SS Wet Tumbling: Chips vs Pins

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I am also going to try just using media and put it in my thumblers and let it roll dry vs a vibratory . It's a lot less noisy and will hold a lot and easier to pour stuff out of and it seals up so the dust and nasty stuff shouldn't be an issue. Anyone else ever tried that?

 

[MTRecon]

Long ago I had a rock tumbler and used dry media. It worked.

Then I got a RCBS Sidewinder rotary. With it I switched to water. Using either the RCBS liquid media or just Dawn.

9mm acted as it's own media and came out shiny but would not clean the inside or the primer pockets. I mixed 556 and 45 ACP together and the 556 would clean the inside of the 45s.

It wasn't until I got pin media that I experienced cleaning of the primer pockets.

I remember RCBS doing testing of the rotary to see what would happen with prolonged tumbling. I don't recall the hours they ran it straight. It eventually ruined the brass. I can't imagine anyone tumbling for that long.

I figure the primer pockets will loosen from firing long before tumbling has had enough time to harm the brass.

 

[lariat]

I have been thinking this through regarding the hardness of the two alloys we are talking about in this thread. Stainless is harder than brass (both measured in HRB)

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/#:~:text=Using%20Rockwell%20hardness%20standards%20%28.062%E2%80%B3x100kg%2C%20Rockwell%20%E2%80%9CB%E2%80%9D%29%2C%20the,Winchester%20223%20%3D%2069%20Remington%20%E2%80%9CR-P%E2%80%9D%20%3D%2049

"LC 2008 = 96
Lapua 223 Match = 86
Winchester 223 = 69
Remington “R-P” = 49"

Annealed Stainless is generally around 88-96.

The stainless obviously works, but like others have mentioned - run it and get it out once its cleaned. It appears LC and Lapua would handle long cleaning times better. Granted its not something to lose sleep over, but that Remington brass is significantly softer than the annealed SS.

But I'm still going to go through my scrap bin and see what I have that can fit this task and test out some other forms of steel.

 

[912173]

For what it's worth, I kept reducing my ss tumble times until I ended up at 30 min with hot soapy water. I also do 15 min to remove sizing lube. The brass aren't brand new looking but they are plenty clean for my purposes. I might experiment with taking the pins out as I keep eliminating unnecessary steps and time from my routine.

 

[straightshooter1]

For what it's worth, I kept reducing my ss tumble times until I ended up at 30 min with hot soapy water. I also do 15 min to remove sizing lube. The brass aren't brand new looking but they are plenty clean for my purposes. I might experiment with taking the pins out as I keep eliminating unnecessary steps and time from my routine.

30 min. is the max time I wet tumble using hot water, Dawn and LemiShine. . . .and I did away with using any SS pins (unless mud or dirt has gotten into the cases).

For fun, I just used that hot solution on some .308 brass that never touched the ground in a 2 gallon bucket and swirled the cases around for a minute or two. They actually cleaned up quite nicely. For dirty brass that had been annealed, that oxidation film that occurs, cleaned nicely too (though not quite as good).

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

30 min. is the max time I wet tumble using hot water, Dawn and LemiShine. . . .and I did away with using any SS pins (unless mud or dirt has gotten into the cases).

For fun, I just used that hot solution on some .308 brass that never touched the ground in a 2 gallon bucket and swirled the cases around for a minute or two. They actually cleaned up quite nicely. For dirty brass that had been annealed, that oxidation film that occurs, cleaned nicely too (though not quite as good).

Yeah just hot water with the usual stuff (dawn, lemishine, and a little simple green) swirled around in a bucket a few minutes does a lot.

 

[Yondering]

I have been thinking this through regarding the hardness of the two alloys we are talking about in this thread. Stainless is harder than brass (both measured in HRB)

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/#:~:text=Using%20Rockwell%20hardness%20standards%20%28.062%E2%80%B3x100kg%2C%20Rockwell%20%E2%80%9CB%E2%80%9D%29%2C%20the,Winchester%20223%20%3D%2069%20Remington%20%E2%80%9CR-P%E2%80%9D%20%3D%2049

"LC 2008 = 96
Lapua 223 Match = 86
Winchester 223 = 69
Remington “R-P” = 49"

Annealed Stainless is generally around 88-96.

The stainless obviously works, but like others have mentioned - run it and get it out once its cleaned. It appears LC and Lapua would handle long cleaning times better. Granted its not something to lose sleep over, but that Remington brass is significantly softer than the annealed SS.

But I'm still going to go through my scrap bin and see what I have that can fit this task and test out some other forms of steel.

