In a perfect world they would go house to house and give decent people a gold star for being prepared to defend themselves and participate in the mutual defense of our nation and for not living their lives in such a fashion that others can't live theirs peacefully. Unfortunately, we seem to celebrate a confusing set of virtues.
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Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
- Thread starter BPaulk
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In a perfect world they would go house to house and give decent people a gold star for being prepared to defend themselves and participate in the mutual defense of our nation and for not living their lives in such a fashion that others can't live theirs peacefully. Unfortunately, we seem to celebrate a confusing set of virtues.
My comment was a stab at sarcasm, I guess I missed. I share the same feelings as others who have posted here that action might be our next step if the powers that be, make the wrong move. I am not a combat vet but I did take an oath. Hopefully, this can be resolved peacefully because I love my wife and two sons... but if need be, I'll do what I feel needs to be done.
As my grandfather would say, "Never view someone above you, never view someone below you... see them eye to eye."
As I continue to consider my evolving views and struggle to find my own reasonable options, I am necessarily concerned that my views could be uncharacteristic of my community as a whole.
These subjects are very much a forefront topic of discussion among my peers at the local Veterans' watering holes. Among them, my views are relatively moderate, which honestly surprises me.
Very few of these Veterans are involved in Shooting Sports at all, let alone in a serious manner; so this is not so strictly and solely a concern for gun owners. Its importance is felt among a far broader voter base. The underlying sense is that government as a whole has overstepped its mandate, and that the time is nigh when it needs to be stuffed back into its Jack-in-the-Box.
When it comes down to getting off the dime, it's becoming clear that I need not be in the forefront. The community is filled with superior candidates. I can confidently await my neighbors' arousal, and join in a large crowd with some certainty that such a tide would carry me in a useful direction.
And now, I feel it appropriate for me to relinquish this soapbox so others can give voice to their legitimate concerns.
Greg
These subjects are very much a forefront topic of discussion among my peers at the local Veterans' watering holes. Among them, my views are relatively moderate, which honestly surprises me.
Very few of these Veterans are involved in Shooting Sports at all, let alone in a serious manner; so this is not so strictly and solely a concern for gun owners. Its importance is felt among a far broader voter base. The underlying sense is that government as a whole has overstepped its mandate, and that the time is nigh when it needs to be stuffed back into its Jack-in-the-Box.
When it comes down to getting off the dime, it's becoming clear that I need not be in the forefront. The community is filled with superior candidates. I can confidently await my neighbors' arousal, and join in a large crowd with some certainty that such a tide would carry me in a useful direction.
And now, I feel it appropriate for me to relinquish this soapbox so others can give voice to their legitimate concerns.
Greg
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Reading this whole thing again, I now understand why this thread was born in the first place. I'm sure our founding fathers and our kin folk who gave all for what we had, would be proud, confused, happy, as well as angry, while reading some of the responses.
Complacency, Apathy, Glutton, and Lazy are all contagious, so glad or founders were not that way. When someone tells you they are educated and know better than you, I always find when checking their agenda, that may or not be true. A piece of paper does not tell ranking in class, or school stats from conception. Power needs to be in check, and our founders knew that, hence the 2nd. If it falls the sheep will need more Prozac and time on the couch as the wolves will have a good time until they run out of sheep. Much like running out of OPM (other peoples money) I enjoy the fact fineswine is bitching that what is good for us, is not allowed for her/them. Uncle is full of folks like us, but playing a trump card while at work, has to come at the correct time.
Complacency, Apathy, Glutton, and Lazy are all contagious, so glad or founders were not that way. When someone tells you they are educated and know better than you, I always find when checking their agenda, that may or not be true. A piece of paper does not tell ranking in class, or school stats from conception. Power needs to be in check, and our founders knew that, hence the 2nd. If it falls the sheep will need more Prozac and time on the couch as the wolves will have a good time until they run out of sheep. Much like running out of OPM (other peoples money) I enjoy the fact fineswine is bitching that what is good for us, is not allowed for her/them. Uncle is full of folks like us, but playing a trump card while at work, has to come at the correct time.
