At some arbitrary distace X, yes it will matter.now what was the SD /ES? I don't care if the ammo will shoot like this does it matter?
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At some arbitrary distace X, yes it will matter.now what was the SD /ES? I don't care if the ammo will shoot like this does it matter?
The information in the link was included only as illustrative of results achieved with a good rifle/barrel and good ammo. It wasn't prescriptive or a recommendation. No one needs to prioritize composite groups over any other, whether it's 25 or 40 round or something else. Of course, a chronograph is never necessary to see how an ammo shoots.I don't put much precedence on composite groups. IMO they really don't show a true meaning of how the rifle shot the ammo.
otherwise, these groups if compiled together would be very impressive especially since they were shot outdoors not in a tunnel and off a rest.
the first target 25 shot composite group of 7.79mm next 30 shot composite group of 8.128mm this group is including the fouler from a fresh clean bore and last targets 50-shot composite group of 13.76mm.
I will rely on actual multi-shot groups such as this 20-shot group which is 10.49mm by the way the group was shot with CX 1117 same lot as this 5-shot group on the top so based off this 5 shot group not surprising it shot the 20-shot group.
now what was the SD /ES? I don't care if the ammo will shoot like this does it matter?
Lee
IDK about that granted the farthest I have shot in competition is 100 yds. but same ammo used at 50 shot great at 100. so, what I am saying is good will shoot good no matter so not knowing the SD/ES doesn't matter what the results are what you should be looking for no matter the distance.At some arbitrary distace X, yes it will matter.
You posted the link for? I posted what I believe in that composite groups are an inaccurate means to compare how a lot or rifle will shoot.The information in the link was included only as illustrative of results achieved with a good rifle/barrel and good ammo. It wasn't prescriptive or a recommendation. No one needs to prioritize composite groups over any other, whether it's 25 or 40 round or something else. Of course, a chronograph is never necessary to see how an ammo shoots.
___________
With good shooting match ammo, few feel the need to pay attention to ES and SD at distances such as those in RFBR -- 50 yards. In any event, good shooting ammo won't have wild swings over the chronograph.
At increasing distances, ES and SD may matter more and more -- especially if the soft lead .22LR bullets actually go where their respective MVs predict. The problem is that, even without wind, they too often do not. And that's an issue that has little to do with ES and SD.
I'm with you. It does not matter what the SD/ES is. If has a ES of 2 and a SD of 1. You still have to shoot it on targets. Shooting is the final goal, why not start there.You posted the link for? I posted what I believe in that composite groups are an inaccurate means to compare how a lot or rifle will shoot.
so, if SD/ES is all over the place in a lot of ammo wouldn't it show bad results regardless of distances? do you need the readings of SD/ES of that lot to tell /confirm the lot is not good after seeing on the target how bad it shot. can someone explain why they would need the readings to convince them the lot is bad.
Lee
You can start there and what you say is valid for 50 yard shooting. ES and SD are very telling at long range. Your ammo cannot overcome these over a long string. They become critical beyond 100 yards regardless of your 50 yard accuracy.I'm with you. It does not matter what the SD/ES is. If has a ES of 2 and a SD of 1. You still have to shoot it on targets. Shooting is the final goal, why not start there.
Take the older Norma Tac22, it shoots good ( not great )at 50yds. at 100yds you start to see vertical, at 200yds you see a mil of vertical, at 300yds you may see 2 mils of vertical. 50% of the rounds hit the targets, but 50% will be high or low. I don't need to see the ES/SD to know I not going to shoot it for long range.
I personally think it becomes critical past 50yds. I have two rifles that will shoot CCI SV (I know it's cheap ammo) lights out inside 50yds. Took that ammo to a monthly silhouette match where the first target line is at 82yds and proceeded to miss some of those targets. I went to Eley ammo and the problem (mostly) went away. I still get the occasional weird flyer, but I'm not running the big bucks stuff, just Eley Club, so it's to be expected unfortunately.You can start there and what you say is valid for 50 yard shooting. ES and SD are very telling at long range. Your ammo cannot overcome these over a long string. They become critical beyond 100 yards regardless of your 50 yard accuracy.
Yep, this is true for sure.I completely agree but some are not as critical as you and I. Beyond 100 yards it’s obvious to all.
I don't put much precedence on composite groups. IMO they really don't show a true meaning of how the rifle shot the ammo.
otherwise, these groups if compiled together would be very impressive especially since they were shot outdoors not in a tunnel and off a rest.
the first target 25 shot composite group of 7.79mm next 30 shot composite group of 8.128mm this group is including the fouler from a fresh clean bore and last targets 50-shot composite group of 13.76mm.
