Fieldcraft Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

[jasonk]

I've got some friends, limited gun use, but they are embracing it and are moving forward. They as a couple bought a handgun for home and vehicle protection when needed, go CCW's, etc. They are moving in the right direction.

They are now interested in a long gun for both home protection and in their mind they want to be covered for SHTF and have the ability to harvest some meat laden food with it. They aren't likely to go take classes and shoot regularly enough that they'd be real handy with an AR, plus I think they want to keep the budget around $500 tops.

Here's the advice I'm going to give them, find flaws in it if any. Remington 887 Nitro Tactical, pump gun with Rem choke and a picatinny rail.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx

Now why this one?

Pump gun is easy to use. Lighter than the 870 tactical.

Can use light defense loads in the house for wife if needed. Bigger stuff for birds, deer, whatever.

Rem choke is MUCH better than a standard open cylinder on most HD shottys, have the option to switch chokes for taking fowl, deer, etc.

Picatinny rail will allow me to help them find a small red dot or 2x fixed scope that can go on and off. This would make the husband much more reliable at having a chance of hitting a deer with some 3.5 inch 00 buck.

So....any flaws in my logic? Next recommendation will be a blot action 22lr.

PS...I can't believe that I just started a thread with "SHTF" in the title...sad day.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

*I* would MUCH rather have a rifle over a SG.

Light loads, are just that - ESP against the bi-pedal persuasion.

Short of a mag fed 5.56 / 7.62x39 rifle for GP use, *I* would prefer a 30/30 lever gun.


Good luck

 

[223ai]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

Spot on, though I would encourage them to get comfortable with a rifle eventually, and it's tough to beat a mini-14 in 223 for simplicity and reliability, without being too Teddy Tactical.

Good thread Jason...you'll start a Zombie thread now, I suppose?

 

[Mattrmvpd]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

You mentioned what i was going to suggest.... I would look at a SEMI .22LR like a Ruger 10-22. With good shot placement, it will take care of whatever need arises.

Also... .22LR ammo is CHEAP... and you can carry a crap ton of it if needed.

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

My experience has been that buckshot patterns better out of cylinder than most chokes. If you want tight buckshot patterns the ammo is more important than the choke, Federal flitecontrol gives some seriously tight patterns for instance .

If I was hunting with a shotgun though, I would go with slugs, whichever grouped best in that particular gun.

If this is truly for SHTF purposes, then I think they are really looking for a rifle. ARs are not rocket science...after 30 minutes instruction with a slug gun and a scoped AR, my guess is they would be more successful hunting with an AR than the shotgun. Yes, more expensive, but much more appropriate in that scenario by far.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mm128</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mentioned what i was going to suggest.... I would look at a SEMI .22LR like a Ruger 10-22. With good shot placement, it will take care of whatever need arises.

Also... .22LR ammo is CHEAP... and you can carry a crap ton of it if needed.

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.) </div></div>

I would rather have a 22lr semi auto with a 9" twist, a bunch of 60 grain subsonic ammunition and a suppressor.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mm128</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mentioned what i was going to suggest.... I would look at a SEMI .22LR like a Ruger 10-22. With good shot placement, it will take care of whatever need arises.

Also... .22LR ammo is CHEAP... and you can carry a crap ton of it if needed.

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.) </div></div>

I would rather have a 22lr semi auto with a 9" twist, a bunch of 60 grain subsonic ammunition and a suppressor. </div></div>

Yea Craig but what happens if the SHTF before the BATF shits or gets off the pot on your form 4?

EDIT TO ADD:

Guess you'd be up shit's creek without a SHTF suppressor.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mm128</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mentioned what i was going to suggest.... I would look at a SEMI .22LR like a Ruger 10-22. With good shot placement, it will take care of whatever need arises.

Also... .22LR ammo is CHEAP... and you can carry a crap ton of it if needed.

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.) </div></div>



I would rather have a 22lr semi auto with a 9" twist, a bunch of 60 grain subsonic ammunition and a suppressor. </div></div>

Yea Craig but what happens if the SHTF before the BATF shits or gets off the pot on your form 4?

