Drop trousers, bend over, self lube, back up rapidly.

[Maggot]

Because we'd rather make you fuck yourself.

Bought a 22 Toyota Hybrid, was getting 52-54, sometimes 58 mpg. Now its down to 40-42. Took it to the shop and they say "Nothing wrong, its the chemicals they put in the winter gas." A 25-30% drop and the price is up.

 

[Jgunner]

I get better mileage with winter gas, the summer gas has ethanol in it. But, yes, we are getting fucked.

 

[candyx]

Found more success dropping the trousers before bending over

 

[Maggot]

Found more success dropping the trousers before bending over

Thank you, corrected, LOL.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Because we'd rather make you fuck yourself.

Bought a 22 Toyota Hybrid, was getting 52-54, sometimes 58 mpg. Now its down to 40-42. Took it to the shop and they say "Nothing wrong, its the chemicals they put in the winter gas." A 25-30% drop and the price is up.

What are your actual driving temperatures right now compared to summer?
Temperature of the car when parked before you start driving and average air temperature outside during the drive?

Normal hot summer temperatures and running the air conditioner usually makes minimal difference in a modern hybrid and the vehicle is more efficient running the AC than it would be with opening the windows.

Cold weather however does make a significant difference, especially if you are below freezing, starting the vehicle below freezing or driving at below freezing temperatures.

The flow of traffic in addition to speed also makes a huge difference to mild hybrids (which I'm guessing yours is).

You'd need to run benchmarks, mid summer, mid spring, mid fall, mid winter, using ethanol free fuel (like the kind for generators and boats and lawn equipment) from one of the gas stations that sells it and verify all the driving speeds and traffic flows are similar.
A long straight highway drive at highway speeds in the dead of winter is pretty much the worst case fuel economy scenario for a mild hybrid.
Mild stop and start traffic on the highway / roadways with some straight driving during the summer months is about the best case.

All that being said, a 25% drop in overall fuel economy for a mild hybrid between nice summer weather and below freezing winter temperatures is not actually all that out of the ordinary.

I drove a mild hybrid for 5 years and in the summer I could get better than listed fuel economy, and in freezing weather it dropped a fair bit.

Now I mostly drive in straight EV mode and it's almost exactly the same ratio between summer and winter.

 

[n0glock]

I have a Rav 4 hybrid, 20to30 percent drop in winter mileage the colder it is the worse it gets.

 

[NoDopes]

The car has to expend energy to keep the battery temp above freezing. Unlike pure EV that only needs higher temp to recharge, hybrids are constantly cycling.

 

[ZY100]

My hybrid drops 3-4 mpg in winter—for me it is the heater.

Typically the engine cycles on and off as needed for load/state of charge.

In winter my engine runs significantly more to keep the coolant up to temp for the heater. Disregard if you have electric heat…

ZY

 

[W54/XM-388]

The car has to expend energy to keep the battery temp above freezing. Unlike pure EV that only needs higher temp to recharge, hybrids are constantly cycling.

In a Pure EV when you are in below freezing winter temperatures, you need heating for the cabin so the humans don't turn into ice blocks.
You also need keep the main battery warm enough to be running properly, various sensors, driving systems, control systems and safety systems require a bit of heating as well.

So a Pure EV will almost always have less range in freezing or below freezing weather.
How much depends a lot on how cold it is and if the vehicle uses just a heater system or if it in addition has a heat pump and heat scavenging.
When you start getting into negative f numbers the range starts to have a steeper drop curve.
You have to know the actual model and year of the vehicle and options package then check actual real test results as it may be as little as 15% range loss to as much as 50% range loss depending on how cold it is, did you pre-heat the car with shore power, the driving conditions and the make/model/year/option package.

 

[ggmanning]

My Cummins gets slightly less with winter fuel. My wifes Landcruiser gets 15 with everything from ethanolshit to rocket fuel. Either will cut down on your winter mileage and fuel complaints.

 

[Maggot]

What are your actual driving temperatures right now compared to summer?
Temperature of the car when parked before you start driving and average air temperature outside during the drive?

