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Do the pros use stainless steel pin/wet tumble or Dry Tumble?
- Thread starter mjwilcox38
- Start date
Use your best judgement. Again, this is brass that went from the gun to the box, not onto the ground. If there was dirt on it I would tumble it. I just leave the carbon on the neck and everything is fine. How much build up are you expecting in the dies? Walnut dust probably builds up faster in dies than random carbon.
There's no measurable difference with the seated primers between cleaned primer pockets and uncleaned primer pockets. The Accuracy One gage I use shows no meaningful difference.
Cool. Thanks for the info. Just trying to get an idea of how clean I really want to get it and so this is helpful. I am currently trying a few different variations in the ultra sonic cleaner and I think with a run through there then tumble after sizing for 15 min I will be happy with it and save a little time. Thanks
Aw shit.......its been peaceful around here during you absence......... GO BACK TO SLEEP .....you're not " appreciated " nor as smart as you make out to be....smartass does not equal smart.....hint
OH MY GAWD.............roflmao........at least he hasn't had the ignore button smashed on him for over a year, like you ..........yet.......and don't go feeling satisfied because of my response.to this......... This shit was too damn ironic to go unmentioned
I like SS pin wet tumbling as it completely cleans the primer pocket, in and outside the case with the least effort. Most loading I do is for auto loaders so the brass gets dirty, and I dont like handling dirty brass during the prep inspection stage for a multitude of reasons.
Wet rumble without pins. No more than 20-30 mins or you risk peening the necks. Some carbon will stay in neck, which is a good thing...don't have to lube Inside of necks for mandrel.
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I ask after reading this and trying to wrap my head around it? How I understand what information is presented above that it only does so to a very thin outer layer, while the inside remains unchanged.
Is this enough to be detrimental? If so how have you come to this conclusion?
The risk? The risk is you have oversized case mouths that cant feed in a trimmer or a sizing die. If you leave them in to long, you run the risk of ruining the brass.
Here is an example. I was cleaning 500pc of 6.5cm Lapua in the tumbler. Had it set for 30 minutes and went upstairs. The timer broke and when I came down the next morning, all the necks were peened. Since they were already pretty much trimmed to min length, I had to trim them about .010-.015 under that. But since the necks were peened, they would not slide over the case pilot on henderson. So I had to hand ream 500 cases and cut enough out of the inside so it could fit over the pilot so the henderson could cut the peen off the otherside and chamfer the case mouth. This took many many hours and some carpel tunnel syndrome later.
Also seen this start with some alpha brass after being in there for a little over an hour.
Its not worth the risk, and not needed to leave them in there more than 20-30 minutes. They get more than clean enough and your brass does not risk getting damaged.
There is zero reason to use pins. I started using them like most before I realized its easier, quicker and more effective to just use water and something like Brass Juice or Boretech Brass Cleaner.View attachment 8076378
Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP
View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.
I ask after reading this and trying to wrap my head around it? How I understand what information is presented above that it only does so to a very thin outer layer, while the inside remains unchanged.
Is this enough to be detrimental? If so how have you come to this conclusion?
Having sparly perfectly clean brass is not needed. Hell there are national and world class f-class shooters who dont even clean their cases. Its a waste of time and I would argue having some carbon in the case mouth actually helps with sizing.
Never run into this issue, personally. I don't understand how it (edit-a .6 grain ss pin)can over size the case mouths.
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For shitloads of 9mm, and all other blaster ammo, I wet tumble with SS pins, it's excellent for that. I've done it for tens of thousands of cases and will continue to do it because even crusty disgusting cases come out brand new.
I have a brass dryer (which just seems to be a food dehydrator with a Frankford Arsenal sticker on it) and even put a mop sink in my garage, all to make the whole wet tumbling process as easy as possible.