EDIT TO ADD:

Guess you'd be up shit's creek without a SHTF suppressor. </div></div>



That's an easy day cracker, you should not have waited, lol.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

870 express used with a 28" remchoke barrel.And a 18" cyl bore barrel.Keep the short barrel on for security but if you need to collect game you can run from full choke to rifled slug tube.

And a used 10/22 should come in well under $500 and covers allot of bases.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

I am a proponent of the shotgun for home defense, especially in the hands of a person that will not be expected to train a great deal.

Besides, the muzzleblast and fireball from a 16" barrel AR is quite severe when fired indoors, especially in limited space like a hallway.

You don't lose much with low recoil buckshot, show me the guy that laughed off getting hit with 8, 53 grain round lead balls instead of the 9 found in regular buckshot loads. A 12 gage slug will take any game in north america.

The problem with the 12 gage is the hefty recoil will be uncomfortable and intimidating for many shooters. Not to be sexist, but my experience is that many females and smaller men have a great deal of difficulty with it.

Price appears to be an issue, I recommend two entry level guns vice one higher priced gun, you'll see my reasoning, though you may not agree with it. Both guns together come to just over 500 dollars. In a true SHTF scenario, I think it would be better for both of them to have a gun they are comfortable with.

shotgun 1:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...59/Savage-Stevens+350+SEC+PUMP+12GA+18.5"+GRS

Comes with iron sights for use with the slugs, though it hampers wing shooting.

shotgun 2:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/produ...0+18.5+SPREADER

Much easier for the ladies and smaller gents. 3 inch buckshot loads are very impressive and would work very well inside the home also. There are numerous defense loads out there now that make these serious business.
They are also great for smaller game like rabbits squirrels, less shot to dig out.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

Savage 22/410:

The first two years I lived in Alaska, I lived in a little 12X18 cabin (I built) three miles north of Healy, near McKinley Park. I got laid off from the Railroad each winter and had zero income coming in.

I had several guns, and the means to reload for these guns, BUT, the gun I fed my family with was my Savage M-24 22/410.

You can talk about the SHTF crap all you want, but what it comes down to is feeding the family is what counts.

I used the 22 on snowshoe rabits, and the 410 on ptarmagin. And a few ducks thrown in.

No scope, just the open sights that came on the rifle.

Still got that gun and it will be the last I would get rid of (not that I'm gonna get rid of any of them).

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

Used AR15 upper.
Used lower.
.22 conversion kit.

12 or 20 gauge Handi Rifle.

In all realality both people should be armed.

Sorry, that's the cheapest route I'd go or recommend.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

For SHTF the 10/22 takes the bill on that one in as far as providing a hunting weapon. The Shotgun is good for home defense and bird hunting, but I'd suggest a Benelli semiauto. They are easy to maintain and recoil less, so the wife wouldn't have to use low power rounds. In reality the AR would be a better choice for both purposes. The concussion effect of firing a firearm indoors needs to be something that they both experience if possible with just about anything other than the 22.

 

[my human host]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

I think your logic is sound, but I would suggest adding an AR carbine down the road. Doesn't need to be tacticool. It needs to be light and easy to handle.

 

[Beef82]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

I think a shotgun is just about as much of a multi-tool as exists in the gun world. HD, small game, birds, big game, sporting clays, targets, even door breaching and small tree cutting, it happens, sometimes you have a need and no other means

. Pumps are affordable, simple to maintain and most are very reliable, about all they really lack is easily attainable compact models, and capacity. They're also cheap to feed for practice or small game hunting, $20ish for 100rnds, beat that with a non 22lr AR. 20ga is also a sound option for the recoil averse doesn't give up that much to the 12ga in most instances and newer slug rounds greatly extend useful range.

Both shotgun and AR platforms require significant training to use effectively, particularly as ranges increase such as large game hunting, ultimately the shotgun tends to require a better hunter for large game as it has much less range, but it is much easier to hit small moving/flying targets with.