Normal hot summer temperatures and running the air conditioner usually makes minimal difference in a modern hybrid and the vehicle is more efficient running the AC than it would be with opening the windows.

Cold weather however does make a significant difference, especially if you are below freezing, starting the vehicle below freezing or driving at below freezing temperatures.

The flow of traffic in addition to speed also makes a huge difference to mild hybrids (which I'm guessing yours is).

You'd need to run benchmarks, mid summer, mid spring, mid fall, mid winter, using ethanol free fuel (like the kind for generators and boats and lawn equipment) from one of the gas stations that sells it and verify all the driving speeds and traffic flows are similar.
A long straight highway drive at highway speeds in the dead of winter is pretty much the worst case fuel economy scenario for a mild hybrid.
Mild stop and start traffic on the highway / roadways with some straight driving during the summer months is about the best case.

All that being said, a 25% drop in overall fuel economy for a mild hybrid between nice summer weather and below freezing winter temperatures is not actually all that out of the ordinary.

I drove a mild hybrid for 5 years and in the summer I could get better than listed fuel economy, and in freezing weather it dropped a fair bit.

Now I mostly drive in straight EV mode and it's almost exactly the same ratio between summer and winter.

Thanks for the feedback, maybe thats it. Seems a bit excessive, though. Traveling back roads, 45-50 mph I got 58.8 mpg one time.

WTF do they put in the gas that screws it up so badly. Found this

www.gasbuddy.com › go › summer-blend-and-winterThe Difference Between Summer-Blend and Winter-Blend Gasoline​

Sep 15, 2022 · In winter, gasoline blends have a higher Reid vapor pressure, meaning they evaporate more easily and allow gasoline to ignite more easily to start your car in cold

 

[Maggot]

I have a Rav 4 hybrid, 20to30 percent drop in winter mileage the colder it is the worse it gets.

The car has to expend energy to keep the battery temp above freezing. Unlike pure EV that only needs higher temp to recharge, hybrids are constantly cycling.

In a Pure EV when you are in below freezing winter temperatures, you need heating for the cabin so the humans don't turn into ice blocks.
You also need keep the main battery warm enough to be running properly, various sensors, driving systems, control systems and safety systems require a bit of heating as well.

So a Pure EV will almost always have less range in freezing or below freezing weather.
How much depends a lot on how cold it is and if the vehicle uses just a heater system or if it in addition has a heat pump and heat scavenging.
When you start getting into negative f numbers the range starts to have a steeper drop curve.
You have to know the actual model and year of the vehicle and options package then check actual real test results as it may be as little as 15% range loss to as much as 50% range loss depending on how cold it is, did you pre-heat the car with shore power, the driving conditions and the make/model/year/option package.

Well, I reckon it those things rather than Exxon's dick in my ass.

Other than that I have nothing but compliments for the little Toyota, really sweet, well built, machine. comes with 150 K battery warranty. First new vehicle I bough was an 87 Toyota with the 22 R engine. Drove her 375,000 miles and she started everytime I turned the key.

 

[10ring'r]

I hate to remind you guys(?) but, batteries are for toys (yes, humor). Mac

 

[candyx]

I hate to remind you guys(?) but, batteries are for toys (yes, humor). Mac

It's shocking butt 10ring'r is correct , batteries are for toys.......

 

[chevy_man]

The car has to expend energy to keep the battery temp above freezing. Unlike pure EV that only needs higher temp to recharge, hybrids are constantly cycling.

Not even close. EV's get about half the distance in cold because of all the heaters needed.

Even better, they drain the battery when parked to keep it warm enough to work. Freezing a battery is a good way to damage it.

 

[NoDopes]

This is a discharge temperature chart.

LIFEPO4 batteries are discharge at a colder temp than they can charge. You can't charge one below 32f without harming it. In fact, somebody just posted an article that if you don't tell the Tesla you are on your way to a charging station, it won't "preheat" the battery in preparation and you'll have to spend extra time at the charging station just waiting for it to warm the battery before actually charging.

LiFePO4 batteries can be safely charged between 0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F).
...
The charging and discharging temperature for lithium batteries from our LT series is -20°C to 60°C.