Those hardness numbers don't really mean what you are thinking in this context.

a) brass work hardens, and the surface will become harder from peening (whether from stainless pins, tumbling impacts, shot peening, whatever)
and
b) the hardness difference between stainless and brass is not the only measure, or even the most important measure, of how much the stainless might damage the brass. Sharpness of any edges on the pins, and amount of any abrasive material (including dirt and primer residue) involved carry more weight.

Along with that, generally speaking a softer material can often wear through a harder material if any abrasive material is involved. The abrasive (again, could be dirt/dust, primer residue, etc) can imbed into the softer material so that it wears into the harder material. I've seen this a number of times in my professional career with various types of durability tests, where even a plastic wire loom can wear into/through steel and aluminum parts. Keep in mind this is looking at wear/abrasion, not impact damage where the roles between hard/soft materials align more with what most people expect.

 

[Yondering]

Thought I'd bring this one back to life and show you guys something I tried and see what yall had to say about it. I got some of these to wet tumble in. I was looking for something that would be easier and not fit into case mouths and found these. They definitely worked well but they leave a more Matt finish vs shiny. I tried a few different batches od Hornady brass vs trying my good brass.

I actually forgot about the first batch and let me go way longer than I'd ever planned to, which was about 1.5hrs. So obviously they got clean and all.

The next batch I ran for 15 min and they got clean as well. Actually look the same.

Any thoughts on this potentially damaging my brass or thinning it too much over time? I don't know that I could measure any difference without it being over many many cleanings. Here's what they look like

You probably haven't seen it yet because your ceramic media is new, but the issue with running that dry is that it'll get clogged up pretty quickly with fouling and brass particles. Same issue as using a fine ceramic sharpening stone dry; that's why water or light oil is used to carry away the material being abraded.

As for your other question about just putting ordinary tumbling media in a Thumblers instead of vibrating tumbler - it'll sort of work, just will be a lot less effective and won't really cut down on dust the way you're hoping.
If you just use cleaned corn cob with Dillon case polish, you won't have any dust to deal with. Walnut creates a lot of dust as the pieces break down, and the people getting dust with corn cob are putting the wrong cleaning products in there. Dust is really easy to eliminate if you follow that basic guideline.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

You probably haven't seen it yet because your ceramic media is new, but the issue with running that dry is that it'll get clogged up pretty quickly with fouling and brass particles. Same issue as using a fine ceramic sharpening stone dry; that's why water or light oil is used to carry away the material being abraded.

As for your other question about just putting ordinary tumbling media in a Thumblers instead of vibrating tumbler - it'll sort of work, just will be a lot less effective and won't really cut down on dust the way you're hoping.
If you just use cleaned corn cob with Dillon case polish, you won't have any dust to deal with. Walnut creates a lot of dust as the pieces break down, and the people getting dust with corn cob are putting the wrong cleaning products in there. Dust is really easy to eliminate if you follow that basic guideline.

Well the ceramic getting clogged does make sense. I hadn't thought of that but I could see it. I haven't tried it dry yet but I can see that happening over multiple cycles. If I use the same ceramic balls and do wet sometimes and dry other times, that would greatly help the ceramic from getting clogged then right?

I really don't care for vibratory tumbler because every one I've ever seen is very loud and I've not found anything that didn't have dust. I've not used dillon case polish either but I will get some and try it with corn Cobb. Any specific corn Cobb that you know of that does much better with dust?

Honestly the ceramic with dawn, hot water , lemishine, and a little Mr clean or whatever works so well and so quickly, I may just keep doing that. It's super fast and works great

 

[nikonNUT]

Well the ceramic getting clogged does make sense. I hadn't thought of that but I could see it. I haven't tried it dry yet but I can see that happening over multiple cycles. If I use the same ceramic balls and do wet sometimes and dry other times, that would greatly help the ceramic from getting clogged then right?

I really don't care for vibratory tumbler because every one I've ever seen is very loud and I've not found anything that didn't have dust. I've not used dillon case polish either but I will get some and try it with corn Cobb. Any specific corn Cobb that you know of that does much better with dust?

