Advanced Marksmanship Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

[ShtrRdy]

With the colder temps I'm wearing more clothes to the range. Like a sweatshirt and a medium weight jacket. It seems my shots are impacting about 1/2" high at 100 yds from when I was shooting this past summer.

Is this something that can happen or are my shooting fundamentals lacking?

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

What you wear does not affect the rifle or the ammunition.

 

[VJJPunisher]

try it nekkid to verify

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

try it nekkid to verify

This guy doesn't know how lucky he is: When my wife tells me that I don't look good in what I am wearing I don't even get a point of impact. ?

 

[smokebomb]

Bulky clothing creates more "free space" between the buttpad and shoulder. More room for recoil certainly can cause a varied POI, all else being the same.

As for cures to this, I haven't found one other than compensating with sights. I'm sure someone will recite NPA, square shoulders...etc; but that doesn't change the fact that there is a distinct rifle recoil difference when shooting with a tshirt and bone 1/8" from buttpad vs a tshirt, sweatshirt and parka and bone 1" from the buttpad.

My personal experience has been an average of under 1/2moa...I just dial down .1 mil.

 

[Graham]

My personal experience has been an average of under 1/2moa...I just dial down .1 mil.

Do you record in your logbook what clothes you were wearing when you zeroed the rifle?

 

[Centuriator]

I zero in the nude and get clothing density options from my Kestrel and dress accordingly

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

Occasionally, in the heat of battle, I will throw on my Parka and miss a shot.

 

[cornhusker]

lmao what I do if it is real cold,is wear a jacket and leave it open enough to get the rifle
butt inside and on my t shirt....Works for me....Sometime with thick clothing
one has the tendensity to creep up on the scope..so practice..will tell you more..
if your shooting for group and practice,I would leave the scope adjustment alone
and just shoot..

 

[ShtrRdy]

Do you record in your logbook what clothes you were wearing when you zeroed the rifle?

I do now....

 

[DIBBS]

This guy doesn't know how lucky he is: When my wife tells me that I don't look good in what I am wearing I don't even get a point of impact. ?

My wife says "What do you think you're going to do with THAT!!!! (...oh nothing I guess, dear)

 

[Sterling Shooter]

With the colder temps I'm wearing more clothes to the range. Like a sweatshirt and a medium weight jacket. It seems my shots are impacting about 1/2" high at 100 yds from when I was shooting this past summer.

Is this something that can happen or are my shooting fundamentals lacking?

First, it is indeed something that will happen when anything disturbs the shot to shot relationship between shooter, gun, and ground. Think about it, if the angle/arc between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit is divergent between shots, as caused by inconsistent recoil resistance created by a change of position, clothing, or other, then shot to shot point of impact will be divergent too. Since the divergence is usually miniscule, at relatively short distances the shooter will not need to be concerned; however, since this sort of shooter error is angular, at long distance the effect of disturbed clothing, position, or whatever can produce results which the call/strike corollary suggests is a failure to counter for wind correctly, which leads to other inevitable errors.

Attempting to make the position "Princess And The Pea" perfect or exactly the same for all shots in a string of fire at short range will eventually help the shooter realize how important consistency actually is to getting great results or realizing zero dispersion. When I make the effort I can hold under a half inch on twenty round strings with irons at one hundred yards; and, although this feat is not meaningful outside of bullseye competitions, it does tend to help me have very high X counts to better assure wins in close matches.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

Sterling,

This Thread is far less than another opportunity to restate your "shooter, gun and ground" post.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

So what! The OP may be interested. I don't care what you think of it. And remember, what's important to good shooting (what you have heard before) is all new to a novice shooter. I think your help to the OP BTW was simply brilliant.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

When I make the effort I can hold under a half inch on twenty round strings with irons at one hundred yards;

So what! The OP may be interested.

He might be. I am hoping that he is.

 

[OptedOut]

I did a training class with the "Arctic Warriors" (Alaska) a few years ago and wearing the ECWCS GEN III system I couldn't get my hand up to the grip of my rifle if I tried to shoulder it. Few of us could and it was hilarious.
Reminded me of the movie 'A Christmas Story' and the little brother in the snow suit!

 

[Centuriator]

He might be. I am hoping that he is.

23,903 posts in six years = awesome.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

23,903 posts in six years = awesome.

That's not an accurate number. Giving me twenty-something thousand posts was Frank's idea of a joke after people starting making bogus criticisms based on post counts.

I should ask that it be permanently changed to 101... That way the number would be Orwellian, yet I could still sell stuff.

 

[Strykervet]

As for useful comments, Sterling Shooter pretty much nailed it. He preaches the doctrine when it comes to this, I know he does, and the shit he says on here isn't the first time I've heard it or said it myself.