Lithium LifePo4 Battery Charging Guide - BRAVA

How to charge a LiFePO4 batteries? That is one of the most common questions we get from our customers. The answer is simple: use a LiFePO4 battery charger, of

www.bravabatteries.com

 

[W54/XM-388]

Not even close. EV's get about half the distance in cold because of all the heaters needed.

Even better, they drain the battery when parked to keep it warm enough to work. Freezing a battery is a good way to damage it.

Maybe if you are talking -20f to -30f sure your 50% range loss might be correct. But to give you an example at 14f my EV range drops 25% The latest Tesla model S with a heat pump would be about 15% range loss.

Here is some sample numbers to give you an idea of ranges summer vs winter for more normal driving closer to the freezing and just below freezing range:

 

[W54/XM-388]

This is a discharge temperature chart.

LIFEPO4 batteries are discharge at a colder temp than they can charge. You can't charge one below 32f without harming it. In fact, somebody just posted an article that if you don't tell the Tesla you are on your way to a charging station, it won't "preheat" the battery in preparation and you'll have to spend extra time at the charging station just waiting for it to warm the battery before actually charging.

And anyone actually familiar with driving and charging EVs probably already knows what Coldgating and Rapidgating is and which models are more susceptible to it and how to charge fastest.

There is also a charge curve based on how much charge the battery has in it.
If you want to charge and go fast, you try to charge when you are around 10% to 20% remaining and stop when you are around 80%
The first 10% and the last 20% take way longer than the middle range.

There is a bit of a learning curve if you want to master how to get the most out of your EV, just like there is a learning curve on how to run your gasoline car well & keep it going.

Remember also places like Norway have large numbers of EVs on the roads and guess what they work fine in winter.

 

[10ring'r]

View attachment 8043899

It's shocking butt 10ring'r is correct , batteries are for toys.......

Welllll....not really the kind of toy I was referring to, but, you do you! Mac

 

[W54/XM-388]

It's shocking butt 10ring'r is correct , batteries are for toys.......

Until you really want to step up your game and your toys need AC power

 

[Int1968]

It’s still a battle about what’s actually in gasoline, and they don’t give a shit.

Billion Dollar NAFTA Challenge to California MTBE Ban

Environmental Data Services | By Cat Lazaroff | September 11, 2000 WASHINGTON, DC - An international tribunal has begun considering a claim that the United States must pay a foreign investor almost $1 billion because of a California measure to prevent water contamination.

www.iatp.org

Ethyl vs. Canada: Toxic fuel additive

isds.bilaterals.org

Doesn’t matter diesel or gas winter mileage will always be worse. Why would batteries be any different.

 

[Int1968]

Steam power if your interested

https://molivam42.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/500x_steampoweredvibrator.jpg

 

[chevy_man]

Maybe if you are talking -20f to -30f sure your 50% range loss might be correct. But to give you an example at 14f my EV range drops 25% The latest Tesla model S with a heat pump would be about 15% range loss.

Here is some sample numbers to give you an idea of ranges summer vs winter for more normal driving closer to the freezing and just below freezing range:

It was 22* as a high today, and that was warm. -20 to -50* is a very real thing we deal with every winter.

Was working with a guy that sold his Tesla because of it. He was all excited in the spring, then realized he could barely get 160 miles in the winter, and no charger at work. He sold it the next spring. Battery had to be hammered because it went from 100% to 5% every day in the winter.


There's a big difference on what they advertise and the real world.


We need better batteries before we need more EVs.

 

[W54/XM-388]

It was 22* as a high today, and that was warm. -20 to -50* is a very real thing we deal with every winter.

Was working with a guy that sold his Tesla because of it. He was all excited in the spring, then realized he could barely get 160 miles in the winter, and no charger at work. He sold it the next spring. Battery had to be hammered because it went from 100% to 5% every day in the winter.


There's a big difference on what they advertise and the real world.


We need better batteries before we need more EVs.

True in -20 to -50 all winter then yes not the best part of the country to go pure EV.
Especially if he was actually driving the full 160 miles each day as it sounds.

