want anyone to copy it ... they should have paid for a patent. That's the American way. Oh, wait a minute, it wouldn't be worth patenting because ..... it's just a F@!king sandbag ...... LOL </div></div>

You still don't get it.... *sigh* I don't blame you though. You're just a classic example of the American consumer that is unable to look past their nose. You are actually the majority, where people who think the way I do are the minority.

Enjoy your chicom world, Mutt. You deserve it....
 
#204
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

FWIW, while a student at gunsmithing school Brownells bent over backwards to help out the students by sponsoring memberships to the NRA Whittington Center, getting discounts on tools and parts, and sponsoring a yearly class trip to their career fair. I have never had a bad experience with them and they will continue to get my business.

On the other hand Midway never did one single thing for the students, doesn't provide gunsmithing students with any discounts, and continually charges more for equal products. Not to mention their website is a PITA to navigate and order from. That said, they will not be getting my business.

IMO it's the little things like this that define the character of a business.
 
#205
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

One thing I I think people are over looking here is fairly obvious. What percentage of recreational shooters even know the hide exists? let alone the originators of the products in question?

Im willing to bet its a fairly small percentage. Gotta figure most shooters are not enthusiasts in the purest sense of the word. Point is there is a right way and wrong way to go about this. Whining on a internet forum isnt going to do anybody any good. Did midway pull an unethical fast one?? most likely. Id be interested in founding out if was midway that ripped off the design or if they were propositioned by a third party that said hey! you should make something like this, it will sell. That from what I gather hasnt been determined. No question their in the wrong tho.

Point is the proper course of action would be to do everything possible to get the truth out and make people aware of the facts. Sure everyone on here knows whos who in the shooting world but john q public doesnt.
 
#206
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Enjoy your chicom world, Mutt. You <span style="text-decoration: line-through">deserve</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">bought</span> it.... </div></div>

Boiling this down, it's about choice and if you believe that the choices one makes is a function of ones character, then it's about that as well.

Midway chose to copy and be indifferent to the welfare of the companies they copied the bag designs from. Doubtless they have done this before and will do so again as long as this behaviour is rewarded. They have chosen to behave in a purely self-interested, short-sighted manner that ultimately will be to the detriment of their consumers and their own business.

We, the consumers, can choose, knowing the story behind these bags, whether or not we want to reward that behaviour. If we choose to reward Midway with our business, then we are the same as them. Where, how and by whom those rip-off bags are made is and should be irrelevant. Is it ok to beggar Triad but pay some other American money to rip off his design? Of course not.

The point of 'it's just a bag' is short-sighted. The behaviour here by Midway suggestes that it will do whatever it can that it feels it can get away with. A bag today but tomorrow....?

There's a great deal to be said for buying a product from the man who made it. To me, it's the purest form of capitalism. I like knowing Kasey at Accushot, Ted at American Rifle Company, Mike at Tactical Operations, Josh at Hog Saddle and others. I like hearing from them that business is good and they're well or hiring new people - here, in the USA and in their local communities. That's how and why this country became great and how it'll stay that way.

The robber barons like Midway will always be around, but it's our choices that shape their future just as much as they do the futures of the small businesses.
 
#207
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

I know one thing for damn sure. If I ever market anything it will either be under legal protection. The actions of companies like Midway and some of the apologist attitudes expressed here make CYA apparent.
 
#208
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You "it's just a bag" crowd just don't get it...

What size or value of the product does it take to get mad about? If you had a business, and it was your product, I'm sure you'd love to have all your "small products" blatantly ripped off...

It's the principles (or lack thereof) that is the problem, not the product... You cheap as it gets, no matter where it comes from is why corporate greed works. It's why all the products we buy now are made in some mud hut piss ant communist country, and why EVERYTHING nowadays is considered "disposable".

Quality is so poor, and the manufacturer is so hard to actually find, that it's easier to just through it away and get a chicom replacement.

I worked at Wal-Mart when I was a kid, and it breaks my heart what has happened to that company. When I was there, Sam Walton was still alive, and he was ADAMANT that everything in his store was made in America. When he died, it was like the share holders were released from their cages, and there went a proud American company in lieu of bigger profits. Sad, sad, day.... </div></div>


LMFAO ..... you did not just use "I used to work at Walmart" as your preferred sob story about buying "made in America" ..... LOL.

How can you complain about somebody copying something that isn't patented. If they didn't want anyone to copy it ... they should have paid for a patent. That's the American way. Oh, wait a minute, it wouldn't be worth patenting because ..... it's just a F@!king sandbag ...... LOL </div></div>

You still don't get it.... *sigh* I don't blame you though. You're just a classic example of the American consumer that is unable to look past their nose. You are actually the majority, where people who think the way I do are the minority.

Enjoy your chicom world, Mutt. You deserve it.... </div></div>

Yes JRose... You are the unfortunate minority outnumbered in a world of misled consumers with dissenting opinions. Of course it's so strange since the dissenting opinions on here seem to me the lesser of the two....
 
#209
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn!! Everyone sure has their panties in a wad lately.

