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Does crimping help or hurt accuracy?

I sometimes hear that the good / “best” 6 mm cartridges like 6BRA tends to get better ES than 6.5 CM. Am i chasing an unrealistic ES goal with the 6.5 caliber? Should i switch caliber... pretty major investment though....

A key factor in my choosing the 6 BRA was that it had the lowest reported SD by top PRS shooters - good article comparing cartridges in the Precision Rifle Blog.

Now, with that said, is it worth switching? I don't think so, especially if you have a lot of barrel life left. There is another article on the same site that talks about the practical difference between different SDs - the difference between a 5 SD and 3 SD is minimal. Being an ex-NASA engineer, I geek out on optimizing things, so I like the challenge of lowering it, but I don't harbor any illusions that I'm getting dramatically meaningful benefits.

Switching to a short 6 from a 6.5 CM means new dies, new mags, new brass, etc., etc. Also, the 6.5 will do things that 6's won't do - and don't undervalue being able to better spot trace at longer ranges. I'm building a new 300 PRC as soon as my stock comes in next year, but then my next project will be something in the 6.5 family. I'm currently leaning toward a 260 AI. Keep the 6.5 and if you really want a short 6, get another rifle so you have both.

To answer your question: "Am I chasing an unrealistic ES goal?"

Honestly, ES should not be the goal, accuracy and precision should be. An ES of 15 with my 6mm means a difference of 8.03 mil vs 8.13 mil. An ES of 8 yields 8.05 mil vs 8.10 mil. That's a spread of 3.6" vs 1.8" at 1000 yards.
 
No I get sub 10 out of a bart 5r on a trued Remington and I shoot 147’s how you shoot 140’s speed wise with no pierced primers and no ejector marks. At what length does a Berger 140 touch the lands? I might be wasaay off here, but what if your chamber is throated for more of a tangent type bullet and your setting up your cases way to short and causing the pressure spike that Is throwing off your es. It all seems to boil down to seating depth. I’m think I’m now on the same page as all the other folks on this thread. Load them .020 off even if they are more than mag length and give it a go single feed if you have to.

Will do, batch of 50 is loaded way long, but could not make it to the range today. Life interfered.

Intention is to optimize seating depth at the range, using the arbor press. Probably in a week or so, as i have a trip coming up next week Tuesday.

BTW: Reseated a batch of ammo i built a month ago (140 ELD in Lapua brass with H4350), using the arbor press and inline Wilson seater die. About 90% of them reseated smoothly, and felt totally normal. The other 10% seated with a noticeable thunk. Very high resistance (2x higher than original seating force), and then it suddenly came loose, and left an indentation on the nose of the bullet.

Soooo..... I think i might not have fully cured the bullet weld problem i had before! Clearly better, but not gone. I wonder if the humid Gulf Coast climate has anything to do with it... Might have to reseat at the range from now on.

HOW do you folks cure bullet weld, i want it 100% gone!
 
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Will do, batch of 50 is loaded way long, but could not make it to the range today. Life interfered.

Intention is to optimize seating dept at the range, using the arbor press. Probably in a week or so, as i have a trip coming up next week Tuesday.

BTW: Reseated a batch of ammo i built a month ago (140 ELD in Lapua brass with H4350), using the arbor press and inline seater die. About 90% of them reseated smoothly, and felt totally normal. The other 10% seated with a noticeable thunk. Very high resistance (2x higher than original seating force), and then it suddenly comes loose, and left an indentation on the nose of the bullet.

Soooo..... I think i might not have fully cured the bullet weld problem i had before! Clearly better, but not gone. I wonder if the humid climate has anything to do with it... Might have to reseat at the range from now on. And HOW do you folks cure bullet weld, i want it 100% gone!
You might look into a mandrel set up instead of the sizing button in your die. Between that and cleaning up the necks in my brass the consistency of all the calibers I load for went way up. I do t think I’ve ever experienced bullet weld. I usually load 6/6.5 creed in 200 batches and it’ll be weeks before o shoot them all. And they run awesome consistent wise.
 
You might look into a mandrel set up instead of the sizing button in your die. Between that and cleaning up the necks in my brass the consistency of all the calibers I load for went way up
I use a cheap Sinclair for most stuff except 6mm and for that I have fancy K&m ones. I prefer the Sinclair though. Seems more robust and it’s cheaper
 
A key factor in my choosing the 6 BRA was that it had the lowest reported SD by top PRS shooters - good article comparing cartridges in the Precision Rifle Blog.

