Does concentricity matter?

[Milo 2.5]

The reason concentricity matters is if the projectile isn't inline with the centerline axis of the bore it will enter the bore cockeyed and exit the same way. Think of a wounded duck football flying through the air as opposed to a tight spiral.

Lol, that may be obvious, but at what level does it matter? Does jamming a bullet straighten it out in the case neck? Given the fact that actual bullet dia is a half thou under barrel dia and most chambers have a leade in, could a bullet be off more than .005" after chambering?
All questions I have no answer for.

 

[cornhusker86]

Lol, that may be obvious, but at what level does it matter? Does jamming a bullet straighten it out in the case neck? Given the fact that actual bullet dia is a half thou under barrel dia and most chambers have a leade in, could a bullet be off more than .005" after chambering?
All questions I have no answer for.

My example is oversimplified to be sure. The amount of runout allowable for a given discipline varies and I'm not the guy to suggest what is required. My Forester Co-Ax and Redding bushing dies keep it to a minimum.

 

[Milo 2.5]

An oversimplified example to be sure. The amount of runout allowable for a given discipline varies and I'm not the guy to suggest what is required. My Forester Co-Ax and Redding bushing dies keep it a minimum.

Yes, same here, Whidden sizers cut my runout in half from Redding type s dies. Some have issues with whidden, I have had one out of spec die from them, 2 from Redding< not so much out of spec from Redding, just chamber to die mismatch.

 

[Rthur]

Yes. It matters. Sometimes.

I switched to LE WIlson bullet seating chamber dies, and am now always within 1/1000th of an inch concentricity.

View attachment 7091665

Seems to me its worth it just to eliminate "out of concentricity" as a complicating factor.

What measuring tool are you using to determine .001 of runout?

R

 

[garandman]

What measuring tool are you using to determine .001 of runout?

R

Using Hornadys concentricity gauge.

 

[Rthur]

Using Hornadys concentricity gauge.

Just so I understand your assertion, you are saying you have + .001 and - .001 of runout or .001 total?

R

 

[SPAK]

My thoughts:

1. The brand of bushing matters. Switching to whidden bushings from Redding made a HUGE difference across the board.

2. The largest contributing factor is your brass. The necks either are from the start unequal thickness or your sizing process, die, or bushing induced runout. Seating does can induce runout as well, some more than others.

3. If your going to shoot and test make two batches of rounds. One that are near Perfect <.001-.002 TIR and another batch of .003-.006 TIR. Separate them and put them in two bags but don’t mark the brass. Have a buddy go with you to the range and load your magazines for you but not tell you which batch is which until both are shot. Two separate targets one for straight and the other for not as straight.

Sometimes we shoot better because we “think” something is making us shoot better.

4. If you really want to fix run out you will likely need to neck turn and even then if the imperfection is in the entire length of the brass body it’s only a temporary fix if it fixes it at all...

5. The only time I check concentricity now is with a new set of dies or a new batch of brass to make sure there’s nothing outrageous. I try and only use quality brass and if I don’t, I sort necks for thickness variation, pull the outliers, Check for concentricity for a couple loaded rounds and hang it up.

 

[Bender]

Here is an unsolicited piece of advice.

If you go throughout your day and find everyone you meet is an asshole,

You’re the asshole.....

 

[TheGerman]

Go put a box of FGMM through a concentricity guage and let me know what you find.

You'll be really fucking surprised.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Here is an unsolicited piece of advice.

If you go throughout your day and find everyone you meet is an asshole,

You’re the asshole.....

WTF ???
So that is my problem, but I knew that, and so did you, lmfao

 

[Milo 2.5]

My thoughts:

1. The brand of bushing matters. Switching to whidden bushings from Redding made a HUGE difference across the board.

SOB, I just bought a 6mm set of Whidden bushings, not sure if these are still called CRT's? I had switched to whidden dies long ago, but it is tough using steel bushings when TiN are available. Be tough to lube necks.

 

[Huskydriver]

Using Hornadys concentricity gauge.

A Hornady concentricity guage can't measure tip to tip run out...it can tell you if run out is present in a loaded round but not how much and whether it is the bullet, brass or both FYI

 

[garandman]

All the a-holes I meet daily... 100% of them ... are right here. In this forum.

Nowhere else.

And they comprise maybe one tenth of 1% of this forum. The other 99 plus percent of people I meet here are awesome.

The 1/10th of 1 % are basically a juvenile circle jerk all trying to impress each other... making me the center of every thread I participate in. Not sure why, but they all seem threatened by me.

Its pathological.