A lot of guys shoot in a jacket when using a sling regardless of weather. Mostly to assist in getting the sling tighter, it's more comfortable with a jacket when you're trussed up like that. Since shooting is about eliminating variables, doing things consistently the same every time is key, the things that you can.

Whatever you do, always do it the same. Consistency is key.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

As for useful comments, Sterling Shooter pretty much nailed it. He preaches the doctrine when it comes to this, ... Consistency is key.

Repetitive preaching goes a lot further when one knows the audience.

The OP isn't necessarily shooting NRA high-power with a jacket and sling. Sterling's comments would have been useful for that discipline. But here, use of the stock might not even be relevant to the zero change.

Stryker, you are correct, consistency is the key, but here the consistency necessary to maintain zero has nothing to do with shooter, gun and ground. A consistent image behind the scope is all that is required.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Wow, you guys have been busy today! I appreciate helpful comments from Sterling. I didn't get too much help from Graham.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

I appreciate helpful comments from Sterling. I didn't get too much help from Graham.

Respectfully, you wouldn't know the difference.

I can't spoon-feed you much more than I already have. If you want to take up NRA high-power shooting in order to figure out an otherwise very simple thing, then by all means have at it. See you in twenty years.

 

[smokebomb]

Repetitive preaching goes a lot further when one knows the audience.

The OP isn't necessarily shooting NRA high-power with a jacket and sling. Sterling's comments would have been useful for that discipline. But here, use of the stock might not even be relevant to the zero change.

Stryker, you are correct, consistency is the key, but here the consistency necessary to maintain zero has nothing to do with shooter, gun and ground. A consistent image behind the scope is all that is required.

I usually find good merit to Graham's posts if I'm smart enough to read between the lines. I respectfully disagree this occassion however.

A "zero" is dependent upon the method obtained. Zeroing with a sling prone vs zeroing off a bipod vs zeroing off sand bags all can have differing points of impact in relation to eachother.

In the same way, a zero obtained via "free recoil" and a zero obtained via a firm hold or lead sled (for non-shooters); How then, taking the range of free recoil to firm hold, would the change in recoil pressure NOT differ from summer apparel to winter apparel?

To Graham's earlier question, I do document temperature and time of year. It has been my finding that wearing appropriate clothing for sub 32*F weather (or around there) that a tshirt/sweater/jacket combo accounts for approx. 0.1 mil higher impact (all other environmental variables accounted for to the best of my capabilities). Am I a 0.36" shooter under all conditions...no. But the advantage of good logging and high round count shows statistical evidence.

Graham, I haven't been to South Kent yet. Maybe we should meet this winter and test this theory non-partisan? I'm up for it if you are.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

A "zero" is dependent upon the method obtained. Zeroing with a sling prone vs zeroing off a bipod vs zeroing off sand bags all can have differing points of impact in relation to each other.

I'm so glad you posted that. Because now we come to the to crux of the issue....

We all understand that there can be measurable differences in resulting POI when shooting off a bench versus shooting free-recoil off a bi pod, or shooting prone versus using a Led Sled. Like Sterling correctly says, involving the shooter behind the rifle and his reaction to the recoil process is integral to the system - when you initially zero.

But is maintaining that zero all about the "relationship between the shooter, gun and ground"? Maybe if you are shooting NRA high power and using three completely different zeros, but even then I suspect other reasons.

Because if what you say about a zero being method dependent is correct, and we're not even talking about clothing choice at this point, every time you shot your rifle from any position other than the one you used to zero the zero would change. And we know that this doesn't happen.

Because if that were true, then how do people hit anything with their rifles? When you suddenly have to shoot standing in a practical rifle match, or snap-shoot a deer, do you look-up the recorded zero deviation between prone and standing according your logbook, then enter a mechanical correction? Of course not (that is, unless maybe if you are shooting the same COF on a known range with the same equipment using iron sights and a particular discipline to accomplish it).

As a practical exercise I suggest you try this: Take your folding stock rifle and zero it prone. Then fold the stock. Concentrate on getting a proper sight picture behind the eye box of the scope each time and shoot a group that way - with no cheek rest and no shoulder contact. What is the difference between the POI of both groups?

Here's what we did at Rifles Only, circa 2011: Jacob zeroed his 300WM. Each of eleven students and three instructors then got behind the rifle and shot a group with it. POI was calculated as a deviation from Jacob's POA for each person. What was the deviation, as a percentage? I don't remember. Lindy did the math. If I can't get in touch with Lindy or Jacob maybe I can get Frank to chime in. But when I get the answer, remember, this was a deviation between different people, not the same person.

Personally, I have seen my zero noticeably change when I shoot behind the same rifle for two or three days, with the same clothing, but that's entirely another matter.

It's not about the clothing.