A piece of paper is just that, a piece of paper. Don't mean shit. What matters is "Have you learned to think and are you able to move beyond your own beliefs to examine the views of another and adapt?" If you haven't learned to do that then your time earning paper was wasted. But you don't need paper to do that, just an inquiring mind.
Even that doesn't mean much if your not willing to stand up for you views.
Despite some rough spots, which I have been in a couple of, this has been a good and valuable discussion. Though the thread will end, our commitment should not.
The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
Quote..."George Washington"
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Quote..."Thomas Paine"
There is such a thing as pure evil, the depths and darkness of which possess those who's hearts are given over to evils will. It is a mistake to think that evil is finished and one more wicked than before does not prepare.
When all civilities exhausted, their agenda brought out from the dark, we they deemed expendable chaff have but one last worldly hope, the trigger pressed.
Those given over to evil aren't immune to the affects of a bullet, nor the fear of it and bars.
Quote..."George Washington"
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Quote..."Thomas Paine"
There is such a thing as pure evil, the depths and darkness of which possess those who's hearts are given over to evils will. It is a mistake to think that evil is finished and one more wicked than before does not prepare.
When all civilities exhausted, their agenda brought out from the dark, we they deemed expendable chaff have but one last worldly hope, the trigger pressed.
Those given over to evil aren't immune to the affects of a bullet, nor the fear of it and bars.
^!^!^! This. I agree but wasn't going to comment because I thought it was too far off topic. But then I thought it really is on topic. And then I thought I'd just be preaching to the choir. But as I feel so strongly about it...
My favorite quote on the topic was delivered by a friend of mine to a woman who had announced repeatedly that she and her husband had gone to Cornell and was probably hoping for some oohs and aahs from the people she was telling this to, including yours truly. My friends response after he got sick of hearing it for the tenth time in the span of an hour was, "lady, who gives a fucking shit?". That pretty much ended the dinner party, for them at least. Her assessment of the other diners had been that we were for the most part a parochial bunch. She came to this conclusion, I believe, because our views (and I am plenty happy to talk about my views) were not congruent with the setting. We were in wine country on the central coast of California where most of the residents are either wealthy retirees or people from LA or the Bay area with a second home overlooking the pacific ocean. When she wasn't able to argue any of her points in a well thought out fashion she resorted to upstaging her audience with her pedigree. The fact of the matter was that the folks she was assessing (in great error) almost all had advanced degrees, and many of us had gone to ivy league schools. The guy who delivered the above quote above also went to Cornell but felt absolutely zero need to tell her that because he is plenty comfortable standing on his own 2 feet without the need for a few diplomas (I met him in graduate school) to shield him from someone who may be more clever but had no such schooling. Furthermore, she felt my father was an "astute" man. I think she said this because he was polite and chose not to offend when she certainly deserved it. Well, my dad was a welder with a high school education. He was also well read and a disciplined thinker. Had she known his education level I doubt she would have offered my dad the compliment, being the fool she was.
Do not ever be fooled by a diploma. Not only does it not signify an accomplishment of thought, it doesn't necessarily signal accomplishment of anything. Because of legacy admissions, big time donors purchasing a seat in the class, and other admissions criteria that don't signify that what sits on your shoulders is anything but a hat rack, no one is able to say anything about someone who has a golden degree other than they have it. My own personal favorite is the Rockefellar offspring I went to grad school with. He went to a decent under grad university, but was basically a party boy. To put off life he then went to an very expensive law school. But who wants to work when you can keep going to school and drinking lots of good liquor? And being a lawyer can suck as so many people are disagreeable. So then he decides to go to an equally expensive business school. One day when we were discussing economic theory he took a position that was indefensible and was getting frustrated that he had painted himself into a corner while not being able to just give in. In front of several people he simply shot at me, "well who has the bank, me or you?". He was saying that because he is rich he understands economics better than me, obviously. A year later when it became questionable as to whether or not he would graduate he simply reached into his satchel of economic wisdom and endowed a scholarship in his own name. Think about that for a moment... a current student cuts a check for an endowed scholarship at a school where the cost of an academic year is almost equivalent to the annual household income in the US. Before you even graduate you have a plaque at the entrance to the library with your name on it. What does that say about his degree, or mine? I'd say it was pretty well devalued the moment the school accepted the bribe. Don't get me wrong, I remain quite proud of my transcripts and I am not sure I have since been humbled by so many bright people all together in one room, but I consider the fact that this guy and others like him are running around with the same degree as a black mark. And trust me, they will let you know real quick what diplomas hang on their wall.