I think for an affordable one gun option it beats the AR handily.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

When my son was about 8, I landed a nice little youth camo 20 ga 870 that was 3" capable. It is shorter and lighter than a regular 870 and now as he is well over 6ft and approaching 200lb that little Shotgun sets next to mommas bed.

 

[mt Al]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

IMHO Ruger 10/22 with a folding stock fits the bill and is like a gateway drug to get them into something different down the road. If his wife is normal size or small she'll hate shooting the shotgun and will, as a result, not feel comfortable shooting it regardless of the situation.

Practice is king if they want to be capable in SHTF. .22LR = tons of practice.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

My suggestion would be:

Ruger 10/22 rifle
(especially if you added a nice cheap Nikon or similar scope)

20 Gauge shotgun in pump
(I think the Mossberg Tactical Turkey would be a great one to get as it has the adjustable stock like an M4 so it can easily adjust to whoever is shooting & has fibre optic sights.)

Eventually they do need to get a decent not too fancy AR-15 style rifle or Mini-14 rifle, with a scope or holographic site, as that does double duty for defense and hunting.

The AR-15 with a scope or holographic / red dot optic is pretty easy for just about anyone to pickup and use with a bare minimum of instruction.

12 gauge shotgun and .243 or .308 bolt gun would be nice but could save that idea for after they have other stuff.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

It is kinda funny seeing the overwhelming acceptance of the "assault rifle" of the last decade. It wasnt that long ago that my grandfather said they were for drug dealers and various other criminal elements. Now he himself uses a RRA varmint for pdogs every year. Although tacticool, I dont think an AR is a good first purchase newbie shooter. Are they really going to shoot good ammo (probably not), are they going to practice malfunction drills to clear the shitty ammo they shoot (probably not).

I absolutely agree with the two gun setup, you never know when one will break down.

So my vote would be an older 10-22 factory setup (alloy triggerguard not plastic junk) they shoot decent, mags are cheap, stock accomodates small frame shooters, etc. Maybe a removeable scope setup (only used after irons skills are up, not as a crutch for poor shooting).

Then a pump 870 either gauge you deem acceptable, I dont feel limited by my 20ga, especially in real world hunting. I would feel comfortable shooting a deer with a good 20ga slug up to bow ranges.

Just my thoughts.

Ern

 

[Cserv]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

I agree with the shotgun. My wife is average sized, 5'7 140#'s, and her pistol is a G22 her rifle is a 270 and she can and does shoot my 12ga, even some slugs. Women are not as frail as we think sometimes. Being familiar and knowing what to expect from the platform goes a long way.
Eric

 

[2clicks]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

I've shot more critters with my 870 slug/vent rib combo than you could shake a stick at. The rifled slug barrel with rifle sights is a force to reckoned with. IMHO all the SHTF folks are forgetting an overlooked gem in the .17 caliber air rifle. I'm talking about a decent break action pump 1200 fps. My wife got me a Remington for my birthday a few years ago 50 yards it will kill rabbits and squirrels. No shit. Think about the benefits of one? like 500 pellets in a small can, quiet, low cost to reload. Thats a lot of critters for about 200 bucks. It's not very Tacticool though.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

i would go for the shotgun, a rifle is nice, but it's hard to beat a pump 12 ga for multi purpose. you've got buckshot for 2 and 4 legged critters, slugs if you need to get a little more distance, an assortment of fine shot for birds and other small game.

 

[culater]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

Tell them to get the ruger 10-22 take down.A small package that can be hidden in a backpack or on your body and very light.

 

[low_tech]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

shotguns, while useful in some situations. Are not a SHTF sort of deal. Using as a tool to hunt and savage(pun intended), close quarters defense, defend a barricaded perimeter, awesome tool. Eyes up, moving, in condition red, much better choices available.

Need an inexpensive rifle? Find a SKS, and put a decent stock on it. Pure utility. You can add a few useful items, like a peep site, and maybe a trigger job.

accurate enough to kill a deer/person sized target at 100+ yards, and absolutely designed to function no matter what, with
Not tacticool at all. Hugely functional.

