DONE with H4350

[ahhshoot]

Well, I bought into the hype about H4350 a while back. 'Extreme,' they said. Loaded up my .260 with 42.8gr sending a 139 Scenar at 2850 fps downrange this weekend yielded four blown primers and cost me one ejector spring. This is a load that worked well in other climates but apparently due to temperature this was now too 'hot.'

Wasn't just me. Two other guys at the range down here in Florida had stuck ejectors with the same powder in loads they were typically OK with.

A while back I bought IMR 4350 for my 6.5 Creedmoor. I found it to be a good bit MORE accurate than H4350 in a good bit of temperatures. Buddy of mine shot his 6.5 CM this weekend and no pressure issues with IMR 4350. Not sure why IMR is outperforming H4350 in at least 4 different guns that we've tried it in when it's much easier to find and cheaper, let alone not 'extreme.'

I don't think it has to do with the extruding, as another .260 I shot with Varget and 130 Bergers shot a sub 2" 5 shot group at 600 yards with a custom savage. Maybe the H4350 had some QC issues when the demand was as extreme as the powder is supposed to be.

But again, I'm going back with IMR.

Any others here experience this?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It certainly isn't the end all be all but it works well for a lot of cartridges. The faster pressure curve is what is causing your blown primers, something in the RL19-4831 range is about right for 260 and 140gr projectiles with 24-26" barrels. It does work great in 6.5 creedmoor though due the the slightly lower case capacity, RL17 works great too and isn't very temp sensitive, also gives higher volocity with the same pressure due to being a double based powder. Lot to lot consistency isn't the best though so buy in bulk and reconfirm every time you change lots.

IMR 4350 and 4831 are some of the worst for temp sensitivity, you will see huge velocity swings going for freezing to 100 degrees. It's pretty consistent so as long as you develop in the heat to make sure you're ok there it will stay consistent. You will see a 80-125 FPS swing in a 70 degree temp change though. I've had it drop me out of nodes and just be super slow so I not longer use any IMR powders aside from trail boss. 4064 isn't bad for 308 but everything else IMR I don't touch because of the temp sensitivity.

 

[glock24]

Reloader 17 is about the only other powder worth trying

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/163708-reloader-17-question.html

 

[ArmyJerry]

Yeah h 4350 sucks, spread the word please

 

[0311@LAR]

Good. More for me. On a more serious note, did you change lots of powder or anything like that?

 

[ArmyJerry]

I tried all the alternative powders, I found that putting the bullet too close to the lands will give me loose primers. No other powder shoots as well in my rifle, its an 8 twist 260, same with my 30/06 only likes the H but does decent with the IMR shooting 190's.

 

[brutus895]

Yeah h 4350 sucks, spread the word please

Lol, wish more people thought it sucked.

 

[Abq-Defense]

Good. More for me. On a more serious note, did you change lots of powder or anything like that?

This is a great question. The last time I switched lots of H1000, the velocity went way up. I had to drop my powder charge to get back into my node.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

"Extreme" doesn't mean a load on the edge @ 70° will be OK at 95°, in a black magazine baking in the bright Florida sun all day.

Extreme means temp sensitivity is reduced, not eliminated.

I developed a nice moderate load with H4350, berger 105 @ 3125 for my rifle, chambered in 243, and didn't have the slightest hint of pressure @ K&M this weekend.

 

[Assault116]

This is a great question. The last time I switched lots of H1000, the velocity went way up. I had to drop my powder charge to get back into my node.

Yeap, I've had this problem with recent lots of H4350 too. I had a load that ran ridiculous velocities (3150) out of my 260 with 123 gr Scenars and was stable and without pressure issues. Switched lots, and now it's too hot, so I reduced the charge to get to the same velocities without pressure issues @ about 80° F. Then had them at a match and the temp went up over 100° and I ended up shooting about half the match with a stuck ejector and ruined about 50 pieces of Lapua brass because of it.

Strangely with a smaller charge and the 139 gr Scenar, the same lot of powder is consistent and stable, no pressure issues even when the temp soars into triple digits and the Velocity stays within about 15 fps. This is also the upper node on my rifle before I see pressure. So I just put up the 123's for winter time shooting only, I'll use them up and then just stick to the heavies.

I guess part of it could be that the load for the 123's is a little closer to pressure issues, or possibly the larger volume of powder makes it all more sensitive, but I just know that 1 lot worked fine, even when it got hot, and the current lot I'm running does not with that particular load. eh oh well. Still the best shooting powder out of my rifle.

 

[Steel head]

Yeah h 4350 sucks, spread the word please

This!
LOL!

Another powder to try is H100V.

I'm at the gun club now.
43.8 of H4350 and 140's.
It's 90-+ and even with the cases in the sun next to me my primers look great and not a peep of ejector marks.