And what, among a lot of other bullshit, will a politician, policy wonk, or talking head tell you in the hopes of convincing you that their words are 24 karat nuggets of golden wisdom... where they went to fucking school. Well, who gives a fucking shit? I don't. But there are far too many people that will be wowed by this pile of crap grandstanding. It is an attempt to subjugate. It is intended to put you in your place because they don't have another handy way of doing it. It is arrogant, disrespectful, and often shows a complete misunderstanding of their audience. How many times have I (we) heard about the relative intelligence of 2 groups of people sitting on opposite sides of the fence over the 2nd amendment? This often takes the path of comparing someone who is well schooled and thinks this embarrassing part of our countries history needs to be erased, versus the un-degreed fellow who has romantic notions that are archaic and quite wrong-headed. If arguments and ideas are good enough to stand on their own then not much else should matter.
If your brain is so blessed and the quality of your character so divine that the world wishes to bestow upon you all the powers and divinities of Philosopher King, then for fucks sake there is no need to flash your creds. I sincerely wish that I had the power to spontaneously projectile vomit on the next person who pulls that shit in front of me.
Edit. As I now recall, endowment boy was from CT.
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My point exactly. Paper only means there is a strong chance they were/are educated beyond their intelligence. Smoke and mirrors only get you so far, because if the meat and tators ain't there the B/S starts to flow via the winding river they learned to swim in.
Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
No one can claim certainty when it comes to the American dream and what it means. James Adams borrowed liberally from Horatio Alger, and both were propagandists.
That there are smart intelligent people and stupid intelligent people is nothing new. Neither is the fact that raw intelligence rarely carries the day.
But because it doesn't, pedigree matters. It matters because by the time George W. Bush attended Yale the postwar open admissions system was already well-entrenched. Therefore, we can say, the fact that his father was a legacy had nothing to do with his pedigree and that he got in purely on the basis of his intellect. Do you think anyone believes that?!
So there's also an American myth. But does it invalidate the dream?
...No wonder that Heidegger said in 1938 that Americanism was something European. It may or may not be true any more today.
No one can claim certainty when it comes to the American dream and what it means. James Adams borrowed liberally from Horatio Alger, and both were propagandists.
That there are smart intelligent people and stupid intelligent people is nothing new. Neither is the fact that raw intelligence rarely carries the day.
But because it doesn't, pedigree matters. It matters because by the time George W. Bush attended Yale the postwar open admissions system was already well-entrenched. Therefore, we can say, the fact that his father was a legacy had nothing to do with his pedigree and that he got in purely on the basis of his intellect. Do you think anyone believes that?!
So there's also an American myth. But does it invalidate the dream?
...No wonder that Heidegger said in 1938 that Americanism was something European. It may or may not be true any more today.
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Not one bit.
Graham, you pack so many ideas into a single post I might spend the rest of the day if replying in earnest. So I'll keep it to just that one.
That's funny right there I don't care who you are.
Here we are talking about gun rights and you what something intelligent said? If people of intelligence had been leading this nation after Ike, we would not be having this bantering in the first place.
Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
Are you saying that you in favor of a strong egalitarian democracy, or are you for powerful leadership only by people who see it your way?
Because this new argument appears to contradict your first one, although with an explanation that may not be the case.
Is your position that our leaders are corrupt and that the system is rigged to the point of requiring resistance; or are you saying that the problem is a lack of people of intelligence leading the nation? Or both?
Are you saying that you in favor of a strong egalitarian democracy, or are you for powerful leadership only by people who see it your way?
Because this new argument appears to contradict your first one, although with an explanation that may not be the case.
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I think what most are saying is we want a system of laws based on the what the Constitution actually states, not some twisted interpretation of it by the overly educated, self important snob bastard. Its that simple. (Not you specifically Graham but people of your ilk)
Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
Methinks you doth project too much: It's starting to look like it was me who got in your head, and not the other way around.
Instead of adding to this discussion you repeat a previous insult. I would have labelled it a personal attack, but it sounds more like wishful thinking.