First we have people getting all uptight and holy moly on "The BEAST" rifle from GAP, and now we actually have people defending Mr. Big Corporate USA STEALING from a small business, but it should be OK?!

Am I reading all this correctly?
</div></div>

Your not. The argument was that it's in fact not stealing as the product was un-patented. But then came the "Made in USA" mongers with their bashing of China and anything foreign. Next those throwing out that anyone who believed in Capitalism or made the statement "It's just business" is now immoral and unethical. I think one person called another person a poopie head. A random video that no one watched was tossed in. And now we're working on page 6 of arguing over a bag filled with material and the fact that a larger company caught on and mimicked it without asking for permission which they didn't need but everyone somehow believe they're entitled to.
 
#210
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Enjoy your chicom world, Mutt. You <span style="text-decoration: line-through">deserve</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">bought</span> it.... </div></div>
Boiling this down, it's about choice and if you believe that the choices one makes is a function of ones character, then it's about that as well.
</div></div>

See here's my problem. You and several others like Jrose can't seem to have the argument/discussion without attacking someone's character. Everything else you said would have been well worded and worth reading like several other posts made by others, had they not started it with an insult. And you can't peddle any BS that you were in fact trying to insult his character. If you want to insult the Character of Midway since they're action is the topic of discussion then by all means, but insinuating or flat out saying someone has no character because they disagree and with 5 pages of argument over a sandbag simply means that you can't help but go to insult because your argument is weak without it.
 
#211
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A random video that no one watched was tossed in. </div></div>

Not true. That video was great!
 
#212
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A random video that no one watched was tossed in. </div></div>

Not true. That video was great! </div></div>

I don't think the Aussie's were given fair representation... lol
 
#213
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

For you guys that keep screaming " It's just a F&*#king bag" Well one mans bag is another mans livelihood. You see a simple bag and I see money coming out of my pocket, or rather my daughters pocket, she makes all of our rear bags. So today it's just a bag, tomorrow what could it be. Where do you draw the line?

Broker here says that it's capitalism and that it should spur us to further innovate and come up with more and better products to set us apart. I'm afraid I don't see your reasoning at all. So I come up with another idea and someone with more exposure and a bigger advertising budget steals that idea too. Please explain how that helps anyone but the bigger company with no morals? If anyone thinks stealing an idea is capitalism then they're part of the problem that has gotten us where we are now.

For you guys that keep screaming "If he didn't want it stolen he should have patented it" You obviously have never done any research on patents and how much they cost, how long it takes to get one, or how much it takes to defend one once it's been infringed on.

When I started out I really worried about patenting my stuff and talked to several patent attorneys. I even had one who would have done a lot of the work at a reduced cost. In the end the advice I got from most of them was that a patent is only worth what you're willing to spend to defend it. I got to thinking about how many products I'd have to sell to have a lawyer send out a cease and desist letter. Since I barely had enough money to buy the materials I was making my products from I decided not to patent my products but to depend on the integrity of the community to make the choice to support us if or when our products were copied.

That's where we are today.

Here's a story that demonstrates how I think in my business. I had a guy ask me if we could make suppressor covers. I said you bet we can, although I hadn't made even one at the time. I figured it couldn't be that hard right. Then I remembered a comment I'd overheard at a match about a member who had designed a can cover. I called him up and asked him about his cover. He had developed a cover and had asked one of the better known can manufacturers at the time if they'd be interested in testing it out for him, which they said they would. They stole his design and started making covers with their name embroidered on them exactly like the prototype he'd given them to test and he never saw anything from it. Was what they did legal, yes it was because he never had them sign anything. Was it WRONG? yes it was because any thinking person could understand what they had done was steal his idea.

I said that I had some customers who were wanting covers and that I knew I could design one myself. Since you're a nice guy and got ripped off by these other guys why don't you let me make your design and I'll pay you a royalty on each one that I sell. I could have just started making a copy of his because, hey, he didn't patent it, it's legal to do it right. Sure it's legal, but it's not RIGHT. So, I paid him royalties for quite a while and eventually bought him out for a one time fee. I didn't have to do that either because there was no patent right? It didn't matter, we were friends, although at that point I'm not sure we'd even met in person yet, and in any case it was the RIGHT thing to do.

I've worked minimum 100 hour weeks for the last six and a half years building my little company up from just me to now my whole family has quit our jobs and are full time TAB GEAR. We also employee other contract sewers around the country to make some of our products.

I've been approached many times from companies who have offered to make my products over seas for a fraction of the cost of what I pay here. I could have done that and none of our customers would ever know the difference, except me, because I'm sure there are some over seas companies that turn out pretty nice quality work. I buy supplies from over twenty different companies who are also American owned companies who produce the supplies I use here in the USA. They would see me going overseas on their monthly production reports when the numbers were down. I'm not big enough right now that I make a huge difference in any of the companies but you get my point. If the numbers go down enough what happens? They lay people off and eventually go out of business if the numbers continue downward. My contract sewers would see it when I didn't place any more orders with them for work here and that starts the downward spiral there too.