I will rely on actual multi-shot groups such as this 20-shot group which is 10.49mm by the way the group was shot with CX 1117 same lot as this 5-shot group on the top so based off this 5 shot group not surprising it shot the 20-shot group.
now what was the SD /ES? I don't care if the ammo will shoot like this does it matter?
Lee
Lee, the link was included only to show four small ten shot groups. That's all it was meant to illustrate. It wasn't a recommendation for or against composite groups. Don't make an issue out of nothing.You posted the link for? I posted what I believe in that composite groups are an inaccurate means to compare how a lot or rifle will shoot.
so, if SD/ES is all over the place in a lot of ammo wouldn't it show bad results regardless of distances? do you need the readings of SD/ES of that lot to tell /confirm the lot is not good after seeing on the target how bad it shot. can someone explain why they would need the readings to convince them the lot is bad.
Lee
Nice shooting! And most likely even the cheapest regulated air rifle will crush a .22lr in consistency shot to shot.For those of us that shoot long range with 22rf its the vertical at distance that matters.
Latest example was a friend using his Anschutz 54 and running out of his good stuff/SK that did sub 1/2" at 50Y and would put most shots on our 200Y steel donkey that is 5" from belly to back.
He gets out his new stuff, also SK, trying it for the first time at 200Y, and it was pitiful trying to hit that same target. No the new stuff didn't do as well at 50Y, like .6-7" when zeroing but not still horrible for the regular guy.
Probably a perfect storm of high ES, and mentioning this because of the big flyers at 200Y which were ugly, also not so good in precision at 50Y.
I don't use a chrono either, and I'm not a BR shooter, so I don't need one holer's at 50Y but the ammo needs to put hits on reasonably sized steel at distance.
Even so its gets a bit silly shooting these 22rf's way past what they should be expected.
Just thought I'd put this in here for fun, and OT a bit, but I have a pcp air rifle that competes very well with my Anschutz 22rf at distance. It sends a 60gr, .245 G1BC, 25 cal, lathe turned pure lead boat tail bullet/slug at 862 fps with ES of 10 and is superior to 22rf in the wind. Wow, right?! However its not sub MOA at 100Y, more like just over MOA, and not built anywhere close to a Vudoo or Anschutz, etc in qaulity.
I did this very unoffcial test with it on a windy day at 421Y, 12 shots and 12 hits using a 3 MIL holdoff. I couldn't see where I was hitting but could hear the thwack on steel so was obviously hitting low. Also a wobbly, goofy, bench was used. This was just for a fun first try and I think it could be improved upon a lot.
The white circle is around 11" in size. Hey look a nick on the dick, I meant to do that, JK, lol
Not too bad for a BB gun.
View attachment 8262723
Here you go! just as it was when I found that lot of Cx1117 getting ready at Lapua's Mesa center and the test results. rifle is a 1st Gen Baity Falcon. the barrel in the picture shot that 20-shot group a new BM 3G barrel shot the two 5-shot groups with the CX 1962 & 1117 but this is not my dream rifle.C'mon Lee, lets see the sexy rifle that did those groups!!!
I agree a chronograph is not needed to see how good or bad a lot will shoot.Lee, the link was included only to show four small ten shot groups. That's all it was meant to illustrate. It wasn't a recommendation for or against composite groups. Don't make an issue out of nothing.
A chronograph isn't necessary to see how an ammo shoots.
Brian Litz really needs to write some articles on 22LRI am trying to understand the importance of knowing a lot's SD/ES. this being that it is rimfire past 50 yds. doesn't a shooter have to dial in a bit of MOA to get decently POA/POI? we are talking what 1100 fps max. so isn't the bullet's flight path in an arc? so, the bullet at longer distances is coming down to the POA sight line to get the POI impact dialed in? a shooter is essentially lobbing the rounds to the target. so how much does gravity change the SD/ES that was measured at the muzzle if it does at all?
Lee
My understanding he is a CF shooter. how many RF rounds do you think he has shot to be able to make an assessment on the .22LR?Brian Litz really needs to write some articles on 22LR
For my Anschutz 1827F with Polar Biathlon ammo when shooting a target at 300Y with a 50Y zero =I am trying to understand the importance of knowing a lot's SD/ES. this being that it is rimfire past 50 yds. doesn't a shooter have to dial in a bit of MOA to get decently POA/POI? we are talking what 1100 fps max. so isn't the bullet's flight path in an arc? so, the bullet at longer distances is coming down to the POA sight line to get the POI impact dialed in? a shooter is essentially lobbing the rounds to the target. so how much does gravity change the SD/ES that was measured at the muzzle if it does at all?
