Advanced Marksmanship Does a longuer barrel help for 1 mile shot ?

[_Raining]

Drop can be dialed.

There are extreme cases where this sentiment doesn't apply. For instance I have seen it used in an argument about 22lr vs 17hmr about the only difference between the two was how much wind effects them since you can just dial for elevation. BUT we forget that GPS and LRF are not perfect and we have spread in our MV (especially with rimfire). According to my applied ballistics app, midas + at 1100 fps (not sure what the real world velocities of it are but this sounds about right for subsonic 22lr) has a drop of 38.8 MOA at 300 yards. At 310 yards that drop goes to 41.1 MOA. And 301 has a drop of 39.05 MOA so a 1 yard difference translates to a .25 MOA difference. And if I use 1095 fps then the drop at 300 becomes 39.00 so a .2 MOA difference for 5 fps.

So in theory, "Drop can be dialed" is true but when you start to get into the extremes, those things we took for granted as negligible start to creep forward and become a problem that we can't account for.

 

[lash]

There are extreme cases where this sentiment doesn't apply. For instance I have seen it used in an argument about 22lr vs 17hmr about the only difference between the two was how much wind effects them since you can just dial for elevation. BUT we forget that GPS and LRF are not perfect and we have spread in our MV (especially with rimfire). According to my applied ballistics app, midas + at 1100 fps (not sure what the real world velocities of it are but this sounds about right for subsonic 22lr) has a drop of 38.8 MOA at 300 yards. At 310 yards that drop goes to 41.1 MOA. And 301 has a drop of 39.05 MOA so a 1 yard difference translates to a .25 MOA difference. And if I use 1095 fps then the drop at 300 becomes 39.00 so a .2 MOA difference for 5 fps.

So in theory, "Drop can be dialed" is true but when you start to get into the extremes, those things we took for granted as negligible start to creep forward and become a problem that we can't account for.

That’s why all of the research, apps and charts in the world aren’t worth squat unless you use them to develop and record actual drops using your specific rifle and conditions. The rest is all academic and charts are great to get you in the right drop zone.

 

[Rocketvapor]

There's even some lift and drop due to wind angles.

 

[stello1001]

why do I feel like this thread and the one linked below ask almost the same thing?

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...barrels-on-1-mile-shots.6986724/#post-8315666

 

[_Raining]

That’s why all of the research, apps and charts in the world aren’t worth squat unless you use them to develop and record actual drops using your specific rifle and conditions. The rest is all academic and charts are great to get you in the right drop zone.

While I agree, that is not quite the point I was making. You are saying that the app might say 4.6 Mils for X distance and that you should go out and verify that, and you might find out that it is actually 4.8 Mils.

What I am saying is that when you start to get to the extremes of what a cartridge is capable of, a tiny error in the actual distance is going to cause problems.

Think of it this way, if you drive your truck out to ~300 yards and set a target down, drive back to your range. You have a 6.5 creedmoor and 22lr. You range the target with your LRF and it says 312 yards but the actual distance is 316 yards because LRF are not perfect and have error in them, as do chronographs. That error is negligible for the 6.5 creedmoor at that distance but will cause a noticeable difference in impact for the 22lr. You could have gone out the week before to a super secret military compound where the distance to the targets were measured with extremely precise instruments and you got a perfect dope for 312 yards, but because in this case the LRF lied by 4 yards you are going to impact low. In fact this could cause problems with your dope because you would get frustrated and think, did I bump my scope, am I holding the rifle differently, is my kestrel giving incorrect data etc but in reality you are just at the extreme end of the 22lr's performance where small error can't be disregarded as negligible.

Most people are aware that there are distances were we start to care more about MV ES but we forget that error in ranging a target also plays a part (as does deviation in bullets SD and a whole host of other things like how consistent your powder weighing scale is from one day to the next, assuming you don't chrono your load every time you go out etc etc).

 

[CygnusX1]

why do I feel like this thread and the one linked below ask almost the same thing?

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...barrels-on-1-mile-shots.6986724/#post-8315666

I started that other thread and someone suggested I post it in Advanced Marksmanship

 

[CygnusX1]

There are general trends for specific competitions:
F Class (Midrange 300-600) - 6 BR and BR variants will do well here.
F Class (Long Range 700/800/900/1000) - Based on what I have read, looks like the 284 Win/Shehane is popular but you also have 7 SAUM, 300 WSM, and things of that nature.