I got a call the other day from a company who's first name is American. I won't name the whole name. The sell plastic and metal products. The sales guy asked if we would be interested in learning about their products? I'm always eager to have another supplier who I can support here. In the conversation about plastic buckles I asked him if they were made in the USA. He said they were not. I asked him if any of his metal products were made in the USA. He said they were not, nothing they carried was made in America. I asked him how they could justify using the name American in their name if they had not one thing that was made here? He had no answer for that and I told him that they had nothing to offer TAB GEAR.

You can try to throw the point of all this in the direction of hypocrites who shop at Wal-Mart, or who types on a keyboard made in China, or capitalism,or unions or our government, and you're getting away from the point. The point being that the whole economy is hurting, unemployment is high, people are losing jobs, and one big American company is stealing the ideas from three small American companies who are trying to support their families by living the American dream through hard work.

What I'm trying to do in my small part of the world is to support my family with my business while supporting as many American companies as possible by using their materials while turning out products with as high a quality as we can and asking a fair price.

It doesn't matter how much money Midway has collected in they're "round it up" campaign. That's nice an all but what they've done in this instance is steal, and there's no other way of putting it, the ideas of three small American companies, while trying to pass themselves off as just wanting to give the consumer a low cost option. What you have is numbers people sitting in offices who only care about the bottom line, not about the consequences of their actions. The consequences in this case is having a spotlight shown on what they've done to said small companies. With the internet, facebook, twitter, etc available to the consumer now days it is easy to express satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a service or product in a manner that many more people would not have had access to a short time ago.

Just for kicks I'd like to see my bag right next to Midways bag on their site. The description for my bag would read:

TAB GEAR llc. Rear bag, Made in the USA with pride by a small family owned business using American made materials . They have a lifetime warranty on any of their products, and the customer determines what that lifetime is. They'll be happy to talk to you any time about their products. $20.00 The extra $10.00 that you're spending will not be going to us at Midway it is to support the American worker who made the materials that went into this product.

Then right next to our bag will be the one Midway is now selling and the description would be:

Midway rear bag made over seas for the customer whose only concern is price and doesn't care where his products are made, or that they're made with inferior materials and of a lesser quality workmanship and no warranty. $10.00

I have faith, and maybe it's stupid on my part, that if the two were presented in that way that Midway would be surprised at how many of the American made bags would sell compared to the overseas bag.
 
#214
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

I'm of course on your side.

At the end of the day it's mates who look after each other... The community and people who appreciate and understand quality.

I hope your good reputation and solid business practices help you and your family out mate.
 
#215
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Enjoy your chicom world, Mutt. You <span style="text-decoration: line-through">deserve</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">bought</span> it.... </div></div>
Boiling this down, it's about choice and if you believe that the choices one makes is a function of ones character, then it's about that as well.
</div></div>

See here's my problem. You and several others like Jrose can't seem to have the argument/discussion without attacking someone's character. Everything else you said would have been well worded and worth reading like several other posts made by others, had they not started it with an insult. And you can't peddle any BS that you were in fact trying to insult his character. If you want to insult the Character of Midway since they're action is the topic of discussion then by all means, but insinuating or flat out saying someone has no character because they disagree and with 5 pages of argument over a sandbag simply means that you can't help but go to insult because your argument is weak without it.

</div></div>

Actually, I didn't insult anyone's character. I just speak bluntly, in real life and on the glorious web. I don't find anything I said as an attack on anyone's character, I see it as if Mutt didn't comprehend the point I tried to make in my last point, so I made myself a little clearer.


I guess I just need some sensitivity training.
 
#216
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I just need some sensitivity training.</div></div>

No you don't... Everyone just needs to mellow out some.
 
#218
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Enjoy your chicom world, Mutt. You <span style="text-decoration: line-through">deserve</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">bought</span> it.... </div></div>
Boiling this down, it's about choice and if you believe that the choices one makes is a function of ones character, then it's about that as well.
</div></div>

See here's my problem. You and several others like Jrose can't seem to have the argument/discussion without attacking someone's character. Everything else you said would have been well worded and worth reading like several other posts made by others, had they not started it with an insult. And you can't peddle any BS that you were in fact trying to insult his character. If you want to insult the Character of Midway since they're action is the topic of discussion then by all means, but insinuating or flat out saying someone has no character because they disagree and with 5 pages of argument over a sandbag simply means that you can't help but go to insult because your argument is weak without it.

</div></div>

If you think the choices you make are independent of your character then you're very naive. I didn't insult anyone, I merely pointed out that if you choose to reward Midway for their blatant rip-offs then you're no better than they are.

If making that logical observation makes my argument weak in your eyes then i can live that. From what you've posted, you've little clarity in your thinking such as it is.
 
#219
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

Broker, after reading your posts on here, I am convinced that it wouldn't matter how many sticks of dynamite were set off in your ears, you still wouldn't "get it". In case you haven't realized, allow me to spell it out for you.