Methinks you doth project too much: It's starting to look like it was me who got in your head, and not the other way around.
If only the problem was so simple as to be a matter of blaming it on people we don't like, don't agree with or don't understand.
Unfortunately, losing rights is a political process. Thankfully, so is interpretation our constitution, which is why we don't have the right to keep and bear only flintlocks.
Well put, GF. there are a llt of 'intelligent' people running (note I said running, not leading...big difference) the country. Unfortunately I have see exactly 0% vision and not much more integrity.
hehehe flintlocks, thanks for the giggle, but to your point, I reference my previous point.
No, actually, the sinister side of me finds it really entertaining. Trust me, if it was a personal attack, you would know it. Normally I would have said what I think about some of the degrading egotistical remarks you have made to other people by now but the only thing keeping me in check is respect for this great forum Frank has created, his leniency on this thread, and the others on the board whose opinions I greatly respect. I actually admit that lately I have been trying really hard to play nice and that is not easy for someone who has a habit of telling arrogant people exactly what I think of them. As you are well aware, I don't take a lot of crap. Believe it or not Graham, I am trying to be nice to you but you get so worked up over nothing. No one can exchange even the slightest banter with you because you get your nose all out of joint, or as the Australians say, fall out of your tree.
I do get what you are saying, but perhaps I should have added that interpretation of a document that will survive change is the reason why non-whites and non-males can also keep and bear arms.
Point being: Arguing for 'what the constitution says' means nothing without first agreeing on what the constitution means (when it says what it says). And clearly the 2A, using the same words, means different things to different political factions.
Therefore, arguing for literalism and/or strict constructionism can never be a realistic solution. We must advocate first for general principles.
Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
I don't know to whom you feel the need to act tough, or prove that you are tough, but I will make it easy for you: You are tougher than I am; thank you for you restraint and for your maturity.
Meanwhile, if anything you just said about about your motives was true you could easily have sent me a PM instead of disrupting someone else's thread. But you never did. I'm not asking for one, I'm just saying that your actions don't back up your claimed high ground.
Don't mistake my stating of facts for being "worked up".
Hmmm... Now tell me again that I'm not in your head, and which one of us has fallen out of the tree.
I don't know to whom you feel the need to act tough, or prove that you are tough, but I will make it easy for you: You are tougher than I am; thank you for you restraint and for your maturity.
Meanwhile, if anything you just said about about your motives was true you could easily have sent me a PM instead of disrupting someone else's thread. But you never did. I'm not asking for one, I'm just saying that your actions don't back up your claimed high ground.
Don't mistake my stating of facts for being "worked up".
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Yeah right all this yapping to get to a point that "interpretation matters". Like you're in some sort of debate or as you call it political process where there are arguments on the table and around the table men of similar or common interests or as KY put it "good will".
There is right and there is wrong and you only have three groups of people, the one that knows right and sticks to it no matter what, the one that knows right but chooses to stick to it when they see fit and thirdly the one that wouldn't know right if it hit them in the head. And those whom you'd like to have debate with come mostly from group three and partly from group two. Go ahead debate all you want, might as well start political process with a grizzly momma bear with two cubs who had awaken very pissed off and hungry.
We humans are really a sorry bunch there are simple rules to live by (don't steal, don't f... around etc..) and we have to make them complicated (don't steal potatoes, don't steal with gun etc...) but not because we lack precise definition we ALL know it (at least those of first two groups) but because the groups two and three NEED complication to prosper, they need smoke and mirrors, they need conflict and they need to obfuscate everything because only this way can they manipulate group one.
Make no fucking mistake those in power are in fact mentally sick or simply evil and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it (their state of mind i mean). If they will be pushed by civil disobedience i'm pretty sure they will respond in force but they know very well that numbers are not in their favor (do not underestimate those in power, their puppets might be dumbos but puppeteers are definitely not) and they will pick time and place and method be sure of that.
PS: Check out the thread about EddieO in Ireland how system works and to what extent those in power or their servants will go to prove or maintain their position.