Mini 14/ Mini 30, a little more money, pic your cartridge, pick your rifle.

I own lots of shotguns, I have an Ithaca model 37 with a 20 inch barrel and no plug, close enough to be useful if I need to go "O dark thirty" with a home invasion. When I leave the confines of my humble abode, give me a real rifle.

 

[Alaskaguide]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

If you could find a savage over/under in 22/20GA it would get my first vote.


second choice a 10-22 and a single shot shotgun. that combo will still stay in budget

 

[sab9259]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

Agree with the multiple gun theory, the more the better IMHO

 

[winterhorse290]

Re: Double check my SHTF gun logic advice -

shotgun and ar for around the house. if i have to hit the bush then it would be a rifle in .22. small meat critters and a deer every once in a while with a well placed shot. low noise, cheap and light ammo. a good pocket ful should last for months. lean toward a bolt action. kind of stops the spray and pray thing

 

[WhoAmI]

Hi I'm new here and on break at work so Ima put some words in your friends want a cheap and easy way to protect there home and a shtf gun why not a single shot hr 12ga I suggest this because you say they are not gun people and single shot hr are fool proof

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Old news from me, but probably still relatively valid; perfection being such a pointless goal since it's never gonna be attained in my lifetime...

For a lever gun, I especially like my Win 94AE .44mag, and for a shotgun, I like my Rem 11-87 20ga. The 94AE will also shoot .44 Special interchangeably, and I will go back to recommending pump shotguns just as soon as my 11-87 starts running sour for the first time. An accurized 10/22 supplements my SHTF first echelon, there are several .30-'06 rifles including my Garand, and an AR with a 24" Varmint upper and another 16" bull switch-out upper would round out the top tier. Everything wears optics, some of which are up there in magnification, and others are 1X reflex types, with (of course) the Garand excepted.

Obviously, that's a lot to carry, but my plans never included going it alone. For add-on riflefolks, there is a trio of scoped 91/30's; if they live long enough to use up the 100rd in the M-1923 (Garand?) ammo belts accompanying the 91/30's, so much the better.

This selection would be pointless without additional carrying capacity, so a small array of Wal-Mart $19.95 'Tactical' backpacks (at least they aren't International Orange...), assorted reasonably durable repro rifle ammo belts, and an initial assortment of MRE's would be loaded up and on standby.

Not a war winning array, but you gotta start somewhere. Considering my age and health, I have no illusions about my being around for the long haul, but at least my descendants would be provided with a good start. Nobody's gonna push 'em around too much, and they should be able to give a good accounting of themselves if incoming fire ever becomes an issue.

Everything starts with the understanding that ammo is a perishable resource; the more guns you have with the more varied chamberings means that pickup ammo has a better chance of being usable.

Never leave functional ammo or firearms in inanimate hands or uninhabited abodes. Anything you don't pick up will get picked up by someone else who may not have the best intentions toward you and yours.

Never assume that because you don't have the right gun or ammo for what you see lying about makes it unusable. After you pick up all you see, those mismatches will dwindle away fairly quickly. There's nothing more useless and frustrating than needing the thing you need now that you left lying back along the trail when you thought you had plenty.

Greg

 

[Jig Stick]

I'll play the devils advocate a bit here. For $500 you could get a half decent AK variant. Plenty of power to take down deer, pigs, etc....option of small vs large cap mags, maintenance minimal, ammo abundant. Recoil less than a 12g pump, with longer range. Easy to use. For someone who is rarely gonna shoot it, leave the thing in the corner of a closet or what not for years. Pull it out if SHTF, and you're ready to take on just about any situation. If the country collapses or whateverthefuck, I'd want more firepower than a pump 12g to defend my family and to put meat on the table.