You are doing a disservice to small businesses when you purchase counterfeited merchandise which takes money out of the hands of AMERICAN based businesses. When you or anyone else would rather spend your money on lesser quality shit to save a buck rather than support the little man locally, you are doing your part to wipe out the small vendors who make their living by going the extra mile.

Have you seen what happens to a small town when Walmart comes in? If you haven't, you definitely should. Before you say 'it creates jobs', it also destroys jobs and robs people of their livelihood because small businesses are forced to close their doors because China-Mart has come to town. MidwayUSA is doing the same thing. Oh, and for the record, you've assassinated your character all by yourself in this topic.

I guess you can count me in the minority of people who is willing to spend a little bit extra to keep my money and business right here in America.
 
#220
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

People that respect all that is good on Sniper's Hide will support the original developers of the product and be pissed at Midway.

Guys looking no further than their own personal wallet will buy Midway's product and defend it's obvious copying of the originator's design.

Which person you are has consequences throughout your own lives and the economic condition of our country.

Neither group will ever convince the other to change their opinion.

Each person must decide which person they are.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I only get to vote once every few years to steer this country's future. I can and do consciously vote with my money with every single purchase.

Both groups are forced to do the same.</span>
 
#221
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

First off, Tony, Stu and Steve I am sorry to see this happen to you guys. Seems we are a few of the last make it in America guys left.

I vote with my wallet.

My rear bags ar Redman or Triad made
My Rifle cover says TAB on it.
My ammo carriers say Triad or Redman
My mats are either TAB or Tactical Taylor
My slings are my own/TIS

These item may cost a little more but the small profit wont end up being used to make weapons pointed at the USA. Think about that with your wallet
 
#222
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

I really don't see what the big deal is here? A sandbag isn't any REVOLUTIONARY design. They have been around for decades. Just because their design's look like those other companies doesn't matter. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if the original maker of commercialized sand bags through a fit because <span style="font-weight: bold">they copied their design</span> but added a couple straps and other innovations. Its the same concept.

Don't get me wrong, <span style="font-weight: bold">my only sandbag is from TAB gear</span> and not a cheap knockoff. But my personal choice to invest in quality and community supporter is just that a CHOICE. My choice isn't any more morally right than someone just looking to put something under his rifle and looking for the best price. They have a different 'mission' and found a tool that fits his bill.

My 308 has an atlas bipod and my 22 thats used for plinking around has a cheap chinese knockoff of the Harris. Those two bipods don't compete against each other, they were meant for different markets. If my only choice for my $100 22 was $300 for an atlas, it just wouldn't have a bipod. <span style="text-decoration: underline">How would you like it if your only choice in cars was Mercedes Benz since they made the first car</span>. Ford is thought of as the first car manufacturer but the only thing ford did was invent mass production of automobiles(like midway in this situation).

<span style="font-weight: bold">I own a small business myself</span>, and my product isn't cheap. There are knockoff's for it that are literally 1/4 of the price that look ALMOST exactly the same. The point is though they don't work as well as ours and we have a little saying about that. Sure you can spend 1/4 of the price but it ends up really expensive because its nothing more than an expensive paperweight. The point is that the quality of effectiveness of the product should speak louder than "oh i thought of the idea first". If someone comes out with a product on the level of mine, I'll have to innovate again to make my product better.

Thats the base of capitalism and is supposed to be fundamental to America. All you guys are complaining about is fair competition. Nothing lasts forever, and that includes ideas and designs. There is a reason that patents expire, because after a certain time even if your item was different and great enough to be worth a patent, it becomes a part of the community and you can't ride the "i thought of that" train forever.

Long story short:
I can completely understand your frustration. But I don't think TAB or the other companies are directly threatened by this. It's aimed at a different market. Yes it will steal some sales, but thats why there is continued innovation and new products. This ISN'T a small business problem, this is a problem called competition. KODAK just filed for bankruptcy because they can't keep up anymore. If any business wants to be successful they have to continually innovate and reinvent themselves. Big business's are just as vulnerable as small ones and bankruptcies like that are a reminder. (become big enough and put in enough work and you might even get a government bailout during your fall
wink.gif
) I don't look forward to the day that someone puts out my product thats just as effective but for cheaper, but I know the day will come. My business's success will be based on whether It can adapt and offer something more or just give up.
 
#223
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

For the last fucking time I will try to explain this.(This is an overall statement and not directed at anyone, so take no offense)

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 20pt">It is not communism. It is not capitalism. It <span style="text-decoration: underline">IS</span> an attack on the Hide itself through it's vendors and sponsors. 3 sponsors! Anyone else find that suspicious?</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Once is coincidence. Twice is happenstance, and Three times is enemy action." -Ian Fleming</span>

Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH%2525255B1%2525255D%255B1%255D.jpg

 
#224
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

I purchase items from Midway regularly. I will continue to do so. I like the fact that they put codes up here on the hide. I like the fact that they put up millions for the NRA. Yes, that money did come from us but they didn't keep it in their pocket for profit.