Now, with that said, is it worth switching? I don't think so, especially if you have a lot of barrel life left. There is another article on the same site that talks about the practical difference between different SDs - the difference between a 5 SD and 3 SD is minimal. Being an ex-NASA engineer, I geek out on optimizing things, so I like the challenge of lowering it, but I don't harbor any illusions that I'm getting dramatically meaningful benefits.

Switching to a short 6 from a 6.5 CM means new dies, new mags, new brass, etc., etc. Also, the 6.5 will do things that 6's won't do - and don't undervalue being able to better spot trace at longer ranges. I'm building a new 300 PRC as soon as my stock comes in next year, but then my next project will be something in the 6.5 family. I'm currently leaning toward a 260 AI. Keep the 6.5 and if you really want a short 6, get another rifle so you have both.

To answer your question: "Am I chasing an unrealistic ES goal?"

Honestly, ES should not be the goal, accuracy and precision should be. An ES of 15 with my 6mm means a difference of 8.03 mil vs 8.13 mil. An ES of 8 yields 8.05 mil vs 8.10 mil. That's a spread of 3.6" vs 1.8" at 1000 yards.

Fair enough.

Strelok predicts a 9” vertical dispersion for my load at 1000 yards. My load is almost good enough, just need to get it a bit better (5-6” would do).

Have narrowed down my issues to:

1) Load is not inside the node anymore. Barrel has sped up since i tested the initial set of loads. Plan to redo load development soon, including optimizing seating depth.

2) Bullet weld is back. Or perhaps never left. Other than loading long and reseating the day of the shoot, what can be done about it?
 
I use a cheap Sinclair for most stuff except 6mm and for that I have fancy K&m ones. I prefer the Sinclair though. Seems more robust and it’s cheaper

I have a Sinclair and a K&M, and have tried them both before. Seems to scratch the inside of the necks, which might not help with bullet weld?

What lube do you guys use with the mandrel die?
 
No I get sub 10 out of a bart 5r on a trued Remington and I shoot 147’s how you shoot 140’s speed wise with no pierced primers and no ejector marks. At what length does a Berger 140 touch the lands? I might be wasaay off here, but what if your chamber is throated for more of a tangent type bullet and your setting up your cases way to short and causing the pressure spike that Is throwing off your es. It all seems to boil down to seating depth. I’m think I’m now on the same page as all the other folks on this thread. Load them .020 off even if they are more than mag length and give it a go single feed if you have to.

You are right that the profile is quite different between Hornady ELDM and Berger Hybrid.

Btw: MPA chamber is throated for a Hornady 140 ELDM with i believe a 5 thou jump, to ensure that the factory ammo works well as is.

Have figured out how long i can load the Bergers, but my notebook is not with me. Will have a look. It is very long...
 
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A key factor in my choosing the 6 BRA was that it had the lowest reported SD by top PRS shooters - good article comparing cartridges in the Precision Rifle Blog.

Now, with that said, is it worth switching? I don't think so, especially if you have a lot of barrel life left. There is another article on the same site that talks about the practical difference between different SDs - the difference between a 5 SD and 3 SD is minimal. Being an ex-NASA engineer, I geek out on optimizing things, so I like the challenge of lowering it, but I don't harbor any illusions that I'm getting dramatically meaningful benefits.

Switching to a short 6 from a 6.5 CM means new dies, new mags, new brass, etc., etc. Also, the 6.5 will do things that 6's won't do - and don't undervalue being able to better spot trace at longer ranges. I'm building a new 300 PRC as soon as my stock comes in next year, but then my next project will be something in the 6.5 family. I'm currently leaning toward a 260 AI. Keep the 6.5 and if you really want a short 6, get another rifle so you have both.

To answer your question: "Am I chasing an unrealistic ES goal?"

Honestly, ES should not be the goal, accuracy and precision should be. An ES of 15 with my 6mm means a difference of 8.03 mil vs 8.13 mil. An ES of 8 yields 8.05 mil vs 8.10 mil. That's a spread of 3.6" vs 1.8" at 1000 yards.