 

[garandman]

Just so I understand your assertion, you are saying you have + .001 and - .001 of runout or .001 total?

R

Back on topic... the guage fluctuates all within 1 thousandth total.

 

[cornhusker86]

 

[SPAK]

SOB, I just bought a 6mm set of Whidden bushings, not sure if these are still called CRT's? I had switched to whidden dies long ago, but it is tough using steel bushings when TiN are available. Be tough to lube necks.

They are the same as CRT. At least that is my understanding.
I used to think the same about TiN coated bushings but in practice I ended up lubing the necks anyway even using TiN coated bushings.

I only full length size so if you’re neck sizing only I can see why there is an appeal to TiN bushings.

I’ve tested so many bushings it’s not funny. Not to mention expensive. Even two of the same bushings from Redding yielded different results on the concentricity gauge.

I was convinced enough that I replaced all my bushings with whidden/CRT bushings.

The gauge has shown it was worth it.

 

[MarinePMI]

All the a-holes I meet daily... 100% of them ... are right here. In this forum.

Nowhere else.

And they comprise maybe one tenth of 1% of this forum. The other 99 plus percent of people I meet here are awesome.

The 1/10th of 1 % are basically a juvenile circle jerk all trying to impress each other... making me the center of every thread I participate in. Not sure why, but they all seem threatened by me.

Its pathological.

I thought I’d just link these two posts together for a more blatant dose of reality.

Here is an unsolicited piece of advice.

If you go throughout your day and find everyone you meet is an asshole,

You’re the asshole.....

 

[Rthur]

Back on topic... the guage fluctuates all within 1 thousandth total.

By this it would seem to indicate that you are at .0005 concentricity on center.
Or common parlance 5 ten thousandths.
I'll wager your measuring device isn't up to that level of metrology.

R

 

[Mike Casselton]

Check your IM's for a response.

I would remind you that many of the contributors to this forum have collectively, centuries of experience, and are far from the "group think" type. No, primarily the "old hands" here are the quiet professionals, and while opinionated alphas, understand that the devil is in the details.

He just likes preaching to people

 

[Lunchbox27]

Idk what you guys are doing wrong. Here is my hand load with less than 1 thou runout. Shoots 1 hole at 1,000 yards.

 

[garandman]

By this it would seem to indicate that you are at .0005 concentricity on center.
Or common parlance 5 ten thousandths.
I'll wager your measuring device isn't up to that level of metrology.

R

Watch this:


The first cartridge they check.... that's what my gauge reads. "less than 1 thousandth." Each gradation is a thousandth. The gauge stays within the single gradation

Don't know what to tell ya. That's what my gauge reads,when I use the Wilson seater dies.. How much you want to wager?

 

[garandman]

He just likes preaching to people

Yup. I just love wasting my time.

 

[Rthur]

Watch this:


The first cartridge they check.... that's what my guage reads. "less than 1 thousandth." Each gradation is a thousandth. The gauge stays within the single gradation

Don't know what to tell ya. That's what my gauge reads,when I use the Wilson seater dies.. How much you want to wager?

Just because the gauge "reads" .001 of movement doesn't mean it is capable or accurate.
I have "guages" that read into the ten thousandths and can do it consistently.
I'll wager there is more than .001 of play in the casting/cylinder securing the bullet end.
In other words just because there is a video on the internet doesn't verify their measurements or standards.
I've lead you to the water and you'll have none.
I'll spare you the loss of any wager.

R

 

[garandman]

Just because the gauge "reads" .001 of movement doesn't mean it is capable or accurate.


R

Yeah.... Whatever, dude. LOL


God just told me ALL your micrometers are inaccurate. And none of your scopes are really quarter MoA adjustments.

LOL

 

[Rthur]

Yeah.... Whatever, dude. LOL

FYI my Interapid indicator alone costs 3 times your hornady rig.
Dude...

R

 

[garandman]

A foo and his money are soon parted.

 

[Rthur]

A foo and his money are soon parted.

I agree

R

 

[garandman]

I agree
View attachment 7092712

R

Cuz you have secret knowledge my gauge is definitely malfunctioning.... never having actually seen my gauge. Are you hearing voices telling you this stuff?

LOL

You are a hoot bro !

You don't have tomorrows lottery numbers you can give me, do ya?

 

[Rthur]

Cuz you have secret knowledge my gauge is definitely malfunctioning.... never having actually seen my gauge.

LOL

You are a hoot bro !

You don't have tomorrows lottery numbers you can give me, do ya?