For about 2 years I tried all kinds of shit: lots of water, little water, no pins, half pins, lots of pins, tennis balls in the tank, foam in the tank, slowed down the tumbler with a variac, everything out there and then some... all in the name of trying to find a way to be able to wet tumble my precision rifle cases WITHOUT it fucking up and peening the mouths of my cases. Nope. Once the brass starts to accumulate multiple wet tumbling cycles on it, the peened mouths (and tell-tale "lip") appear.
After listening to a Morgun King podcast where he says he dry tumbles (most of the time he doesn't even clean his brass before sizing), and a few other podcasts with other PRS pros, all of whom dry-tumbled their brass... it finally occurred to me to maybe at least try switching to dry tumbling my precision rifle cases, just to see what would happen?
No more peened case mouths.
I have a brass dryer (which just seems to be a food dehydrator with a Frankford Arsenal sticker on it) and even put a mop sink in my garage, all to make the whole wet tumbling process as easy as possible.
For about 2 years I tried all kinds of shit: lots of water, little water, no pins, half pins, lots of pins, tennis balls in the tank, foam in the tank, slowed down the tumbler with a variac, everything out there and then some... all in the name of trying to find a way to be able to wet tumble my precision rifle cases WITHOUT it fucking up and peening the mouths of my cases. Nope. Once the brass starts to accumulate multiple wet tumbling cycles on it, the peened mouths (and tell-tale "lip") appear.
After listening to a Morgun King podcast where he says he dry tumbles (most of the time he doesn't even clean his brass before sizing), and a few other podcasts with other PRS pros, all of whom dry-tumbled their brass... it finally occurred to me to maybe at least try switching to dry tumbling my precision rifle cases, just to see what would happen?
No more peened case mouths.
I don't wet tumble very often and when I do, any peeing of the case mouths are not an issue for me as I 3-way trim my brass all my brass every time as my last step in my prep process.
yeah now my trimmer. That messes up the case mouth requiring a chamfer and deburr
Is there a specific type of rice you use for cleaning your brass? And how long do you tumble for?
Read the Prlimal Rights article on tumbling with rice. There is a link to Amazon. It is a medium grain sushi rice. I only tumble to get the sizing lube off. A lot of times I will put them in before bed and pull them when I wake up. I have used as little as 1 hour before and that was fine as well.
DO NOT use long grain white rice; it'll get stuck in flash holes and not fun to remove them. Use medium grain white rice; a few will hang up in the LRP pockets, but easy enough to get out.
My brass never gets ejected into dirt or mud, so they don't get very dirty. After depriming, I anneal my brass then use 000 steel wool to remove the oxidation layer left behind on the neck and shoulder (just 2-3 twists). I use Imperial Sizing Wax for lube, so after sizing I tumble in the rice to remove the lube. Typically, I only run the tumbler for ~30 minutes and the result looks like the picture of brass in the blue box below. If I run it for a long time (like 2 hrs), the brass looks like the other picture below (both pics are the same brass):
Wet tumble with pins, size, clean lube with wet tumble in lemishine and Zip wax car wash. With Zip wax car wash and mandrel sizing, I went to single digit ES’s over leaving carbon in the necks for lube. The wash with wax keeps the neck slick consistently. FYI, carbon is harder than your mandrel, so over time, carbon in the necks wear your mandrel down (no more consistency). Kind of like decapping on a good press and letting the carbon fall on the press shaft. Wears it down.
My lapua palma brass necks look just like that after 4 reloads.
I will size with just a lee collet neck die for 4 reloads and at that point just start to feel restistence on the bolt.
Then clean in walnut media and full length resize.
The bass after a tumble in walnut looks much brighter and cleaner than any new brass ive ever bought.
Pic below is after 4 reloads without cleaning then tumbled in walnut before FL sizing and carbon still in the necks.
