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Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

Humble284

Private
Minuteman
Sep 25, 2009
23
0
54
MONTANA
I dialed in a load for my 7mm with a 162g A-Max that likes either a 0.030" or 0.060" jump to the lands. Both of the jumps are equal on paper to the best that I can shoot and are marginally better than seating to the lands (gently touching). I have chosen the 0.060" jump.

My question is: Now that I am using 168b VLDs in the same load, should the jump be the same (0.060)? Is jump a gun nuance or a bullet nuance, perhaps a bullet-gun nuance? Will jump change with loads?

Pending answers here, I will take my small press with me to the range and see. I will seat them to the lands and try 0.030 and 0.060 from there.

It would be nice if jump was a gun thing that didn't vary much.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

When you change to a different style bullet, other things change with it. You may NOT, but you will probably have to reset the "jump" for that particular bullet.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

Different ogeive designs will enter/touch/jam the lands completely differently. You'll need to remeasure your chamber using the new bullet and then reset your bullet seat that bullet just to maintain the same 0.060" jump. And that in no way means it will perform the same.

For instance, there is about a 0.010" - 0.015" difference between measuring my chamber with a 155AMAX vs a 155 Scenar.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Different ogeive designs will enter/touch/jam the lands completely differently. You'll need to remeasure your chamber using the new bullet and then reset your bullet seat that bullet just to maintain the same 0.060" jump. And that in no way means it will perform the same.

For instance, there is about a 0.010" - 0.015" difference between measuring my chamber with a 155AMAX vs a 155 Scenar. </div></div>

Absolutely, I agree. The bullet COL to lands for the A-Max 162g is 3.680 (+-0.001) and the COL Lands for the Berger VLD 168g is 3.688 (+-0.001). This is why I am asking. The weights are pretty close and the COL Lands in close too. I have to test this, I was wondering if anyone else has been this way before.

Thanks for the post.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

Why are you jumping any bullet .060? Are they trying out for the Olimpics? Seems like a lot to me.
RTH
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are you jumping any bullet .060? Are they trying out for the Olimpics? Seems like a lot to me.
RTH </div></div>

It works. Both 0.030 and 0.060 jump for my gun and load combo, yield between 0.4 and 0.5 MOA from 100 to 500 yards. I don't remember why i did not stop at 0.030 when reviewing the results. Oh, I do remember now... I'm a malcontent HA!
grin.gif
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

Agreed,
the jump is different in a 175 sireea match king than a 168 sierra match king . measured and verified.
Bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you change to a different style bullet, other things change with it. You may NOT, but you will probably have to reset the "jump" for that particular bullet. </div></div>
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed,
the jump is different in a 175 sireea match king than a 168 sierra match king . measured and verified.
Bill
</div></div>

So, just to be clear, the amount of jump changes. I know the COL will change with different bullets. Your rifle likes a different amount of jump between the two SMKs?
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

I'm a little confused by your repeated use of COL. Are you referring to the 'cartridge overall length' from casehead to tip of bullet or are you referring to the distance from the head of the case to the ogieve of the bullet?

When I stated that there was a 0.010" - 0.015" change, I meant from casehead to ogeive, not COL. Just wanted to make sure I was clear that the difference is a function of how the ogeive design contacts the lands (and gauges, and bullet seater stems) and not COL function of how long a bullets nose is.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a little confused by your repeated use of COL. Are you referring to the 'cartridge overall length' from casehead to tip of bullet or are you referring to the distance from the head of the case to the ogieve of the bullet?
</div></div>

Sorry about that... I am referring to the length of the cartridge from the head to the ogive. I use a Sinclair comparator and a digital caliper for this measurement. This actual measurement does change from bullet-type to bullet-type. Bullet-type meaning style, weight, ogive etc.

So, considering the aforementioned clarification (which was needed), does the <span style="font-style: italic">amount</span> of jump (not the actual change in COL* *see above) change from bullet-type to bullet-type while the rest of the load (powder, charge, primer, case-prep etc) remains the same?

More questions to chew on:

Why does jump affect accuracy? Is it the harmonics of the shot?