 

[dylanmj]

If you fully ingest what Graham and Sterling are saying, I think you will find that they are saying the same thing but highlighting different points. Clothing will not change the relationship of the rifle and the bullet (per Graham), ever- it just isn't a variable in the relationship of those things. Sterling is pointing out that thicker clothing can amplify shooter errors, and thus is a good tool to reference whether your technique is more or less affected by such variables.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

I knew I had this archived somewhere:

1) Jacob's rifle.
2) Jacob's zero on his rifle.
3) I take his rifle, with his zero on it, pick it up and shoot it at 300 yards (wearing my own clothing, I might add).

This is the result:



And this is the math:



Does what I am wearing make a difference?

What about if we took most of the shooter element out of it by bringing the distance in to 100 yards where the shooter isn't much of the equation?

Then what if I used my own rifle at 100 yards with my own zero on it?

 

[bogeybrown]

I can attest from experience that what you wear will affect POI with a service rifle as Sterling has said.
Fortunately I'm in the deep south when I'm CONUS, so I can choose to shoot on winter days when I don't need to bundle up and therefore don't have the first-hand experience with my scoped rifles to say one way or another, but the fact that I've seen and recorded it with open sights leaves me open to the possibility that you may experience the effect while using a scope.

EDIT: I realized when I posted the above that it may have come across as though I was denying the sound points raised by Graham, which was not my intent. I was simply trying to convey to the OP that yes, under certain circumstances a POI shift may occur. That could be caused by a number of factors, including the additional clothing restricting movement and forcing the shooter to muscle the rifle or break down other fundamentals causing the shift, etc. With an A2 rifle I think a large portion is the extra equipment or clothing altering my position on a rifle (stock weld, eye relief) and forcing me to compensate the rest of my position, thereby changing my relationship with the rifle and consequently my POI.

 

[Graham]

Does the amount of clothing affect POI?

Sure it will:

Service rifle or match rifle class
Slung-up with leather shooting jacket
Iron sights
NRA high power discipline
NRA rules
Same square range
Same course of fire
Shot the same way each time

I'll buy that: Taking off the jacket will now alter your zero.

But then, I would also believe it if you told me that moving your support hand three inches forward alters your zero, or slinging-up higher on the bicep will alter your zero, or how hard you hold the rifle alters your zero. Heck, these guys add one left windage adjustment at 600 to compensate for the particular way that they pull the trigger when in position.

Why? Because their 'zero' is for doing the exact same thing the exact same way every time. If they bend a leg too much in sitting position and it puts pressure on the diaphragm their 'zero' reportedly ''changes' unless they fart to release the tension.

Note the important question/difference here: What does it mean for the definition of 'zero' that we shoot a 1" dot with an optic and they shoot a large bull with irons?

And, by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not putting down NRA high power shooters: We owe them a great debt for our understanding of sport shooting and for getting all of us where we are today with our rifles. But, in my case, that debt was paid in the 1980s.

NRA competition is still valid today. These guys are undoubtedly some of the best technical shooters in the world. But the world has changed.

 

[hlee]

When I make the effort I can hold under a half inch on twenty round strings with irons at one hundred yards; and, although this feat is not meaningful outside of bullseye competitions, it does tend to help me have very high X counts to better assure wins in close matches.

This is by all accounts exceptional shooting, and based on reputation I would expect no less. However, I have read this whole thread and I think that I have come to the crux of the difference between that Sterling Shooter and Graham are saying. To paraphrase Graham, "What is the definition of zero being discussed?" For Sterling Shooter, zero may well be putting 20 shots wholely within a dime sized circle at 100 yards, with iron sights, using no mechanical support (bipod, sandbag, etc). I have every confidence that he would be equal to the challenge with a scoped rifle as well. But, for many of us here "zero" is a 1" group (measured from the bullet whole centers) for 5 shots using a bipod to support the forend and a sand bag to support the stock.

The former requires not only a consistent sight alignment but a level of precision in building a position that many can/will not attain. The latter merely requires the shooter align the sight properly to the target and squeeze the trigger (ok, you still need a good position but the absolute consistency component is much lower).

As Sterling Shooter has written on more than one occasion, scopes and mechanical supports are merely crutches that mask lapses in marksmanship (paraphrased).

I sight in my hunting rifles in the summer from a wooden bench, on a square range, using sand bags for support both fore and rear. I have never missed my mark (at least due to a shifting POA) in the middle of winter when shooting supported by truck hoods, leaned over stumps, using shooting sticks, shooting out of "deer blinds," using tree limbs and trunks for support, or using a myriad of other improvised supports.

I look at this like the scope level argument. Yes, there is likely an effect that can be measured (or at least calculated). But, it is generally too small for most of us to get worked up about.