That said, I support hide vendors like SKD, Triad, etc. Good stuff from good folks. I agree that a bag is not just a bag, but it is not a new and novel product. Midway does shooting mats, gun cases, etc. and no one is on here griping about that. In fact, I have seen positive feedback on many of their items.

I don't, however, understand that "boycott midway" nonsense that some folks here are advocating. Couple of questions.

1. Didn't Midway start out as a small business not unlike many of the vendors we see here on the hide? Do we believe in capitalism and the American way or only to the extent that it doesn't compete with other similar businesses? If you believe in capitalism, Midway is a great example of American capitalism at its finest. Using the existing global business environment to bring products to the consumer at a lower price.

2. The idea of a rear bag or similar item is not novel or unique. None of these small businesses mentioned here invented the idea. In fact, they copied, and improved on an existing design. Why are we not mad at them for copying someone else? After all, the Midway product is a copy of a copy of a copy.

3. How many other products are out there that we use everyday that are a copy, or a copy with slight changes of another design. Rail systems, stocks, stock pouches, etc. are all copies.

Not buying from Midway is your choice but harassing them and bugging them because they did the same thing (copy an existing product) that these small business did (copy an existing product), doesn't make sense. Will I support these small businesses, yes. Their product is superior in quality and features, but I will still happily buy from Midway.

LD
 
#225
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

Perhaps this is a good thing for TAB and crew. When I first started shooting I bought a Caldwells BiPod at Walmart - for the first 200 rounds it worked fine and then slowly started falling apart. I could go buy another one for $60, and do that every month or buy the more expensive Harrell's and have it last. I bought a Harrels.

Anyone buying these from Midway, and assuming they are truly inferior in quality, will start to have ripped seams, leaking sand, etc.. they will see the guy next to them with their TAB bag beat to hell and still intact. That guys next purchase will be a TAB bag and his word of mouth experience will help the TAB cause.

The more they sell, and if they are truly inferior, the more bags TAB will ultimately sell.


Some people buy once cry once.

others buy the cheap rings; then buy good rings. they buy a cheap bipod, then nice ones... They buy a cheap scope, then a S&B. and and and.

 
#226
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

I don't like poor quality gear regardless of its' country of origin. We learned that painful lesson in the 70's with the auto industry. That was our fault and it changed the dynamics of that industry forever. In my opinion we need to reestablish that made in the USA means something again, thus we should support these companies not because of their geographic location but because of the superior quality of their products. That's the same thing that's slowly bringing back our own car manufacturers.
 
#227
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess I just need some sensitivity training. </div></div>

Lmao... I would never go that far...
grin.gif
 
#228
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

For the "Midway gives to the shooting community" crowd, I don't really consider giving to the NRA exactly a productive way of giving to the shooting community. Not to get off topic but the NRA is and has sold us out, and does not promote the precision tactical style of competition at all. Also consider why they might give so much to something like the NRA, its called a tax write off.
 
#229
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Broker, after reading your posts on here, I am convinced that it wouldn't matter how many sticks of dynamite were set off in your ears, you still wouldn't "get it". In case you haven't realized, allow me to spell it out for you.

You are doing a disservice to small businesses when you purchase counterfeited merchandise which takes money out of the hands of AMERICAN based businesses. When you or anyone else would rather spend your money on lesser quality shit to save a buck rather than support the little man locally, you are doing your part to wipe out the small vendors who make their living by going the extra mile.

Have you seen what happens to a small town when Walmart comes in? If you haven't, you definitely should. Before you say 'it creates jobs', it also destroys jobs and robs people of their livelihood because small businesses are forced to close their doors because China-Mart has come to town. MidwayUSA is doing the same thing. Oh, and for the record, you've assassinated your character all by yourself in this topic.

I guess you can count me in the minority of people who is willing to spend a little bit extra to keep my money and business right here in America. </div></div>

No... I get your point just fine but disagree with it. You on the other hand along with others can't comprehend what I've said. So let me spell it out for you...

1. I never said I was buying Midways Products.
2. I never disagreed with it being unethical therefore immoral. I did however disagree with someone else stating I was unethical & immoral.
3. I never told anyone else for that fact to buy Midway products.
4. I said it was Capitalism and Business.
5. I never said anything about Wal*Mart.

Is there anything above that you can provide evidence to the contrary that I have stated? And I love the bit about assassinating my character because I don't agree with the mob here. Sorry, I'll try to conform better next time...
 
#230
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

I have to say, after taking the long time reading this thread all I can say is... "This is America right?". We have as a nation made the country of China rich and there's not much we can do about that now. Look at our import to export ratio to China if you disagree.

I see both sides of the coin here, but this is America. We have the freedom to do whatever the hell we want. Some will say “its just a bag filled with sand” and I would happen to agree with you on that. Others are going to say “I will just spend my money elsewhere”. At the end of the day, do whatever floats your boat.