The idea seems to be that 6 BR variants are easy to tune and seem to produce the tightest groups but if you put wind in the mix it can be better to step up to the 7mm rounds. I am pretty sure the BR world record at 1K for smallest group was from a 6 BRA but that is 5 rounds vs the 20 you need for F Class so wind changing is a bigger problem since you shoot more rounds and thus more time passes giving the wind more time to fuck you in the ass.

F Class T/R (Limited to 308 and 223) is mostly dominated by 308 but some crazy mofos do well with 90 VLDs but I have read they can be finicky to reload for. F class Open and T/R use long barrels to squeeze out as much velocity as they can (28-32" it seems is around where most people are). Berger seems to be the most popular bullets used aside from the custom 6mm's for BR (For 308 it was 200.20x but I guess the new 208 will be the new hotness).

PRS Seems to be dominated by the 6mm's, with the idea being do you care about barrel life, if yes you are closer to 6 BR, if not you are closer to 6 creedmoor. So we got 6 BR, 6 BRA, 6 BRX, 6 Dasher, 6 GT, 6 XC, 6x47, 6 creedmoor (I am sure I am missing a few). But they all poretty much use Berger 105's or the 115 DTAC but it has been a bit since I did research on this so there might be a few other ones (I think there is a new DTAC? and Berger has the 108/109 also). I just use the 105's in my Dasher as I have 1k of them.

I am not into ELR but the KO2M What the pros use showed 416 Barret and 375 Cheytac as the common rounds.

Then you have the new 6.5 PRC which doesn't really fit into a competition category (too much recoil for PRS) but is good for hunting and general not competitive long range shooting to go past PRS distances. 300 PRC also same thing, not really competition used but is good for long range beyond PRS distances.

Faster bigger higher BC etc will give you an advantage against the wind but you need to factor in recoil and barrel life into what you want. If you are competing, just pick one of the popular rounds.

6.5 creedmoor is good for F Class and PRS but it isn't going to be the most popular for either but is a pretty good default for entry into precision rifle shooting. Tons of rifles and ammo availability in 6.5 creedmoor.

I'm just getting started and the 6.5mm Creedmoor was suggested to me for 1000 yards shot.
Not for competition...Just prone and shooting steel/paper. But I will take a close look at the other ammo you refered to

Thank you !

 

[b6graham]

I'm just getting started and the 6.5mm Creedmoor was suggested to me for 1000 yards shot.
Not for competition...Just prone and shooting steel/paper. But I will take a close look at the other ammo you refered to

Thank you !

6.5 creed will serve you best. By a long shot

 

[Steel head]

I'm just getting started and the 6.5mm Creedmoor was suggested to me for 1000 yards shot.
Not for competition...Just prone and shooting steel/paper. But I will take a close look at the other ammo you refered to

Thank you !

That cartridge is perfect for those tasks.

 

[CygnusX1]

That cartridge is perfect for those tasks.

Wow !
I spent part of the evening reading up on the ammo that Raining suggested a few post above......
Chey Tac 375 and 408g.......makes short action bullets look like peas !!
....6.5 PRS, 300 PRS, 300 Norma Mag.......very often compared to the venerable 300 Win Mag

Impressive BC, ballistics....and prices !!
I can see how the 6.5 creedmoor will do more than fine for my particular use but I'm glad I spent some time looking into some of these heavyweights !

Bottom line, before hitting 1000yards targets, I have to get good and consistent at increments of 100 yards all the way up there

Just out of curiosity, being on the forum of Advanced Marksmanship, do any of you do this for a living ?
Or is it a hobby ? ....(OK, lets call it an obsession )

 

[Milo 2.5]

This raises an interesting question:
For a 1000 yards shot, do you choose a caliber that stays supersonic 10 % past 1000 yards or 20 % or even greater ?

Thank you for your insights !

You would be well served to go to JBM and run some bullet combinations. Most 6.5's, and 6mm's we shoot extend well past 1K.
This is my Dasher at 5500 DA, which we get most sunny winter days where I live. 110 Sierra at 2920fps. I need a little nicer day to get hits at 1600, but 1450 is doable on almost any day. not saying efficient, doable.