 

[pawprint2]

Yeap, I've had this problem with recent lots of H4350 too. I had a load that ran ridiculous velocities (3150) out of my 260 with 123 gr Scenars and was stable and without pressure issues. Switched lots, and now it's too hot, so I reduced the charge to get to the same velocities without pressure issues @ about 80° F. Then had them at a match and the temp went up over 100° and I ended up shooting about half the match with a stuck ejector and ruined about 50 pieces of Lapua brass because of it.

Strangely with a smaller charge and the 139 gr Scenar, the same lot of powder is consistent and stable, no pressure issues even when the temp soars into triple digits and the Velocity stays within about 15 fps. This is also the upper node on my rifle before I see pressure. So I just put up the 123's for winter time shooting only, I'll use them up and then just stick to the heavies.

I guess part of it could be that the load for the 123's is a little closer to pressure issues, or possibly the larger volume of powder makes it all more sensitive, but I just know that 1 lot worked fine, even when it got hot, and the current lot I'm running does not with that particular load. eh oh well. Still the best shooting powder out of my rifle.

I am really Glad to see some guys are keeping lot numbers! And keeping track of what one lot does vs. another. I'm always amazed by those that don't feel there is any benefit to keeping lot numbers for their powder/bullets/primers/cases/ etc., it only takes 2 seconds, and may come in very handy sometime!!!

 

[Assault116]

I am really Glad to see some guys are keeping lot numbers! And keeping track of what one lot does vs. another. I'm always amazed by those that don't feel there is any benefit to keeping lot numbers for their powder/bullets/primers/cases/ etc., it only takes 2 seconds, and may come in very handy sometime!!!

Yeah but I'm almost as OCD as a bench-rester with my hand loading. I even save all my test targets in a 3 ring binder, along with a monstrous excel file for all my load data and shot logs for my barrels

 

[pawprint2]

Yeah but I'm almost as OCD as a bench-rester with my hand loading. I even save all my test targets in a 3 ring binder, along with a monstrous excel file for all my load data and shot logs for my barrels

I know what you mean, however; for me it's about making the best ammo I can, not about quantity. I have a number of 308's, and have found one really likes a given lot of varget, luckily for me I usually buy more than one jug at a time, I'm sure as a bench rester, you've run into some lot differences in V-133 from time to time. BTW, there's a lot of knowledge stored in your three rings binders! Good shooting.

 

[steve123]

I've had similar happen with H-1000, H4350 and H4895.

Learned that when I get a new 8lb jug I work up a load for it and start over with a new ladder when I get another jug. Best to buy bunch of the same lot# if it can be afforded.

I'll take the burn rate inconsistency vs the temp sensitivity of the other powders.

 

[Adam B]

"Extreme" doesn't mean a load on the edge @ 70° will be OK at 95°, in a black magazine baking in the bright Florida sun all day.

Extreme means temp sensitivity is reduced, not eliminated.

I developed a nice moderate load with H4350, berger 105 @ 3125 for my rifle, chambered in 243, and didn't have the slightest hint of pressure @ K&M this weekend.

did you say you were shooting a 243? That must be a typo

 

[pawprint2]

Why is that a typo? Sierra lists 2900fps, with a 22in barrel, with IMR 4350. And this a very safe load, OAL 2.265.

 

[Adam B]

it's a typo because he normally doesn't shoot a 243, he shoots a 6mm SLR

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

it's a typo because he normally doesn't shoot a 243, he shoots a 6mm SLR

It was just easier to say 243. They're basically the same thing but everyone knows what a 243 is.

 

[pawprint2]

That answered my question!!! Thanks for the post.

 

[tylerw02]

I've used powder from two lots in my most recent .260 barrel running 140s, no noticeable change in velocity---I was able to make hits all the way out with the same dope after changing lots.

I actually pierced primers initially on a hot day with my AI, but after adjusting the firing pin it went away.

Were all of these four rifles fairly new? How close were they to the lands? .260s can really spike in pressure with bullets close to the lands. Did you work these loads up, or pick a random load or use the IMR charge weight? You should really work up.




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[ahhshoot]

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers here. My intention was not to draw negativity towards Hodgdon's name, as I indicated in the initial post we had FANTASTIC results with Varget and IMR4350, and from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong please), Hodgdon owns IMR anyway. I was frustrated at the results I had with H4350 in relation to the expectations-and as HodgdonExtreme pointed out there was some difference in temperature between the initial testing of this load and the conditions in which we used it Saturday. All the guns were fairly new, less than 300 rounds on all of them. So again, I apologize to Hodgdon and yes realize there are other variables at play here. I am going to stick with IMR in my rig and hope to not see any huge temp swings any time soon and thanks to all who chimed in.

EDIT: Also got some advice on some other powders to try which wasn't expected but is appreciated. Again thanks to all who chimed in.