Lee
So, you based performance over knowing the SD/ES as I don't believe at Lapua they provided any chronograph or SD/ES information. what they do provide is group size and POI information such distance for POI to POI it stands to reason a lot that shoots small at one distance 50 yds. in this case will shoot comparably in size to the increased distance.For my Anschutz 1827F with Polar Biathlon ammo when shooting a target at 300Y with a 50Y zero =
If at 1110 fps my ballistic calculator shows 124.5" drop, vs if 50 fps slower at 1060 fps its 133.8" of drop, so theoretically 9.3" of difference. That represents normal ?ES? with a decent 50 round box of 22rf match ammo.
So it depends on the size of the steel target at distance we're trying to hit while hoping to get a edge hit due to the size of the vertical dispersion.
Nowadays I'm just messing around at long range so I'm not buying tested ammo like I did before but yes the Polar Biathlon ammo that I chose based on groups at the test center shot better at 50Y, 100Y, and father out. My current Wolf MT is almost as good but I lucked out and got a decent batch.
Very unusual question.I am trying to understand the importance of knowing a lot's SD/ES. this being that it is rimfire past 50 yds. doesn't a shooter have to dial in a bit of MOA to get decently POA/POI? we are talking what 1100 fps max. so isn't the bullet's flight path in an arc? so, the bullet at longer distances is coming down to the POA sight line to get the POI impact dialed in? a shooter is essentially lobbing the rounds to the target. so how much does gravity change the SD/ES that was measured at the muzzle if it does at all?
Lee
Nope I chronoed after I got the case of ammo to get the velocity then chose bc based on actual drops.So, you based performance over knowing the SD/ES as I don't believe at Lapua they provided any chronograph or SD/ES information. what they do provide is group size and POI information such distance for POI to POI it stands to reason a lot that shoots small at one distance 50 yds. in this case will shoot comparably in size to the increased distance.
I noticed no one has yet answered my question on gravity and if this would have any effect on the measured SD/ES at the muzzle.
Lee
I think you are confused on what I said. you bought a lot of ammo based off the test center performance results. you only knew what the chronograph numbers were after you got the case.Nope I chronoed after I got the case of ammo to get the velocity then chose bc based on actual drops.
It shot well enough to 300Y and a bit farther.
So to me the ammo met my requirements.
Decent enough in every way and it helped me to win a fair amount of NRL22 matches as well as placing high in some longer range outlaw matches.
Now you are just argumentative to support your opinion. Right or wrong, it’s neither proving anything nor worthy of doing. Drop it already.I think you are confused on what I said. you bought a lot of ammo based off the test center performance results. you only knew what the chronograph numbers were after you got the case.
unless you are saying no matter how it shot at the center you would have bought anything?
Lee
Nope I don't think so, I quote what was wrote earlier-Now you are just argumentative to support your opinion. Right or wrong, it’s neither proving anything nor worthy of doing. Drop it already.
Maybe, just maybe, both things matter. Maybe not to you. Maybe not to some. But if you are shooting long range and don’t care about anything but that you paid somebody to choose your ammo, then maybe you have more money than sense.Nope I don't think so, I quote what was wrote earlier-
I did before but yes, the Polar Biathlon ammo that I chose based on groups at the test center shot better at 50Y, 100Y, and father out.
so, I am just trying to see if I misunderstood what was wrote. why does it matter to you?
there are two schools of thought here, one uses actual on target result performance and the other SD/ES numbers. I get the reason for long distance shooting wanting to know.
Lee
No, I am not a troll, but seems like there are a few on this thread. I stated before the longest distance I have shot at in competition is 100 yds. and yes, I am old school where results are all that matters. call me a troll if I ask questions that seem to bunch up a few people's shorts. I can take any of my good shooting lots and dial in the MOA when I shoot at 100 yds. I might be off a click or two but most times I am on the money. I have no clue what kind of numbers any of the lots would show on a chronograph. maybe I am misunderstanding all of this.Hi-NV shooter is coming off some what like a troll.