Honestly the ceramic with dawn, hot water , lemishine, and a little Mr clean or whatever works so well and so quickly, I may just keep doing that. It's super fast and works great

Can't say if wet and dry cycles will work other that all the vibratory deburring machines I have used (think big as a hot tub and knocking off welding slag) have a row of low pressure sprayers that alway keep the media wet. The water drains off, is flitered by settling, and the water is syphoned off the top to repeat the process. Worst case I would watch for the ceramic to take on a brass hue. That will tell you it is getting clogged. Not sure how easy it would be to unclog at that point.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Can't say if wet and dry cycles will work other that all the vibratory deburring machines I have used (think big as a hot tub and knocking off welding slag) have a row of low pressure sprayers that alway keep the media wet. The water drains off, is flitered by settling, and the water is syphoned off the top to repeat the process. Worst case I would watch for the ceramic to take on a brass hue. That will tell you it is getting clogged. Not sure how easy it would be to unclog at that point.

I would think just rumbling them with soap and water by themselves would get it off???

 

[nikonNUT]

I would think just rumbling them with soap and water by themselves would get it off???

Yeah, stay on top of it and you should be fine. The issue is called media glazing. From people that know...

WHAT IS MEDIA GLAZING?​

When you use media to finish a product, the media strikes the surface of the workpiece to remove rust, loosen dirt and smooth the surface. Finishing professionals will typically use a tumbling machine or abrasive blasting tips for this process. Media glazing occurs when fine metal particles and other debris from the workpieces begin to coat the media itself.

Because media works through abrasion, glazing removes its surface properties and makes it ineffective. Instead of creating a clean and consistent finish, the glazed media leaves an inconsistent burnishing effect on the workpiece. What’s more, it can pass the dirt and metal particles from its surface to that of the workpiece.

TIPS FOR RESTORING MEDIA​

While media glazing decreases the quality of a finish, it is possible to restore the media and its previous effectiveness. You can start by adding an abrasive cleaning powder to the media and running the tumbling machine for a few hours. Once the cycle finishes, flush the media with water to remove excess sediment and dirt. Replacing your entire mix can be expensive, so using a cleaning powder becomes especially cost-effective when glazing has affected a lot of the media.

What that cleaning powder is is up for debate but if glazing becomes an issue I would try bar keepers friend...

 

[lariat]

Those hardness numbers don't really mean what you are thinking in this context.

a) brass work hardens, and the surface will become harder from peening (whether from stainless pins, tumbling impacts, shot peening, whatever)
and
b) the hardness difference between stainless and brass is not the only measure, or even the most important measure, of how much the stainless might damage the brass. Sharpness of any edges on the pins, and amount of any abrasive material (including dirt and primer residue) involved carry more weight.

Along with that, generally speaking a softer material can often wear through a harder material if any abrasive material is involved. The abrasive (again, could be dirt/dust, primer residue, etc) can imbed into the softer material so that it wears into the harder material. I've seen this a number of times in my professional career with various types of durability tests, where even a plastic wire loom can wear into/through steel and aluminum parts. Keep in mind this is looking at wear/abrasion, not impact damage where the roles between hard/soft materials align more with what most people expect.

No, it means exactly what it says. I didn’t extend beyond the data on purpose, nor did I apply follow on opinions of the long term effects. However, the work hardening you speak of is a non-issue or else we would be forced to throw out brass faster from this method over walnut medium due to significant work hardening or suffer from other effects more often, such as increased force to resize and case head separation. We don’t see that so see we can observe isn’t a material change in the overall hardness of the brass like there is at the neck where real changes take place and annealing is required.

 

[Yondering]

No, it means exactly what it says. I didn’t extend beyond the data on purpose, nor did I apply follow on opinions of the long term effects. However, the work hardening you speak of is a non-issue or else we would be forced to throw out brass faster from this method over walnut medium due to significant work hardening or suffer from other effects more often, such as increased force to resize and case head separation. We don’t see that so see we can observe isn’t a material change in the overall hardness of the brass like there is at the neck where real changes take place and annealing is required.

I didn't say work hardening due to tumbling is an issue - I said surface hardness (which is not the same as through hardness like the numbers you quoted) can and does change as a result of peening, so the hardness numbers (which you implied has something to do with wear on the brass) you quoted are not really relevant because those numbers can vary a LOT simply based on the condition of the brass.

That was specifically directed at your assertion that LC would be OK for longer cleaning but softer brass might not - that's not fact based once you understand the realities of any operation that involves peening, even at a microscopic surface level. Hardness of cartridge brass is not a single unchanging value that would allow you to draw a conclusion like that correctly.