 

[Steel head]

I've tried about 6 powders with 260 with H4350 easily beating the others for accuracy so now I'm a H4350 fan boy and easily offended LOL!
That means squat as every rifle is different.
Some others I've tried being H100V, R 17-19-22, H4831sc, 4007ssc( great for the 100/107's) and 7829ssc.

 

[7mmSTW]

When I have the chance I do my load work up during the summer, this has worked well for me over the years. A long time ago I worked up a load for my STW when it was super cold and they were noticeably hotter when the temps went up. Ever since then I have made it a rule to do any testing in the heat, especially when looking for a max load with a new lot.

 

[tylerw02]

I don't think anybody is offended, rather people want to help you solve your problem. Your experience is far different than the norm, especially considering that there are four rifles in question.

If IMR4350 is working, roll with it. Though you will ultimately find it's more temperature sensitive.


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[GhengisAhn175]

DONE with H4350

Give me all your h4350

Problem solved, problem staying solved. RLTW!

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[deadnbrkn84]

I was there this weekend at K&M also. I don't care what powder you were running if you left a black mag in the sun they were almost to hot to pick up (I did and dropped it) you were going to get a pressure spike from those rounds laying in the sun. I shoot 4831sc and I'm WAY under pressure and I had heavy bolt lift on a round from a mag that had been sitting in the sun. IMR's are much more temp sensitive then Hodgdon's extreme line. I personally don't care what you chose but this isn't scientific. If I were a betting man I'd say you left your rounds in the run and your buddies did not.

PS I think I laid on one of your primers on the concrete 800yd slab

 

[cottonant]

I changed H4350 lots about a month ago. Velocities spiked about 50 fps and the temps do seem to have much more of an effect on this lot than the old lot. 42.3 of this new lot is pushing 140 VLDs a little faster than 43.0 of the old lot.

 

[lawman29]

ahhshoot,

Regarding who owns what; Hodgdon does not make smokeless powder, they do currently 'own' the label for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester and distribute it. Last year I posted the following regarding who makes powder:

General Dynamics purchased Olin/Winchester etc and produces the following spherical/ball & single base powders: In Quebec, Canada IMR 3031, 4007ssc, 4064, 4198, 4227, 4320, 4350, SR4756, SR4759, 4831, 4895, SR7625, 7828, PB & 7828ssc, and in St. Marks, Florida Hodgdons HP38, 110, 414, 380, Lil'gun, Hybrid100v, HS-6, H335, BL-c(2), titewad, titegroup, longshot, leverevolution, cfe223, us869, superperformance and also Winchester 231, 296, supertarget, superfield, aalite, superhandicap, 760, 748, supreme 780, auto comp.

The Thales Group (French company) purchased Australian defense industries in 2006. They produce in Australia Hodgdons Extruded line H4895, 4198, Varget, 4350, 50bmg, 4831/4831sc, 1000, retumbo, 322, benchmark, trail boss, 8208xbr, also H4227 (AR2215)(not distributing H4227 in US anymore).

Group SNPE (French owned again...) formed a subsidary called EURENCO in 2004 they own most of the european powder produced in belgium, finland, france & sweden. This included Vihatavauri, ramshot and most of the norma line & alliant reloader line (except RL-17 switzerland/german?). In 2014 Vihatavauri was purchased by the Nammo Group (Norway govt 50% & Finland govt 50%).

The old alliant powders like red, blue, green dot, unique, bullseye, 2400 are still produced in the usa by ATK. Accurate arms powder??

 

[Sniper260]

My 260 loves h4350..

 

[Sherrick5]

Using H4350 for my .260, 43.5gr with 140amax, was getting 2900fps. changed lots, same 43.5gr is now getting 2950-2975fps with pressure signs... Switched to .308 palmas resized, getting 1915-35 depending on the temp that day (shade 50degrees to upper 90s in the sun). Pressure signs have gone...

Have 4 8lb kegs coming from midsouthshooters (backorder from april finally shipped today) so I'll see how much difference this lot will be.

 

[Steel head]

Using H4350 for my .260, 43.5gr with 140amax, was getting 2900fps. changed lots, same 43.5gr is now getting 2950-2975fps with pressure signs... Switched to .308 palmas resized, getting 1915-35 depending on the temp that day (shade 50degrees to upper 90s in the sun). Pressure signs have gone...

Have 4 8lb kegs coming from midsouthshooters (backorder from april finally shipped today) so I'll see how much difference this lot will be.

Those are some smokin speeds!
I'm curious as to how the newest stuff compares.

 

[djskit]

I've shot my 6.5 CR with 43.5 grains of H4350 with 139 Scenars in temps from 20 degrees to 115 with only very modest differences is speed (maybe 2 click low at 800 at 115).

That being said, in extreme weather, I keep my mags deep in my pack or on my person until the last minute.

That being said, I have a couple of newer jugs of 4350 that I have not tapped into and may just mix all I have together to avoid any lot-to-lot problems.