That being said if he had access to a 240v plug with like at least 20A or more at work, and could leave it plugged in, then things probably would have been a lot different as he could have used pre-heating both ways.

Also did he have the big expensive 400 mile range one or the cheaper one with the just shy of 300 range?

 

[Maggot]

What are your actual driving temperatures right now compared to summer?
Temperature of the car when parked before you start driving and average air temperature outside during the drive?

Normal hot summer temperatures and running the air conditioner usually makes minimal difference in a modern hybrid and the vehicle is more efficient running the AC than it would be with opening the windows.

Cold weather however does make a significant difference, especially if you are below freezing, starting the vehicle below freezing or driving at below freezing temperatures.

The flow of traffic in addition to speed also makes a huge difference to mild hybrids (which I'm guessing yours is).

You'd need to run benchmarks, mid summer, mid spring, mid fall, mid winter, using ethanol free fuel (like the kind for generators and boats and lawn equipment) from one of the gas stations that sells it and verify all the driving speeds and traffic flows are similar.
A long straight highway drive at highway speeds in the dead of winter is pretty much the worst case fuel economy scenario for a mild hybrid.
Mild stop and start traffic on the highway / roadways with some straight driving during the summer months is about the best case.

All that being said, a 25% drop in overall fuel economy for a mild hybrid between nice summer weather and below freezing winter temperatures is not actually all that out of the ordinary.

I drove a mild hybrid for 5 years and in the summer I could get better than listed fuel economy, and in freezing weather it dropped a fair bit.

Now I mostly drive in straight EV mode and it's almost exactly the same ratio between summer and winter.

Ya'll are right. today I dorove out to the range, 40 miles or so, temperature in the mid 70's and sure enough, back up to 51 mpg. I would never had thought temperature would have that much effect on milage...it doesnt on my fairly large 5.7 liter Chevy van, or I dont notice it.

 

[Tokay444]

I get better mileage with winter gas, the summer gas has ethanol in it. But, yes, we are getting fucked.

Cold air is dense air and requires more fuel to maintain the same target ration. All else being equal, you’ll get worse mileage in the winter

 

[Codiekfx400]

I get better mileage with winter gas, the summer gas has ethanol in it. But, yes, we are getting fucked.

Winter gas has ethanol in it as well. Ethanol is not the problem. Been using E85 year around in Northern Illinois since 2005 with no problems. Have you guys ever started a gasoline internal combustion engine with a carburetor in cold weather? It’s called a choke! Lol. Restrict the air to the engine and add fuel to get it to start. Pretty simple. And yes electric cars are shit in the winter. Actually they are shit in any climate IMO.

 

[Atomic_Lobster]

I thought this was a thread about going in for a colonoscopy

 

[whatsupdoc]

Cold, dry winter air is 11% denser than warm, humid summer air, which increases wind resistance. Consequently, highway fuel consumption increases by approximately 1.3%. The average wind speed is also higher in the winter, which increases aerodynamic resistance and fuel consumption.

Engine Air/Fuel Ratios

www.aa1car.com

 

[Maggot]

Cold, dry winter air is 11% denser than warm, humid summer air, which increases wind resistance. Consequently, highway fuel consumption increases by approximately 1.3%. The average wind speed is also higher in the winter, which increases aerodynamic resistance and fuel consumption.

Engine Air/Fuel Ratios

www.aa1car.com

Why dern, the thangs one kin lern on tha Hide.

 

[NoDopes]

Somebody needs to calculate the equivalent ballistic coefficient to use calculator on distance estimates.

Elon should have a closable AeroGel shield on the battery. The cold problem would go away. Thanks NASA.

 

[n2ishun]

Gawd damn!

I thought there was at least one of you that knew about cars.
Y'all ever hear about a "choke" ?
It was to enrich the mixture when the temps were low.
Gasoline doesn't atomize well in cold temps so it requires more fuel to optimize the air/fuel mix.
That's all, nothing more.
When your vehicle doesn't use much fuel, a tiny bit more will be noticed much more easily then something that gets 15MPG.

Umm, duh?