And of course that was aside from the fact that hardness alone is not the determining factor in that conclusion either. What I'm saying is your assertion was based on incomplete information and flawed data.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Well, I think I'm going to stick with my wet tumbling with the ceramic polishing balls/media, and soap with lemishine and a little cleaner. It works really well. I had some really nasty 223 brass that I didn't today and in 30 min, (done checking progress at 15 min intervals) , the brass is clean and no dust. I tried some different walnut stuff ect also before wet tumbling again and I just hate having to mess with getting the little pieces out of flash holes and the dust ect.... Wet tumbling with the ceramic balls is so much better than the ss pins or any other ss media, and it works so well, I think it am just going to order more ceramic balls and be all set going forward. The balls don't get to the inside of my case mouths at all so just the water cleans em a little but not too much.

 

[lash]

Well, I think I'm going to stick with my wet tumbling with the ceramic polishing balls/media, and soap with lemishine and a little cleaner. It works really well. I had some really nasty 223 brass that I didn't today and in 30 min, (done checking progress at 15 min intervals) , the brass is clean and no dust. I tried some different walnut stuff ect also before wet tumbling again and I just hate having to mess with getting the little pieces out of flash holes and the dust ect.... Wet tumbling with the ceramic balls is so much better than the ss pins or any other ss media, and it works so well, I think it am just going to order more ceramic balls and be all set going forward. The balls don't get to the inside of my case mouths at all so just the water cleans em a little but not too much.

It sounds like you have found the solution for you. Good on that.

I still don’t know why so many people have issues with dry tumbling in walnut media. I’ve been using it forever and so far have not had a single stuck media or dust problem. Do you guys not use a lid on your tumbling bowl? What walnut shell media are you using?

But I also know that there are many ways to get to the same destination and that’s what makes the world go round.

 

[Huskydriver]

It sounds like you have found the solution for you. Good on that.

I still don’t know why so many people have issues with dry tumbling in walnut media. I’ve been using it forever and so far have not had a single stuck media or dust problem. Do you guys not use a lid on your tumbling bowl? What walnut shell media are you using?

But I also know that there are many ways to get to the same destination and that’s what makes the world go round.

Tbh fine grit blasting media is my go too its similar to cream of wheat size and never gets stuck. Stuff is cheap too.

I did finally get some legit penning on some brass that was on its 4 cleaning so no go for anything but semi auto from now on. Back to dry tumbling for the stuff I care about the mouths

 

[MO Fugga]

Does it work on primer pockets?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

It sounds like you have found the solution for you. Good on that.

I still don’t know why so many people have issues with dry tumbling in walnut media. I’ve been using it forever and so far have not had a single stuck media or dust problem. Do you guys not use a lid on your tumbling bowl? What walnut shell media are you using?

But I also know that there are many ways to get to the same destination and that’s what makes the world go round.

It's not a matter of it getting stuck really, it's just that it's all inside the case and in the primer pockets amd then you have to get them out. Also, the dust. I've gotten 3 different ones and the all have some dust so, just not for me. Seems like more trouble for no reason and I have the added benefit of not getting any media inside of the case mouth, which is what I would prefer so it leaves some carbon there.

 

[Huskydriver]

Does it work on primer pockets?

Wtf cleans primer pockets anymore

 

[MO Fugga]

Wtf cleans primer pockets anymore

Manual labor apparently. Corncob, walnut, ss pins... de nada.

 

[FireFoot]

Well the ceramic getting clogged does make sense. I hadn't thought of that but I could see it. I haven't tried it dry yet but I can see that happening over multiple cycles. If I use the same ceramic balls and do wet sometimes and dry other times, that would greatly help the ceramic from getting clogged then right?

I really don't care for vibratory tumbler because every one I've ever seen is very loud and I've not found anything that didn't have dust. I've not used dillon case polish either but I will get some and try it with corn Cobb. Any specific corn Cobb that you know of that does much better with dust?

Honestly the ceramic with dawn, hot water , lemishine, and a little Mr clean or whatever works so well and so quickly, I may just keep doing that. It's super fast and works great

I’m curious as to what size/shape ceramic media you have had good results with?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I’m curious as to what size/shape ceramic media you have had good results with?

They are 10mm. You can get different sizes and smaller sizes but I wanted something big enough that it wouldn't go inside any necks, including .308 amd 6.5cm. I couldn't find any that would work and that were 8mm but that would be ideal I think. 7mm is too small unless you aren't worries about .308 Cades, then it would be perfect and it is available. The 10mm works like a champ though and I'm very happy with how easy it is to separate and how fast it works.

 

[Herb Stoner]

Just an update to my previous post.

Still wet tumbling with no media at all. I keep reducing the time and am down to about 20 minutes and I'm totally happy with the results. Just hot water with a little Dawn and some citric acid in a Rebel 17 tumbler. Looks and shoots beautifully.