Found the post and it is very interesting:


So my SD of 6-8 fps is slightly better than what these PRS shooters provided (it is an average of several shooters). Makes me think i will not get much more of an improvement....


7A367199-71C1-41E4-BAF5-47B3BA63ED46.png
 
I read that you said fully prepared brass and I know that means different things to different people, but yes, all the numbers are for sure more consistent when annealing every reloading. I usually anneal my match brass every other loading though. I haven’t found it makes a big practical difference and my time is already so limited that I have at the loading bench.
 
I read that you said fully prepared brass and I know that means different things to different people, but yes, all the numbers are for sure more consistent when annealing every reloading. I usually anneal my match brass every other loading though. I haven’t found it makes a big practical difference and my time is already so limited that I have at the loading bench.

I should have listed all my initial (batch one) brass prep steps but yes until a month or so ago, i did (almost) everything, and it took copious amounts of time that i would love to get back!

Edit: Have neck turned new brass before fire forming for 6 years via the K&M cutter and expander mandrel. Recently decided to run the experiment to see if premium brass will work well without neck turning.

Only bought premium brass (Lapua and Alpha), check for bent necks (FL sized these, remainder was loaded as it came out of the box), measure the length of all the cases, cull any exceptionally short cases (rare), then cut them all to the same length (often 5 thou shorter than trim length, because my batch of Lapua brass had many short ones, undesirable as it leaves more room for the carbon ring to form), then debur and chamfer the necks, brush out the necks (to remove debris), then weight sorted them into batches of typically 1.0 grains (of course, after trimming to the same length), checked the neck thickness with a ball micrometer and then culled any brass that had neck thickness variation of more than 0.001” (1 thou), sorted them in descending weight order, serialized the cases (small number engraved on the side close to the web so i can keep track of repeat offenders, prevent brass batches from getting mixed up), neck turned the brass that made the grade, cut the primer pockets to the same dept, inspected 10 or so samples looking for a bur inside the case where the flash hole was drilled or punched (via bore scope with 45 degree mirror removed), if there were any i would debur the inside flash hole for all of them (never happened yet with Lapua or Alpha, fairly common for Hornady and Winchester, still have to try Peterson), and then fire form them with a soft lead core bullet seated to a very hard jam with max neck tension and a medium to low powder charge (trying to avoid stretching close to the web, want the case head against the bolt face).
Only bought premium brass (Lapua and Alpha), check for bent necks (FL sized these, remainder was loaded as it came out of the box), measure the length of all the cases, cull any exceptionally short cases (rare), then cut them all to the same length (often 5 thou shorter than trim length, because my batch of Lapua brass had many short ones, undesirable as it leaves more room for the carbon ring to form), then debur and chamfer the necks, brush out the necks (to remove debris), then weight sorted them into batches of typically 1.0 grains (of course, after trimming to the same length), checked the neck thickness with a ball micrometer and then culled any brass that had neck thickness variation of more than 0.001” (1 thou), sorted them in descending weight order, serialized the cases (small number engraved on the side close to the web so i can keep track of repeat offenders, prevent brass batches from getting mixed up), neck turned the brass that made the grade, cut the primer pockets to the same dept, inspected 10 or so samples looking for a bur inside the case where the flash hole was drilled or punched (via bore scope with 45 degree mirror removed), if there were any i would debur the inside flash hole for all of them (never happened yet with Lapua or Alpha, fairly common for Hornady and Winchester, still have to try Peterson), and then fire form them with a soft lead core bullet seated to a very hard jam with max neck tension and a medium to low powder charge (trying to avoid stretching close to the web, want the case head against the bolt face).

Subsequent reloads:

Deprime (on a dedicated depriming die), tumble for 2 hours with solvent and Nushine car wax (to avoid bullet weld, saw an improvement as there are less sticky cases when i reseat, but still present, now trying fresh corn cob with no additives), measure and trim to length only if the case needs it, chamfer and debur, cut primer hole again to correct dept, which mostly removes carbon but occasionally cuts brass a tiny amount (brass that migrated into the primer hole making it shallower than before), clean remaining carbon out if anything is left over with a wire brush, brush inside of case with a mn oversize nylon brush to remove debris and loose carbon flakes via Lyman case prep center, use Imperial sizing wax and FL size via Redding Type S die with the button left in (possibly controversial), aim dor 1.5 to 2 thiy shoulder bump, measure to confirm (but have now switched to Whidden non-bushing die - pick a sizing button that gives me high neck tension 2.5 - 3 thou, enough for seating force to be high at 100-120 lbs), tumble again to remove Imperial sizing wax, either gas flame anneal (or use AMP machine, which makes the surface finish on the outside neck feeling more “scratchy”, it gets a higher coefficient of friction, and it burns off the Nushine car wax, so sometimes tumbled a third time to remove the rough surface finish and put the wax back on!), seat the primer until it bottoms out and put the same amount of force on it (by feel), weigh powder to 0.04 gn accuracy (plus or minus two kernels of powder), seat vis inline Wilson seater and an arbor press. Measure base to ogive with the Hornady insert, on an accurate vernier. Reseat with more violence if needed by tapping the handle hard multiple times (often the case, a disadvantage of an inline die), put on the ammo case in order (based on serial number), so groups of 5 cases have a weight range of 0.15 gn or less (yes i know, total overkill). Fire ammo into groups of 5, record SD and ES per group of 5 and group size (vis Ballstic-X app) when doing load develipment (looking for a node), also record ES and SD and aggregate group size for the entire batch of 50 if they are all loaded the same.

Yeah i know, total OCD mode, and not sure i have seen an adequate return on this investment in time and kit. Now working on reducing steps to speed up the loading process by 2x or more....
 
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pick a sizing button that gives me high neck tension 2.5 - 3 thou, enough for seating force to be high at 100-120 lbs), tumble again to remove Imperial sizing wax, seat the primer until it bottoms out and put the same amount of force on it (by feel), weigh powder to 0.04 gn accuracy (plus or minus two kernels of powder), seat vis inline Wilson seater and an arbor press. Measure base to ogive with the Hornady insert, on an accurate vernier. Reseat with more violence if needed by tapping the handle hard multiple times

Now that there is a Wilson seater for the 6 BRA, I'm considering getting an arbor press (though still no 300 PRC die to my knowledge). For now, I seat bullets with my index and middle finger and light pressure. 100-120 lbs seems high to me.

When I did neck tension groups on my 300, I found that lower tension gave me better results.

Questions:

Why are you going for the higher neck tension?

Also, is there a reason you didn't want to go with a bushing sizing die?
 
Replied below:

“Now that there is a Wilson seater for the 6 BRA, I'm considering getting an arbor press (though still no 300 PRC die to my knowledge).”

N: Straightest seater i have come across, but i have not tried them all... In the batch of 50 i loaded on Saterday, at least 80% had runout under 0.001” (1 thou), around 8 were between 1 and 1.5 thou, and two were rejected because they got to 2.5 thou (likely two cases i dropped on the concrete floor). I should probably stop doing that!

N: I believe you can ask whoever cut your 300 PRC chamber to order a Wilson blank die and cut the hole with the same spec reamer... maybe speak to the folks at Wilson, they might be able to do it.

“For now, I seat bullets with my index and middle finger and light pressure. 100-120 lbs seems high to me.”

N: Yes a 100 lbs is really very high. Not my usual preference. I used to get away with 12-20 lbs. At 6 lbs you can pull the bullet out of the case by hand.

N: I had / still have a superb Savage 12 in 6.5 CM that could routinely do 0.25-0.35” five shot groups with Berger Hybrid 140’s, and it liked very very light neck tension, just enough for the bullet not to rotate. It always performed at its best with the Berger 140 Hybrids, outperforming the Hornady and Nosler RDF alternatives. So i have a preference (bias!) for Berger... so i wanted the MPA gun to run with Bergers if possible!

For the MPA comp gun, i initially tried light neck tension with the Hornady 140 ELDM’s and the Bergers Hybrid 140’s, the Hornady groups were good, and ES was OK, but the Berger ES numbers were quote poor, so even though the Berger load worked well at 100 it would not work at 600 or a 1000. So loaded Bergers to mag length, COAL of 2.8”, (which would have been a workable small 5-15 thou jump for ELDM bullets), but this is a massive jump for the very pointy Berger 140 Hybrid. [I will need to shoot whatever ammo i end up with from the Pmag magazine if i try to compete with it, and wanted the bullets to remain more sturdy and not move during recoil.]