But seriously I wonder for those who say you will go elsewhere, where are you going to go? Cheaper than dirt, brownells,…? This thread went from "Dont buy this product" to F- Midway. So where are you going to shop? I’m not being dumb, I really want to know where you shop? What are the alternatives? Where you go to get all of your reloading, shooting, and gunsmithing stuff. When I first got into reloading I shopped at multiple places and I noticed Midway’s high shipping charges. But once I factored in the fact that I didn’t have to pay for 2 or 3 different shipping charges from buying at different companies, I settled into Midway. It’s a one stop shop. This coupled with the fact that I don't want to pay 150% more for the same product in my local area, where else is a fella to go? If people have another one stop shop that isn’t mean old corporate America please let me know I will gladly change where I shop. But I have a feeling just like everything else, mean old corporate America is just about all we have. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about just sand bags here.
 
#231
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

What happened is very simple - a big corporation took somebody's else designs, copied them w/o making arrangements with the origilan developers and offered them for sale on a large scale. The end result is predictable - corporation will make more money, and other guys who initially introduced the products to market will make less money and can even go out of bisuness. It's a huge problem between these two parties.

End users, no matter if they can buy American made or can afford only Chinese made, are not really the ones who caused this problem in the first place. Even if a bunch of potential buyers join together and petition Midway sell to them cheap copies made in China, Midway should have made arrangements with developers to compensate them for using their designs, then order and bring in the copies. That would be a decent thing to do, although it would still hurt U.S. manufacturing sector in a long run. But it appears that none of this happened. It's a behavior of these big corporations like Midway which is in question. Looks like it does matter to a certain portion of SH members, which is good and gives some hope that U.S. will not go the way of Russia, which now lost most of both the manufacturing capabilites and people capable of creating technical innovation.
 
#232
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the "Midway gives to the shooting community" crowd, I don't really consider giving to the NRA exactly a productive way of giving to the shooting community. Not to get off topic but the NRA is and has sold us out, and does not promote the precision tactical style of competition at all. Also consider why they might give so much to something like the NRA, its called a tax write off. </div></div>

First of all, nothing given to the NRA is tax deductible. Second, NRA aside, Midway and the Potterfields give to other conservation and shooting sports organizations and they sponsor matches (Bianchi cup and some 3-gun I know because I picked up things from the prize table). True nothing may be specific to the "long range tactical" genre, but the fact is they still do support the shooting commmunity.

Last time I checked, Midway is also a hide sponsor and I see their ads in the forums and they have hide promotion codes.
 
#233
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Broker here says that it's capitalism and that it should spur us to further innovate and come up with more and better products to set us apart. I'm afraid I don't see your reasoning at all. So I come up with another idea and someone with more exposure and a bigger advertising budget steals that idea too. Please explain how that helps anyone but the bigger company with no morals? If anyone thinks stealing an idea is capitalism then they're part of the problem that has gotten us where we are now.
</div></div>

You don't see my reasoning? So your business model is to offer the exact same product until retirement in the hopes that no one would ever replicate, develop, or outdate it? Here’s what I did say...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Triad, Badger, Red Tac... I feel for you... but it's business and you all had to have known that sooner or later someone was going to replicate your product. We live in a competitive market. <span style="font-weight: bold">There's no legal remedy so do the next best thing... compete and offer more innovative and better products. </span>Calling Midway and berating some phone rep is pointless except if to make yourself feel better. If they were interested in moral or ethical solutions they wouldn't have copied your products, but they did. All the consumers shouting "Foul Play!" are ignorant to Capitalism and Business.
</div></div>

If you're going to expect larger corporations to be ethical, moral, or just then your lying to yourself. Success is overcoming adversity, not bitching about it and giving up because "someone with more exposure and a bigger advertising budget steals that idea too". I'll be the d!ck to say it and I'm sure you won't take it in the spirit it is meant...

Quit crying, get off your ass, go out there and beat them. If you asked everyone on here to post a link to your website tagged with keywords like Rear Bag, Shooting Rest, etc do you know what kind of SEO you could get? If you keep coming up with better more innovative products do you think people aren't going to watch YOU and wonder what YOU'LL have coming out next?
 
#234
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What happened is very simple - a big corporation took somebody's else designs, copied them w/o making arrangements with the origihan developers and offered them for sale on a large scale. The end result is predicatble - corporation will make more money, and other guys who initially introduced the products to market will make less money and can even go out of bisuness. It's a huge problem between these two parties.

End users, no matter if they can buy American made or can afford only Chinese made, are not really the ones who caused this problem in the first place. Even if a bunch of potential buyers join together and demand that Midway sell to them cheap copies made in China, Midway should have made arrangements with developers to compensate them for using their designs, then order and bring in the copies. It appears that none of this happened. It's a behavior of these big corporations like Midway which is in question. </div></div>
I think most of you are talking about morality issues on this and it looks like its probably the same people that are worst to get into business with. Can't seperate business and friendship, in the end everyone loses. Very recently I was screwed over by someone we worked with because I ASSUMED he wouldn't back stab us. I was wrong and was left wondering "why would he do this". In the end I learned from it and now would take greater precaution, this is business.

Keep in mind I don't endorse this type of thing. I wish that everything was kept fair and no one dicked anyone over.