Have had hands on this POS.
I'm sure yours is the best example they made.
Accuracy in metrology isn't cheap.
Hint...

R

 

[garandman]

Have had hands on this POS.
I'm sure yours is the best example they made.
Accuracy in metrology isn't cheap.
Hint...

R

All you micrometers are malfunctioning. I have secret knowledge too.

 

[TheGerman]

We need a Thunderdome thread where garandman and orkan argue over mundane shit and see how long it can go.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Yup. I just love wasting my time.

Mark,
You're not wasting your time. In fact, the idea behind many of your posts is solid. It just seems that no matter how much knowledge a person might have, you dismiss their response as nonsense because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Your agenda appears to be putting other people down because you have a high and mighty opinion of yourself. In fact, right above this post you said "God told me all of your micrometers are inaccurate". That's just messed up.

Maybe it's time to remove the collar if you're going to try and treat people with disrespect. Learn to turn the other cheek if you feel the need to lash out.
You keep casting the first stone, yet you are shocked to see that others cast them back in your direction.
I don't think your boss would be happy with your behavior towards others. I think it's time you sat down and read a good book instead of spending so much time telling others how to live their lives.

 

[garandman]

Mark,
You're not wasting your time. In fact, the idea behind many of your posts is solid. It just seems that no matter how much knowledge a person might have, you dismiss their response as nonsense because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Not true.

Just recently, one poster explained how you can channel the feed ramp of the Rem 700 receiver so it'll feed long COAL rounds from the mag. I jumped on that and quickly modded mine. Loved that. VERY helpful. There's TONS of good info, here.

In contrast, I got ppl telling me my concentricity gauge is definitely malfunctioning here in this very thread. They've never seen or touched my gauge.

Guess what? I reject foolish posts like that as idiotic.

And I make no apology for it.

And yer calling ***ME*** out for being unwilling to listen? SERIOUSLY?!??!?!??!?!

I don't think your boss would be happy with your behavior towards others. I think it's time you sat down and read a good book instead of spending so much time telling others how to live their lives.

How am I telling people how to live their lives? What the $&#@* are you talking about?

 

[garandman]

Apparently you gotta be on some approved list around here to make any assertions of fact... EVEN about things that are happening with your own gun, or loading bench. I've never run into such nutty ppl as here.

Its educational and entertaining, to say the least.

 

[garandman]

In fact, right above this post you said "God told me all of your micrometers are inaccurate". That's just messed up.

That was a JOKE.... parodying a dude telling ME that MY concentricity gauge is malfunctioning.

Lighten up, Frances. Please read more carefully. Trying to understand rather than looking to criticize.


BTW...I'm not a priest. I don't wear a collar. And please do NOT start confessing your sins to me. LOL

 

[garandman]

We need a Thunderdome thread where garandman and orkan argue over mundane shit and see how long it can go.

LOL.

"mundane shit" ... is that code for "ppl telling me that my concentricity gauge is malfuntioning, SIMPLY bcuz I didn't pay a ridiculous price for mine like they did" ...???

No need for a special thread. I'm done speaking to that issue.

 

[Triple D]

He didn’t say it was malfunctioning, he said that it likely didn’t have the degree of accuracy built into the instrumentation to read accurately down to the level you stated.

Just because it has a graduation doesn’t mean it’s accurate. It’s a novel concept, but I guess you’re just working on faith that it’s accurate/correct.

 

[Ledzep]

Okay here goes nothing...

The Hornady gauge in a perfect world pins both ends of the cartridge and you measure the jump-rope bend present in the middle (usually near the start of the ogive).

If the tip of your bullet is deformed, you read runout on the gauge. If there is actual runout in the seating of the bullet, you read runout on the gauge. If your extractor mangled the rim of the case, you read runout on the gauge. You can bend the neck to correct for a mangled rim and read zero runout at that 1 point on the gauge, and have made your problems worse.

Think of how barrels are indicated in for chambering. You accept that the bore is non-concentric to the OD, and measure off of TWO points to get it running true. Measuring off of 1 point will give you positional correctness at that ONE point, but does not guarantee axial correctness anywhere, and does not guarantee positional correctness anywhere besides that one point.

More to Rthur's point, there has to be clearance between the spring loaded cylinder and the housing for it to slide back and forth. Take your gauge, load up a cartridge, then push back and forth on the spring loaded cylinder. You can ASSUME it self-centers, but you don't have a guarantee of that. Likewise on the back end, there is slop that is hard-biased from using the tightening screw to hold that cylinder in place.