At some distance X for any ballistics problem, the SD of MV will matter, because of basic math. The solution itself starts to get sensitive to the initial conditions, or show a sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
If one shoots nothing but BR at 50 or 100M, its possible one doesn't need to involve themselve in any of this, since once they are zeroed at competition distance, they don't even need to dial turrets, etc.
The predicate for having any real discussion here is being in a situation that you are actually needing a ballistic solution, and not just a trivial solution (eg a zero for a single condition) but a full array of solutions (eg "zeroes" for multiple distances, Temps, MVs, etc).
Then, and only then, once you understand when, where, and ballistics are relevant, and when, where, and why initial conditons are relevant to solving the ballistic solutions. From there, an ES/SD type variable is obviously imporant-- as "descriptive statistics" of the initial conditions.
My questions were based off what Justin stated in post 8-Very unusual question.
The short answer is not at all.
A longer answer is that if you could mathematically determine some tiny effect the actual change would be lost in the noise.
I’m not sure if you are a MIT scientist looking to prove an obscure theoretical point or just someone lost in the weeds. It’s obvious the net effect is nil.
Ugh.No, I am not a troll...
LOL. "factored in gravity"? What the fuck do you think is causing bullet drop?So, if SD/ES as measured will affect the vertical dispersion. has anybody factored in gravity?
It matters to me because in this whole thread there have been two considerations by two different interests going on. Those that believe that knowing the potential of an ammo at distance is important, and those that have no reason to care.
I may be in this category that doesn't embrace numbers so much with 22LR. Mostly because I can't control the production of the ammo I use. I bought the ammo for one of 2 reasons, I wanted inventory, or it proved itself on target. Let's concentrate on the proven ammo.Yes, of course it’s most important how a particular batch of ammunition groups on paper. And yes, results on target will determine whether you use that ammo. But just why in the fuck are you all so dead set against using statistical predictors like ES/SD to help you out? Are you all just anti-science/technology?
I understand now you sit up there om your throne where you wish not to explain to someone who never shoots past 100 never thinks about a numbers.Ugh.
LOL. "factored in gravity"? What the fuck do you think is causing bullet drop?
You are taking this way too personally. This is snipers hide, where it takes 100 posts to decide what rings are suitable for an application.I understand now you sit up there om your throne where you wish not to explain to someone who never shoots past 100 never thinks about a numbers.
just like some of the design engineers I have run across in the past. and when I explain the mistakes in their design, they just make like they never heard what I said. but make the changes and use it for future manufacturing.
Lee
Good point. But he forgot about the effects of Coriolis…I think what Lee is getting at are variations in gravitational pull due to inconsistent magma temps and density of the earth’s crust as related to position and phase of the moon.
But Coriolis is so pedestrian to this high level conversation.Good point. But he forgot about the effects of Coriolis…
Sorry. I got lost in the weeds.But Coriolis is so pedestrian to this high level conversation.
Look, here we have a man who changes physics with a tuner. Not sure if he does so on his rifle or places one on the North Pole and one on the South Pole? This is high level....and believe me I am no scientist; in fact, I have been called the complete opposite. because what I can achieve with a tuner is against physics!
Lee
I think you are confused on what I said. you bought a lot of ammo based off the test center performance results. you only knew what the chronograph numbers were after you got the case.
unless you are saying no matter how it shot at the center you would have bought anything?
Lee
Thanks Milo, maybe my questions were too stupid and ridicules. I don't know just trying to understand.You are taking this way too personally. This is snipers hide, where it takes 100 posts to decide what rings are suitable for an application.
I have a fair amount of respect for your posts, it's apparent you understand your game.
Friendly advice, let this shit show play out, no one is going to come out the champ here.
Nah being part of the management team I have a say. FYI, the engineers were from equipment manufacturers. who never had to repair a piece of equipment or explain to a customer why it keeps malfunctioning!Lee,
We already knew you don’t get along with your co workers.
People get a little passionate about things, you, and all of us entered a sensitive topic, lolThanks Milo, maybe my questions were too stupid and ridicules. I don't know just trying to understand.
Lee
It’s okay. Maybe some of us over react.Thanks Milo, maybe my questions were too stupid and ridicules. I don't know just trying to understand.
Lee
What Milo said.People get a little passionate about things, you, and all of us entered a sensitive topic, lol
I've really come to the conclusion that unless the need to know is so strong, I try figure it out myself, do what works for me, until it doesn't, then try something else.
You seem to shoot accurate systems, go shoot 3-400 yards someday, pay attention to what unfolds. On calm days, even with lesser ammo, we all can be good. Be warned, things turn fast and conclusions come easy.