But it seems none of the moral activists have answered the simple question that many of us posed. What separates these small business guys from midway? I don't know who sold rear bags first, but I can guarantee they were not the first. So why is it not looked down on that they copied the general design without paying to the first person selling socks with beads in it? They both did the SAME thing, they saw a design, improved on it in their own way and then resold it. These guys added quality and small features, while midway reduced quality to lower price. One side isn't RIGHT. If there was absolute's then we would have one rifle as a choice because it was absolute best for long range,short range,tactical,police work,hunting, and anti aircraft.
 
#235
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

Broker, the mistake you made is attempting to hold a rational discussion in the middle of an emotional fray. When you do this all that comes out is "hey, this guy isn't frothing at the mouth properly! He must be against us!" No one wants to objectively evaluate the strength of the mobs argument, they want to get along with the lynching they showed up for. Just because you are able to dispassionately and critically discuss something in a manner contrary to your personal feelings on the matter doesn't mean you will be responded to in kind. My advice, and trust me this is speaking from experience here, is to say what you feel you need to say in the name of getting rational thought "on the record" then just sit back, relax, and let the iCrucifiction take care of itself. This is the internet and so long as you keep trying to have the last word there will be an unending supply of people willing to step up to the stoning, even if you do manage to convince others enough that they step away (though probably they'll just leave when they get bored with your carcass.) You could spend the rest of your life arguing this one thread and you will never convince a quorum of the internet that you're right.
 
#236
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think most of you are talking about morality issues on this and it looks like its probably the same people that are worst to get into business with.</div></div>

Who are the same people? Steve, Tony, me?

 
#237
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Broker, the mistake you made is attempting to hold a rational discussion in the middle of an emotional fray. When you do this all that comes out is "hey, this guy isn't frothing at the mouth properly! He must be against us!" No one wants to objectively evaluate the strength of the mobs argument, they want to get along with the lynching they showed up for. Just because you are able to dispassionately and critically discuss something in a manner contrary to your personal feelings on the matter doesn't mean you will be responded to in kind. My advice, and trust me this is speaking from experience here, is to say what you feel you need to say in the name of getting rational thought "on the record" then just sit back, relax, and let the iCrucifiction take care of itself. This is the internet and so long as you keep trying to have the last word there will be an unending supply of people willing to step up to the stoning, even if you do manage to convince others enough that they step away (though probably they'll just leave when they get bored with your carcass.) You could spend the rest of your life arguing this one thread and you will never convince a quorum of the internet that you're right. </div></div>
Words from the wise right there!
 
#238
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

You have to admit, large portions of this thread would make great "We are the 99%" posters. I wonder if whoever came up with that little marketing gimmick is being paid royalties...
 
#239
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think most of you are talking about morality issues on this and it looks like its probably the same people that are worst to get into business with.</div></div>

Who are the same people? Steve, Tony, me?

</div></div>
I might have misspoke on that and left it open to being interpreted wrong. It quoted what you said but was not meant towards you.

so no I did not mean you guys. As I said earlier, My only bags, come from one of you guys! You guys make a great product and I'm sure are GREAT to do business with..

I meant that it's a known thing that it is not a good idea to mix business with friendship because at the end MOST of the time it doesnt end well. So getting in business with someone that mix's those is likely a bad idea.

Either way, I've said my OPINION on the subject, and I'm done. Carry on crowd!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have to admit, large portions of this thread would make great "We are the 99%" posters. I wonder if whoever came up with that little marketing gimmick is being paid royalties...
</div></div>
The funny part is I was thinking the same thing. This post does alot more bad than good for the little guy, because midway probably just saw a surge in sales of this product. While most people had no idea these cheaper alternatives existed before, and now they do....
 
#240
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

You're correct that friendship and business may not work all the time. However, respect between business partners works. Midway showed no respect to these 3 guys, which I take as a personal offense, although it didn't happen to me personally. May be I'm too old fashined, but I'm not going to change.

 
#241
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

If Red Tac, Tab and Triad pass out discounts to all the "I'm never buying from Midway again" crowd, then I'll be impressed.

The funny thing is, this is a bash Midway thread .... which is a sponsor. So, what insentive does that give me to become a sponsor of this site???

I just have one last thing to say ..... why don't you all pitch in and pay for Red Tac, Tab and Triad to patent thier stuff .... and continue to pay twice as much for a SAND BAG. Then, no one will copy it and you will have supported your favorite vendor. Then I would really be impressed.
 
#242
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doubled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps this is a good thing for TAB and crew. When I first started shooting I bought a Caldwells BiPod at Walmart - for the first 200 rounds it worked fine and then slowly started falling apart. I could go buy another one for $60, and do that every month or buy the more expensive Harrell's and have it last. I bought a Harrels.

Anyone buying these from Midway, and assuming they are truly inferior in quality, will start to have ripped seams, leaking sand, etc.. they will see the guy next to them with their TAB bag beat to hell and still intact. That guys next purchase will be a TAB bag and his word of mouth experience will help the TAB cause.