Not saying the tool is useless, broken, etc... It just has limitations and there are many variables that have to be checked before you can definitively say that bullet seating runout is what is being measured, and what is being measured is valid.

 

[Triple D]

All you micrometers are malfunctioning. I have secret knowledge too.

The only person saying gauges are malfunctioning is you.....

 

[garandman]

He didn’t say it was malfunctioning, he said that it likely didn’t have the degree of accuracy built into the instrumentation to read accurately down to the level you stated.

Just because it has a graduation doesn’t mean it’s accurate. It’s a novel concept, but I guess you’re just working on faith that it’s accurate/correct.

He's definitely workin' on faith that it isn't accurate / correct.... given he's never seen or touched the gauge.

Hilarious !!

 

[garandman]

The only person saying gauges are malfunctioning is you.....

No sense of comedy...or when a person is CLEARLY joking... a case of HID ....."humor impairment disease" ....

 

[supercorndogs]

Malfunctioning and accurate to .001 are two different things. I don't need to touch cheap measuring tools to know they aren't that accurate. No one does, thats why they are cheap. I bet you think the .0005 on you caliper means its that accurate too, Hilarious.

 

[bourbonbent]

You don’t understand precision measuring equipment, it was pointed out (quite politely), and you got your feelings hurt.

You do this in just about every thread I’ve seen you run your mouth in. Which is a lot. You post a LOT.

You also have the thinnest skin I’ve ever seen on the internet, and lash out at anyone who doesn’t talk to you like you’re their grandkid. Then, you turn around and act shocked and self righteous when people call you out for your ridiculous and combative behavior.

You also don’t seem to know the difference between a file and a stone, so rest assured, no one here takes you seriously.

For reference, files are made of metal. Stones are not.

God himself could fly down on winged Pegasus and tell you the sky is blue, and you’d call him an idiot and tell him to quit stalking you.

 

[Triple D]

No sense of comedy...or when a person is CLEARLY joking... a case of HID ....."humor impairment disease" ....

Awww. Someone got caught twisting words and now they are joking...

From the same guy claiming ppl were editing his posts to misrepresent him.

Hilarious!

 

[garandman]

Okay here goes nothing...

What you say *can* be true. No argument there.

I've tested about 100 bullets (maybe more) on this gauge. ALL the ones checked using Wilson seater dies are at or below 1.5 / 1000th.... the vast majority right at 1/1000th. The bullets seated using RCBS, Hornady etc usually measure 3-5 / 1000s out. (And I'm SURE Whidden others make VERY concentric dies also, not just L.E. Wilson)

I'm pretty unlucky, but I'd hafta have THE worst luck in the world to have the things that MIGHT skew gauge reading to happen in all hundred or more rounds checked.... and ONLY the rounds that Wilson dies were used.

 

[garandman]

Malfunctioning and accurate to .001 are two different things. I don't need to touch cheap measuring tools to know they aren't that accurate. No one does, thats why they are cheap. I bet you think the .0005 on you caliper means its that accurate too, Hilarious.

I only read to the 1000th. Not the 10000th.

Thanks for asking.

 

[garandman]

Awww. Someone got caught twisting words and now they are joking...

From the same guy claiming ppl were editing his posts to misrepresent him.

Hilarious!

You can't see that the stmt "All you micrometers are malfunctioning. I have secret knowledge too. " is CLEARLY A joke parodying someone telling me my gauge is reading inaccurately?

Come one....yer not an idiot. Yer a smart guy. You MUST be able to see this....

 

[Triple D]

What you say *can* be true. No argument there.

I've tested about 100 bullets (maybe more) on this gauge. ALL the ones checked using Wilson seater dies are at or below 1.5 / 1000th.... the vast majority right at 1/1000th. The bullets seated using RCBS, Hornady etc usually measure 3-5 / 1000s out. (And I'm SURE Whidden others make VERY concentric dies also, not
I'm pretty unlucky, but I'd hafta have THE worst luck in the world to have the things that MIGHT skew gauge reading to happen in all hundred or more rounds checked.... and ONLY the rounds that Wilson dies were used.

But..but...but....what if the RCBS and Hornady loaded rounds were really 5-10 thou off, and the Wilson were 3-5 thou off??

 

[garandman]

But..but...but....what if the RCBS and Hornady loaded rounds were really 5-10 thou off, and the Wilson were 3-5 thou off??

As I said.... I'm pretty unlucky.... lol Its why I don't bother playing the lottery.

 

[garandman]

A peace offerring.....

Somebody buy me a wicked high dollar gauge that you trust, and I'll post video of me running concentricity checks on my LE WIlson dies....