There is right and there is wrong and you only have three groups of people, the one that knows right and sticks to it no matter what, the one that knows right but chooses to stick to it when they see fit and thirdly the one that wouldn't know right if it hit them in the head. And those whom you'd like to have debate with come mostly from group three and partly from group two. Go ahead debate all you want, might as well start political process with a grizzly momma bear with two cubs who had awaken very pissed off and hungry.
We humans are really a sorry bunch there are simple rules to live by (don't steal, don't f... around etc..) and we have to make them complicated (don't steal potatoes, don't steal with gun etc...) but not because we lack precise definition we ALL know it (at least those of first two groups) but because the groups two and three NEED complication to prosper, they need smoke and mirrors, they need conflict and they need to obfuscate everything because only this way can they manipulate group one.
Make no fucking mistake those in power are in fact mentally sick or simply evil and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it (their state of mind i mean). If they will be pushed by civil disobedience i'm pretty sure they will respond in force but they know very well that numbers are not in their favor (do not underestimate those in power, their puppets might be dumbos but puppeteers are definitely not) and they will pick time and place and method be sure of that.
PS: Check out the thread about EddieO in Ireland how system works and to what extent those in power or their servants will go to prove or maintain their position.
Mosesthetank--I thoroughly enjoyed and agree with your post #313. I am but a simple knuckledragging redneck working with many over-educated and under-worked college graduates. Many of them (not the majority, but a significant number nonetheless) seem to lack that increasingly uncommon asset--common sense. He may be mental genius but has no idea how to go about translating his intellect into actual physical results in a real working atmosphere.
The easily offended are most miserable, they use their offended chip as a debating tactic, don't fall for it. Ignore them, minimize words with them, never do business with them, never ever trust them. Typically the offended lack the humor gene, they tend to think themselves on a higher plane than the common man (knuckle dragging rednecks), they tend to be failures in life never really reaching the riches their superior intellect dictates, a sad lonely death awaits in the end.
What was this thread about again?
What was this thread about again?
Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
RHunter, again kindly stop trying to bait me into arguing with you about unrelated topics. In addition to Trolling being against the rules, it's also against the sprit of this discussion for which you have already so ardently thanked Frank.
Does anyone have anything to add to the topic of discussion?
RHunter, again kindly stop trying to bait me into arguing with you about unrelated topics. In addition to Trolling being against the rules, it's also against the sprit of this discussion for which you have already so ardently thanked Frank.
Does anyone have anything to add to the topic of discussion?
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That is something very common with a lot of book smart people. It is due to the lack of real world experience.
The best military commanders are typically those who first started as enlisted men and then either received their commissions by finishing school or receiving a battlefield commission. Though the latter is not as common as it used to be.
The rank that gets the most honest respect in a company is that of the 1st Sergeant, that Captain is more or less the liaison to higher command. There is a reason the enlisted refer to the 1st Sergeant as "top". Now that I am in the real world and own my own company, I can certainly see the disparity even more clearly. Book smarts are really worthless when compared to real world management skills.
And that is the problem with a lot of politicians (not all but a significant number) they lack real world management skills. They have personalities where they think they are right about everything and have absolutely no talent to bring people together and that is part of the core of what good management is.
The other key part of the core is leadership. That is not something you learn with your nose buried in a book.
And of course another problem with those in control is corruption. Huge huge problem....
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Blame our leaders all we want, at the end of the day it is us who let things come to this point, the common citizen, the boss of our leaders, yep us. At the end of the day I am confident the people will get focused and see through the obfuscation on the issues when they get out of hand. I might be a romantic but history and my half of century plus on this earth tells me the good ship America will be righted one way or another. In the mean time try to get your points across in a civil manner when you discuss the issues with the neighbors and circle of friends.
RHunter don't worry about it graham does this in just about every thread with any philosophical bent. He likes to argue, and sometimes even makes good points. Lol. By the way, I was impressed and encouraged by your thoughts in this thread on the duties of a citizen and your views on the Constitution. I think you are very much in line with original intent. Well done RH, enjoyed reading your posts.
The thread seems to be winding down some now and in any case will end at some point so I'd like to say thanks to all who contributed. Some great points have been made; I thought it was an enjoyable thread and again appreciate the opportunity to have it here and get the thoughts of the hide on an important subject. Like many other threads here on SH I come away with some knowledge/insight I didn't have before.