Perhaps I do not fully understand "jump."
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

+1
grin.gif
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you change to a different style bullet, other things change with it. You may NOT, but you will probably have to reset the "jump" for that particular bullet. </div></div>
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hue001t</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i wasent going to ask but can someone break down bullet jump 4 me a lil?</div></div>

Jump is the distance between the point on the bullet that will contact the lands and the lands themselves when an unfired cartridge is loaded into the chamber. If there is any jump the bullet is not touching the barrel at all until when loaded and the bolt is closed. Thus when fired the bullet must "jump" forward over this distance without the barrel providing guidance/stability before it will contact the lands and begin traveling down the barrel in contact with the grooves. With zero jump (the bullet either lightly touching or jammed into the lands) the bullet is held in position by the barrel before it is ever fired. This space in the chamber between the end of the case neck and the beginning of the barrel lands is referred to as 'throat' or 'freebore.'

Issues with this first, obviously, are pressure. A bullet that is pressed against the lands and must deform and fill the grooves before it can move at all will obviously result in a higher peak pressure in the cartridge than a bullet that can allow a little of that pressure to subside as it is propelled into the grooves at some speed with very little initial resistance. Also there comes the issue of concentric circles. Ideally you want the bullet to enter the lands perfectly centered in the barrel. Whether this is best achieved by having the bullet stabilized by the lands of the barrel before it is ever fired (jammed into the lands) or if it is best achieved by allowing the bullet to "funnel" into the lands (relatively) free of the position of the cartridge is a question beyond my experience.

However different bullet designs will respond different to different jump distances because of the shape and profile of their ogieve (the point at which the diameter of the bullet matches the diameter of the lands and so will first contact the barrel) and the shape and angle of the lands.

Another issue to consider is that if you choose no or very minimal jump then you have left very little tolerance for error in your seating. Seat a bullet a little long and it may be wedged quite tightly into the lands when you close the bolt (possibly becoming stuck there should you choose to unload without firing) or load it a little short and you may have a load with markedly different pressure profile because it is not touching the barrel like your other shots.

Some benchrest shooters choose to leave all bullets seated long and then "soft seat" them by using the lands to push the bullet back to a consistent depth every time when the bolt is closed. Issues with this are that you must first have relatively light neck tension (so that the bullet can be pushed in relatively easily) and it must be very consistent (variances in neck tension, and thus resistance to moving, will cause the bullet to change how much it moves into the case vs how much it deforms and presses into the lands of the barrel.) Also when seated this way you pretty much MUST fire any cartridge you load because unloading will pull leave the bullet stuck in the lands as the case is extracted, spilling gunpowder into your action and requiring something to push the bullet out of the barrel before another cartridge can be loaded. That fact, and the relatively low neck tensions that make the ammo somewhat fragile for field use, are why most practical shooters don't soft seat.

 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

Here is where I want to jump in and ask our resident barrel and bullet mavens about the relationship between bullet ogives and throat leade angles.

Does anyone have any solid info about how these factors interact, and how one might make this interaction work better? Optimally?

What I'm looking for is some fact-based guidelines on how to approach the issue.

Greg
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is where I want to jump in and ask our resident barrel and bullet mavens about the relationship between bullet ogives and throat leade angles.

Does anyone have any solid info about how these factors interact, and how one might make this interaction work better? Optimally?

What I'm looking for is some fact-based guidelines on how to approach the issue.

Greg</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"> Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting </span></span> Chpt 16 addresses it slightly. I would imagine if Bryan were to bless us with his insight he could expound considerably.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

Nice explanation Ratbert,

To add to it; in general bullets with a secant ogive (Bergers, JLK's etc)want to be closer to the lands than a tangent (Sierra's) ogive will tolerate. This is not always true though. In my 300 Wby I jump the 210 Bergers .030.

You need to test to find what your rifle will prefer.
 
Re: Does bullet jump vary from bullet to bullet?

You can load a round using the OAL using one bullet, then changing bullets and using the OAL for that one can give you a different "jump".

The ogive is the final factor.