If my math is correct, my platform stays superdoopersonic 65% past 1K

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'm just getting started and the 6.5mm Creedmoor was suggested to me for 1000 yards shot.
Not for competition...Just prone and shooting steel/paper. But I will take a close look at the other ammo you refered to

Thank you !

If you are new, IMO, the 6.5 creed is the perfect learning cartridge. Not excessive recoil, great case to get a handle on controlling it, but where it shines is shooting a heavier bullet and the ability to spot impacts. If you are shooting, and not knowing where your bullets are impacting, you are not learning or advancing. 6mm's are great cases, but if you want to start with one, you best hand pick your target locations, and being new, that is going to be foreign to you also.

 

[Steel head]

Wow !
I spent part of the evening reading up on the ammo that Raining suggested a few post above......
Chey Tac 375 and 408g.......makes short action bullets look like peas !!
....6.5 PRS, 300 PRS, 300 Norma Mag.......very often compared to the venerable 300 Win Mag

Impressive BC, ballistics....and prices !!
I can see how the 6.5 creedmoor will do more than fine for my particular use but I'm glad I spent some time looking into some of these heavyweights !

Bottom line, before hitting 1000yards targets, I have to get good and consistent at increments of 100 yards all the way up there

Just out of curiosity, being on the forum of Advanced Marksmanship, do any of you do this for a living ?
Or is it a hobby ? ....(OK, lets call it an obsession )

I decent conditions shooting the 6.5’s to a past a mile is feasible if you have your act together.
I have two hobbies.
fly fishing and long range shooting.

 

[lash]

I’d hazard a guess the the majority of posters in this forum are hobbyists. I do know that we have members that do this for a living and a good number that used to do it for a living, but the majority are people that made the mistake of thinking that long range shooting would be fun and got sucked in big time.

 

[Steel head]

I’d hazard a guess the the majority of posters in this forum are hobbyists. I do know that we have members that do this for a living and a good number that used to do it for a living, but the majority are people that made the mistake of thinking that long range shooting would be fun and got sucked in big time.

It’s better than a getting your balls smashed fetish.

 

[Milo 2.5]

It’s better than a getting your balls smashed fetish.

That's genius level shit right there!

 

[CygnusX1]

If you are new, IMO, the 6.5 creed is the perfect learning cartridge. Not excessive recoil, great case to get a handle on controlling it, but where it shines is shooting a heavier bullet and the ability to spot impacts. If you are shooting, and not knowing where your bullets are impacting, you are not learning or advancing. 6mm's are great cases, but if you want to start with one, you best hand pick your target locations, and being new, that is going to be foreign to you also.

Thank you for the JBM tip
I found their website and find it more complete than some ballistic apps I was using.

There is only one 900 yards range available to me and thats a Millitary base in Ottawa. So whatever its elevation, DA, winds.....that will be my shooting ground. One Hide member also suggested I take courses for LR shooting. This way, I learn the right way to shoot LR rather than trying to undo bad habbits. (Roger on that !)

Just to give you a heads-up on my shooting experience, I've only shot about 200 rounds to date on a WW1 Ross rifle (0.303) with iron sights......That's how I got the sniper bug and I want to go into LR to ...900 yards

 

[Rocketvapor]

CX1,
I'm thankful they let regular folks join here.
I've also got the LR bug. Made it all the way out to 600 yards so far
Just don't talk too much about cheap stuff and everyone is pretty nice here.

 

[CygnusX1]

CX1,
I'm thankful they let regular folks join here.
I've also got the LR bug. Made it all the way out to 600 yards so far
Just don't talk too much about cheap stuff and everyone is pretty nice here.

You will be pleased to hear that I want to buy a Cadex rifle and since joining the "Hide", I discovered ZCO scopes and fell in love with their 5x27.......So up here in Canada, thats a $10K rig + case, mat, bipod and accessories.

What I wanted to do was to make a 100 years jump in sniper rifle technology and get myself an insane rig.
Just retired so this rig is a treat. An inheritance will clear the way.....no cheap stuff here....I noticed that very fast in here

Thanks for the welcome !!