The thread seems to be winding down some now and in any case will end at some point so I'd like to say thanks to all who contributed. Some great points have been made; I thought it was an enjoyable thread and again appreciate the opportunity to have it here and get the thoughts of the hide on an important subject. Like many other threads here on SH I come away with some knowledge/insight I didn't have before.
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Do you think they will go house to house in Connecticut?
Not an attack, I just never want to be accused of not having a sense of humor. It sounds dangerous!
BTW, RHunter, I agree with KY: Not that you aren't too 'worked up' now to care, but I did enjoy your insight in some of your posts and I tried to say so by liking them.
Jerry, I so want to have your baby. ?
Not an attack, I just never want to be accused of not having a sense of humor. It sounds dangerous!
BTW, RHunter, I agree with KY: Not that you aren't too 'worked up' now to care, but I did enjoy your insight in some of your posts and I tried to say so by liking them.
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Consider yourself accused. Humor means funny. You are not funny.
I agree.. I will give him credit where credit is due.
If we could just get that chip off his shoulder, he might actually be a bit more credible or at least tolerable.
See Graham, that is funny. It is called banter... Wait for it.. one, two.. get out of the way folks I hear branches breaking..
Thanks, I do appreciate that. I hope it helps open a few eyes and changes a few hearts. I don't like what I see on the horizon.
I agree with Jerry, the nation will right itself. But we do have a problem with systemic corruption that is hidden behind a veil of ideology. Our leaders honestly do like to see the country divided the same way Al Sharpton likes to use the race card. The reason for it is financial. If Americans were not pissed off, they would not send money to political candidates. Division and strife between parties is very good for business.
Then you have the control bent weaved in there and that is the really scary part, that is where we see legislation that circumvents the Constitution. They want to take the corruption to a whole new level.
When you boil it all down, it is about money and control. Absolutely nothing else. Good men in politics are a very very rare breed because a good man can not live in that environment. If his heart is in the right place his heart will be constantly frustrated with the system and the fact he can not do more to fix the system because the rest of the men around him, do not want it fixed.
I firmly believe at some point we do need to hit the reset button and instil a little fear into those who claim to be our representatives. I do believe the natives need to be a bit restless. Talk will make them leery, civil unrest will scare the hell out of them.
I am by no means an anarchist, I do not condone the use of violence, but sometimes violence IS what is needed. If the government continues to try to squash our Constitutional rights we need to suit up.
When my kids were small I could scream at them and it would go in one ear and out the other. But I tell you, when I paddled me some ass, those little monsters cooled their shit. About once every 3 months or so a swat or two was needed to keep their ass in-line. I got it when I was a kid and I am glad the old fella knocked the shit out of me. It got me to THINK. It was a lesson between right and wrong. That swat on my ass was good to make sure I didn't soon forget the lesson.
Look, the concept of civil unrest is not a pleasant one. It makes my stomach turn. But I want you to really consider this, that second amendment is the paddle we have when the democratic process gets out of line. Our founders were very very reasonable men. Despite their arguments and disagreements they formed the greatest country this world has ever known and they knew the final check and balance had to consist of a bit of violence to set the country straight and keep it free if it started to come off the rails.
So I don't think that civil unrest is solely a bad thing, like them, I see it as something that could be necessary.
They did not give us the right to capture and hang the tyrants, they gave us the constitutional right to shoot them. Seriously. That is the black and white of the second amendment.
One thing about our founders, when it came right down to it, those men did not fuck around. They had purpose and they had vision. I would hold those truths to be self evident.
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I have no brothers or sisters by blood. It is a pleasure, and honor, to have a venue to fellowship with you brothers.
Though I was not in the Corps,
Semper Fidelis.
Maggot out.
Though I was not in the Corps,
Semper Fidelis.
Maggot out.
Man you guys are worse than junior high kids fighting, yak yak yak......... "I love you man", you guys know you will end up at "I love you man" stage so why don't you all just skip the drama and get back to bashing the lever pullers behind the curtains.
Wait a minute... Graham wants to have Jerry's kids....?
Hhahahahaa! Funny shit!
Great thread by the way. Definitely food for thought.
Hhahahahaa! Funny shit!
Great thread by the way. Definitely food for thought.
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