I start with dry media in a vibratory tumble for approximately one hour. Then I decap. Then I wet tumble with pins in dish soap for 40 mins, rinse, and dry in warm oven. Next, I dry tumble again in rice for 1 hour to get the water spots off. I then resize. Next, I clean the sizing lube off in an ultrasonic cleaner (40 mins) with lemishine. Rinse and back to the oven to dry and finally back to another dry tumbler with new walnut media for the water spots. In total my brass spends 9 hours in various cleaners. I use three pounds of dry media, twenty five gallons of water, two vibratory cleaners, one ultrasonic cleaner, one wet tumbler, and an oven to get my brass spotless in the most efficient method I’ve found by researching hundreds of years of metallic cartridge loading information.
Mock me if you must but extensive testing with my chronograph shows this method produces the lowest ES/SD ammo as long as sample size is kept smaller than 5. It really is all about having perfectly clean brass.
Holy shit you had me going for a minute.
Me too, reminded me of the FB precision rifle groups
Lots of clowns on FB in the precision rifle world
Having a really small sample size is key to believing everything you think.
Surprised I have not seen more people suggest the method I've since switched to: Wet tumble no pins, case prep, wet tumble no pins to get the lube off, then finish off with a round of corn cob in the tumbler with polish. Helps shine up the brass a little more, but more importantly it seems to help get rid of the sticky necks I hated when I first wet tumbled years ago. I've been through so many variations over the years and stopped wet tumbling for at least 5 until coming back and trying again without pins this go around.
I posted this thread because I was curious why I never saw wet tumblers in youtube load development from f class shooters. It looks like everyone has their method and there is no definitive answer. More opinions than anything.
Has anyone tested wet tumble vs dry and documented gains or loses with each process?
I may try wet tumble with pins then case prep, then remove lube with rice.
Has anyone tested wet tumble vs dry and documented gains or loses with each process?
I may try wet tumble with pins then case prep, then remove lube with rice.
Dry tumble here. Keeping it simple, and it works for me.
First step in my brass prep is putting my brass into a normal Lymans dry tumbler with walnut/corn. I leave the spent primers in. Decap after i take them out. I recently stopped cleaning the primer pockets of the carbon build up. I did try dry tumbling after decapping, but removing the dry media from the primer pockets was a pita.
I do use lanolin+alcohol for resizing lube, but instead of chucking back into the dry tumbler, i put all the lubed/resized brass into a container of acetone to get it all out. Works for me, and they come out dry and clean. YMMV.
First step in my brass prep is putting my brass into a normal Lymans dry tumbler with walnut/corn. I leave the spent primers in. Decap after i take them out. I recently stopped cleaning the primer pockets of the carbon build up. I did try dry tumbling after decapping, but removing the dry media from the primer pockets was a pita.
I do use lanolin+alcohol for resizing lube, but instead of chucking back into the dry tumbler, i put all the lubed/resized brass into a container of acetone to get it all out. Works for me, and they come out dry and clean. YMMV.
Awesome results you have there. Thank you for the advice.
Sounds retarded and a complete waste of time.
These clowns out here picking out corn cob and rice instead of shooting is sad, but hilarious at the same time.
Maybe it is a waste of time, but I do not like bringing in filthy brass into the house with small kids who like to hang out in my reloading room. I don't do it for any performance reasons, but merely to limit the filth that comes into the house and I don't love the feel of seating on strictly wet tumbled brass. Bulk loading on the 1100 it really makes the effort much easier and less sticking noticed.
Honestly I never found the ultrasonic particularly useful for cleaning brass. Too small of batches and not fast enough compared to the larger batches I typically run. I have never measured this so I honestly cannot comment on the work hardening part.
I understand the concern but disagree with logic. You can put dirty brass even with primer directly in wet tumbler. Then deprime, size and clean a 2nd time to get off lube and knock crug out of primer pocket.
I would be more concerned with media dust everywhere, breathing that shit than dirty lead water that goes down a drain and is not in the air.
You must live in a tiny apartment ? Husband allergic to dust ?