So for better or worse, i started to experiment with pointy Berger Hybrid bullets loaded much shorter than ideal (loaded to mag length, not optimized at all, with a very long jump), and the only way to get good SD’s seemed to be high neck tension... until it got so high the case neck cut off the pressure ring... game over!

It seems to me the gun is throated for Hornady ELDM bullets, and the Bergers are not going to work well, unless you hand feed them... not practical for a comp gun!

“When I did neck tension groups on my 300, I found that lower tension gave me better results.”

N: Agrees with my prior experience with two 6.5 CM barrels...


Questions:

Why are you going for the higher neck tension?

N: See above.

Also, is there a reason you didn't want to go with a bushing sizing die?

N: Managed to get 30 reloads out of the latest batch of Lapua SRP brass (mostly via neck sizing, FL sized every 3 reloads), but after about 15 total reloads a tiny donut formed at the false shoulder where the bushing stops sizing the neck. BTW: This never happend with the Nosler LRP brass, as it would die before 12 reloads. So i cut out the donut with an inside neck reamer (also Wilson), but that made the surface area very rough, and i had to use fine steel wool to polish it. And that removed all the carbon from the inside of the neck. Would prefer not to fight the donut, and not to ever have to ream the necks! So started looking into FL sizers that sized the entire neck. [Yes a donut can still form at the shoulder/neck junction, but the bullet never touches this area, so a better approach.]
 
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Keep doing what you're doing and see where it ends up. I get an SD of 5-6 with my 300 PRC...

Got this load optimized for powder charge and seating depth today:

Speed values for the winning 0.35” five shot group were: 2723, 2724, 2722, 2716, 2719.

A very good load for single feeding, but no use for PRS or NRL competition....

Will have to switch to Hornady 140 ELD-M... to get the ammo to feed from the mag.


06B5E887-5F5E-4B6F-A158-5A6E56366D7B.jpeg

DAE324E9-72C8-4788-9428-D0BE8337C4B4.png
 
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Loaded 5 rounds in increments of 0.15 gn. Stats for the session:

Average Speed / SD / ES

2776 / 16.8 / 38
2764 / 15.2 / 43
2759 / 17.2 / 41
2748 / 22 / 48
2744 / 9.8 / 22
2741 / 12.4 / 32
2838 / 11.9 / 27

2729 / 3.3 / 8 [Best group, yes ES = eight fps, yeah! Also the best group size at 0.35”. Variable wind.]

2724 / 7.8 / 17

My conclusion is that the rifle was specifically throated for the Hornady 140 ELD-M.

Soooo..... it seems I was trying to drive a square peg into a round hole using a lot of force (120 lbs!), and it almost worked: The Berger Hybrid can be loaded with a very long (0.110”) jump to fit mag length, but ES will then hover around 32-36 in this gun, with SD around 8-13 fps depending on powder charge. Moderately good, but not great.

Will now try the round peg (Hornady 140) and see what happens. Maybe i can find a truly good load before i burn out the barrel... ?

I also need to keep an eye on bullet weld and reseat the day of the range session.
 
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Thanks to everybody who jumped in to help. The hint that the chamber is cut for a tangent bullet put me on the right track.

The other crucial comment was that crimping is just another way to delay bullet exit, helping to line it up with OBT/optimal bullet time ranges, and that different seating depth can accomplish the same.

Lesson learned: Just because a bullet works like a champ in one rifle does not mean it is ideal for another rifle that has a very different chamber!

Or in reverse: If you want to use a particular favorite bullet in a new gun, ask your gunsmith to cut the chamber for that particular projectile.... and pay the extra money with a smile, because you will save more than the chambering fee in wasted components and wasted barrel life.... and your free time is worth something too.

And if you buy a gun “off the rack” you will obviously like the zero wait time, but then you will have to experiment and see what the gun likes, burning up barrel life, and then you will just have to live with whatever you discover! Not really a time saving in the end either. [Then again, the dealer told me “just replicate the Hornady factory 140 ELDM match load, and be done”.... but of course i know better!]

I think it is “case closed” for now. Thanks to all of you who contributed!! You guys know a lot!
 
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PS: Today’s best Berger Hybrid groups with 15 thou and 20 thou jump: 0.35” and 0.58” all five shot groups at 100. SDs of 7 and 9 fps.

This load is done. So 0.015” jump it is then.


DB8D93AF-08DE-4D0E-9631-DFF55B37FC73.jpeg
 
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