The more they sell, and if they are truly inferior, the more bags TAB will ultimately sell.


Some people buy once cry once.

others buy the cheap rings; then buy good rings. they buy a cheap bipod, then nice ones... They buy a cheap scope, then a S&B. and and and.

</div></div>
I completely agree with this. For Midway to sell those bags at those prices they have to be cheaply made. Whoever buys those bags will ultimately end up buying again, but this time from one of the quality manufacturers.
 
#243
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

Midway is no more a business partner to these guys then Exxon Mobile is to the few small independent station owners that are left. To expect differently is unfortunately to fail every time.
As to why they would continue to be a sponsor, this does not alter their business model. They will sell whatever turns a profit. I imagine Midway appreciates the product launch this thread provided.
 
#244
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

This thread is ridiculous. I don't care for Midway for other reasons, but this is so childish.

Nobody "stole" anything. Sandbags are not a revolutionary idea. I've seen plenty of homemade ones over the years. If there were a huge R&D expense to any of the companies listed here, I'd probably laugh.

Complaining about being "cheated" or your product "stolen" from you does not make me want to do business with you. It makes you sound as though you're entitled---kind of like the Occupy brats.

This is how capitalism works. People that want a "high quality sandbag" will buy whatever they see as best. Others will buy the chi-com one. I doubt it will cut into anybody's business. If it does, then that's the way the cookie crumbles. If anybody is upset about their product being "stolen", they should have patented it. Otherwise, its their job to produce the best product, provide the best service, at the best price to earn business.

While I hate Midway for other reasons, this is no reason for me to. Nor is it a reason to get ugly and cuss, swear, and thump my chest. MidwayUSA has provided a ton of cash to funnel back into the sport we all love.

I will personally continue to buy the best products I can afford. No matter if it says Tab or Midway on it.

And for you guys that get angry when people buy Chinese rather than American, did you consider people simply want the most bang for their buck? What contribution have people made to pricing American labor out of the market? Are you willing to take less pay to keep jobs American? Are you willing to do with less? I don't know about you guys, but I know lots of guys barely getting buy and if they can save $10 on a bag that works 95% as well, they will. I cannot blame them for it.
 
#245
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Broker, the mistake you made is attempting to hold a rational discussion in the middle of an emotional fray. When you do this all that comes out is "hey, this guy isn't frothing at the mouth properly! He must be against us!" No one wants to objectively evaluate the strength of the mobs argument, they want to get along with the lynching they showed up for. Just because you are able to dispassionately and critically discuss something in a manner contrary to your personal feelings on the matter doesn't mean you will be responded to in kind. My advice, and trust me this is speaking from experience here, is to say what you feel you need to say in the name of getting rational thought "on the record" then just sit back, relax, and let the iCrucifiction take care of itself. This is the internet and so long as you keep trying to have the last word there will be an unending supply of people willing to step up to the stoning, even if you do manage to convince others enough that they step away (though probably they'll just leave when they get bored with your carcass.) You could spend the rest of your life arguing this one thread and you will never convince a quorum of the internet that you're right. </div></div>

I'll get bored eventually, lol. I'm working my post count to 1000 so I can sell some used tires on here...
 
#246
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the integrity of the community
</div></div>

Wasn't too long ago that this thread wouldn't have generated a full page of responses and not a one of them would have opposed the OP. It's a shame how things change.
 
#247
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you seen what happens to a small town when Walmart comes in? If you haven't, you definitely should. Before you say 'it creates jobs', it also destroys jobs and robs people of their livelihood because small businesses are forced to close their doors because China-Mart has come to town. MidwayUSA is doing the same thing. Oh, and for the record, you've assassinated your character all by yourself in this topic.

I guess you can count me in the minority of people who is willing to spend a little bit extra to keep my money and business right here in America. </div></div>

That decision is for the consumers, not you. They know what they want.

You might be the only protectionist left. If I have my way, you will be.

Like I said earlier:

This thread is the reason why everyone should be required to take a class in microeconomics in order to graduate high school.
 
#249
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, this isn't a "buy USA" issue. This is a "don't buy stolen ideas" issue. </div></div>

Can't own an idea, so you can't steal one. Can't steal something that isn't property.
 
#250
Re: DO NOT BUY these items...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, this isn't a "buy USA" issue. This is a "don't buy stolen ideas" issue. </div></div>

Can't own an idea, so you can't steal one. Can't steal something that isn't property. </div></div>

But you can show a company that it's business model is bullshit, by refusing to buy their products.

That's what this topic has been about. Supporting the Hide vendors that had their designs stolen from Midway. Yes, Midway did do it, if not then, and if a beanbag is so simple to make then why can't they come up with their own concept? The simple answer is laziness, and corporate greed. Yes, there is really no legal recourse because of a lack of a legal method of patent, but the option to show that it was a flawed idea is available to the consumer who has this knowledge available to them.

There is way too much talk of capitalism and communism, and global economics.

It's simple dirty business, and how many people are going to want to sell their products now through midway without suspicion whispering in their ear, of a possible backstab?
 
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