I used vibratory cleaners for my first decade or so of reloading, with walnut media and then corncob. Switched to wet tumbling when we moved mostly because I didn't want the dust in the garage in the path of travel for my small kids. I also have a few sets of dies that leave pretty gnarly vertical scratches in case necks, I suspect the dies were scored over time by residual abrasive from the walnut media. Hasn't happened to any more dies since going to wet tumbling, which admittedly takes a little more time with the rinse cycle.
Cleaning lube off is the biggest pain for me, I'm usually doing batches of 50, but still wouldn't miss that 15 minutes with paper towels, cue tips and iso.
Cleaning lube off is the biggest pain for me, I'm usually doing batches of 50, but still wouldn't miss that 15 minutes with paper towels, cue tips and iso.
Not scientific method study, but yes, anecdotally. I started off using dirty brass that was never cleaned. I knew very little about reloading. I got sub moa groups and even some good shooting varmint rifles that would shoot half minute to 500 yards. Then I wet tumbled with pins, groups went to shit (1 moa plus, some much plus). I saw threads about sticky necks and bought a vibratory tumbler and start using rice. Back to good groups.
For precision, wet tumbling sucks. I have seen some guys claim they get good results after making it a science. It is also a pain in the ass to deal with wet cases and the possibility of shooting a pin down a $1k barrel.
If you want to load tromped on range brass, go for it, but I won't do it for anything that needs to shoot better than minute of ipsc at 50 yards.
What people tumble with is (largely) personal preference. Each method has their own pros and cons.
Just pick a method and learn the best ways to use it, and deal with the cons of each.
Personally, I wet tumble. Unless the cases are extremely dirty, I don't even use pins anymore. Just some lemishine and some Maguir's carwash with synthetic wax. 30-45mins and I'm done. Toss them on an old clean cookie sheet and into the oven for 10-20 mins on "warm". Much easier (for me) than the loud, noisy, time consuming vibratory tumbler. Plus, without pins, I can cram 200 cases in my Thumler B with no problem, so processing a lot of bulk brass isn't so much of a chore.
As an old crusty Gunner CWO told me once..."You gotta be smarter than the gear you're working on". Pick your method, and understand it.
I could see no pins being okay with a good way and time to dry brass. I don't have to listen to the tumbler. It is in the basement away from everything, and I am half deaf. Does getting rid of the pins cure the sticky neck issue?
For when I load F class.
No tumbling. Hot soapy water, rinse and dry. Just to keep my dies clean.
Carbon in the neck is your friend.
That being said, I will tumble AR and pistol brass that gets really dirty.
No tumbling. Hot soapy water, rinse and dry. Just to keep my dies clean.
Carbon in the neck is your friend.
That being said, I will tumble AR and pistol brass that gets really dirty.
Do what works for you, and allows you to get the best consistency.
If you are wet tumbling and getting peened necks, sticky necks, or shooting pins through your rifle YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. But if doing it right is too much thought, time or trouble for you, don't do it.
Sticky necks, I'm assuming, is you referring to erratic neck tension caused by the necks fusing with the copper jacket, correct? I haven't had that issue, but I always clean, then anneal, and then FL resize and expand case necks (I use an inline seater die, so expanding them is needed). The neck expander roughs the inside neck enough to prevent any bullet fusing, as well as sets a moderate neck tension (most FL dies over size the necks IME).
As to being half deaf, I am too now (literally, complete right side). That being said, I don't like being around loud, constant noise without ear pro. I only have one functioning ear left, so I protect it, and am very self conscious about exposing it to loud noises over long periods of time. I do run a vibratory tumbler on occasion, but that's when I'm processing a couple thousand 9mm cases, and need the volume (no pun intended). All my pistol cases get run through a Dillon with an Autodrive (see video below), so I can live with a few that have clogged flash holes, since the Dillon punches that crap out as it goes through the case prep process. Precision rifle cases get wet tumbled. But that's just me.
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