 

[valkyries]

Another vote for the 10/22 Takedown. Get some of the Ruger BX 25 round mags. Its light weight, fairly quiet, accurate, and makes a good critter gitter. You can take it down and put it in a backpack along with hundreds of .22 rounds compactly and with the 25 round mags, has a lot of firepower. It would not be my first choice for home defense but if I were restricted to only one gun it would be a .22.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

10/22 or shotgun, 12ga pump, easy function and affordable in the "prepper" budget are generally lightweight and come in handy sizes

don't care how many "zombies" or the living is coming your way, send 30 40gr lead their way from a 10/22, it's gonna make 'em at least duck while making a tactical retreat - when the SHTF, there's no standing ground, that's what the reg army is for. the same 30 rounds center mass will put just about anything down or weaken it to the point it doesn't care to F with you anymore. plus you can carry a couple hundred rounds in 1 pocket.

shotgun may even be better, joe blow farmer most likely has a box of at least bird shot sitting on the shelf somewhere, once the farmhouse is overrun by marauders and abandoned, you can easily help yourself to it. bird shot at close range is just like a slug, puts a big hole in everything, and will stun / knockdown the shit out of anything even in body armor.

nice thing about either sub sonic .22lr or shotgun shells is they are quiet, and great to keep your noise signature down while gathering critter meat when red dawning it on the mtn. less chance of whatever you are running from to pinpoint your location.

keep the .223s and such, any other arms can be picked up & discarded along the way, logically .22lr or 12ga fits the bill for SHTF moments.

 

[Alpine 338]

I wouldn't suggest any AR platform for someone that is new to firearms, and is not going to practice the skill set of shooting. Example - I have friends who although have owned firearms and shot for years, they now have an AR or two, and when shooting, they always have brain freeze, and can't figure out how to release the bolt, and some have even asked me "how do I chamber a round?". No joke! These are guys who you think would be gun savvy, but because they only pull their AR's out one or twice a year, they can't figure them out. Something you cannot afford in SHTF situation.

I suggest something simple like a 10/22 and/or an AK. Some shotguns, other than a Simple single shot or O/U, can be difficult to operate for someone as I've described above.

Those 22(LR or Hornet) over a 410/20-ga are also a good choice.

 

[JByrd]

if they are normal working class folks they can cover their bases with the 3 following pieces.

.22 - quiet, portable, food supplier old beatup ruger 10-22 is perfect
12ga. Mossberg 500 cheap reliable home defender. saiga 12 if theyre feelin sporty and would also be same operating system/controls (standardizing is always a good thing) as my next suggestion
ak.47 sadly enough if you look at gunbot on any given day it is cheaper to shoot , stockpile a stash of 7.62x39 than .22 and you def get ALOT more firepower for your money.

if kids in 3rd world countries can operate and maintain the AK ....any reasonable working class American def can.

 

[opeagle]

For more home defense, a 20 gauge 870 youth model especially if the female half is smaller. Still useful for hunting with the right ammo. Maybe cheap enough to also get the 10/22. That would leave them both armed with something relatively easy to shoot of the long arm variety.

 

[Harv24]

I use a shotgun for one thing... shooting birds... They are slow to reload, have a small magazine capacity and use a heavy and bulky ammo that's size limits how much you can carry on your person, and contrary to what Hollywood would have the average citizen on the street think, you can easily miss at close range with a shotgun. You do in fact need to aim them vs. point. They are not the "trench broom" that the legend suggests. They have a limited range and stiff recoil. There are much better options out there if one really looks at the subject subjectively.

You would be better served with a .22 LR and an AR. I keep one under my bed for HD. just my opinion.

 

[carp]

If you could find a savage over/under in 22/20GA it would get my first vote.


second choice a 10-22 and a single shot shotgun. that combo will still stay in budget

+1

I took this combo out to the range for the first time in years a few weeks ago. As the only person on the line that day, conversation with the RO evolved into that little savage walking CCI Minimags onto steel with the open sights at 300 yds. I havent had that much fun with a 22 in forever. The point of impact with both 22 and 20g was right on at 50 yds. As a "one gun" for survival (2 legged defense not withstanding) i thinks its impossible to beat. They can still be found on gunbroker pretty regularly.