Dumb question about 'Lone Survivor' and the Mk12Mod0

[TheGerman]

I've read the book and have seen the movie. While there are some glaring differences between the two (as well as some other contradicting sources of information) I think they can all agree on the following. If any of this was proven to be different, please fill me in as I've always had this bug me.

- 2 of them had a sniper tab (Axelson, Luttrell)
- Both had a Mk12Mod0 or variant along with them during Redwings
- Their initial planned (this is key) observation point was well over 800 meters away from the village/target/enemy/etc
- They had orders to observe only, avoid contact and then call in the 'cavalry' once their target was ID'd

If this is all true; why the hell take a Mk12 with you? I really wish that in the book they would have went over what equipment they took and why (this would have better outlined their comms issue) as I see this two ways, and neither make sense to me as far as the primary weapon choice which I am sure as a SEAL, you could have practically had anything procured or at least had a decent range of choices.

This makes no sense to me because:

1) If the orders, objective or situation changed and they would have been tasked with shooting their target the distance at which they set up as an OP was at roughly the extreme range of the MK262 round (assuming that's what they had); there would have been many many alternatives to the MK12 in this respect with a minimal increase of weight (yes, I know weight matters). Please also note this is not taking into account that they would have moved closer if so tasked, but I am going to go with the fact that they would not have had time to do so if whatever caused the situation to change happened.

2) So taking #1 into our thought process, why take the MK12 at all? You're not supposed to engage anything and if you are its because you have close contact; something there are also many more viable options available other than the MK12. If you're OP location puts you at the extreme edge/outside of the effective range of your weapon, you're tasked with observation but COULD run into close contact - why would you take the MK12?

Again, this has always bothered me. I'm sure there's a reason or even things I'm missing. Like I said, just read the book and saw the movie and I'm not trying to say I know better than these guys but this aspect of it has always made me wonder why.

Any thoughts?

 

[BGE541]

I would take a stab that if the Artillery couldnt be contacted/called etc. they would be tasked with closing the distance/taking out the HVA. I think for the potential of close contact the Mk12 would have a leg up over others as well as the ability to eat the same ammo as the M4's if needed. Again, I dont know just speculation, man.

Good questions... Never seen the movie FWIW.

 

[gimpy]

My guess would be portability, weight, less weight for an extended,trek up mountain terrain, and the mk262 would perform well at altitude. Also, at an elevated position, the mk12 would provide all the range they could ever need, not to mention FA capability with the mk12 compared to bolt action options.

 

[TheGerman]

My guess would be portability, weight, less weight for an extended,trek up mountain terrain, and the mk262 would perform well at altitude. Also, at an elevated position, the mk12 would provide all the range they could ever need, not to mention FA capability with the mk12 compared to bolt action options.

I believe the MK12Mod0 is semi only.

I agree with the weight, but for your coarse of action due to changed tasking going from observation only to possibly engaging the enemy in either a close contact situation (which did happen) or an ambush and/or direct action scenario; the Mk12Mod0 is outdone in both areas. If you want a bit more distance and still semi, the SASS'r would have been ideal (weight around +4lbs). Long range support/overwatch/HVT action; a SASS'r or bolt would have performed much better (m24A2 in 300WIN would be ~6lbs more).

I guess my argument is, you have 2 'planned' possible scenarios; direct action on the HVT (its 4 guys, you're not going down there guns blazing) or the observation plan that was in place at the time. Neither have the Mk12Mod0 at the front of the 'best tool' list.

 

[Victory]

I've read the book and have seen the movie. While there are some glaring differences between the two (as well as some other contradicting sources of information) I think they can all agree on the following. If any of this was proven to be different, please fill me in as I've always had this bug me.

- 2 of them had a sniper tab (Axelson, Luttrell)
- Both had a Mk12Mod0 or variant along with them during Redwings
- Their initial planned (this is key) observation point was well over 800 meters away from the village/target/enemy/etc
- They had orders to observe only, avoid contact and then call in the 'cavalry' once their target was ID'd

If this is all true; why the hell take a Mk12 with you? I really wish that in the book they would have went over what equipment they took and why (this would have better outlined their comms issue) as I see this two ways, and neither make sense to me as far as the primary weapon choice which I am sure as a SEAL, you could have practically had anything procured or at least had a decent range of choices.

This makes no sense to me because:

1) If the orders, objective or situation changed and they would have been tasked with shooting their target the distance at which they set up as an OP was at roughly the extreme range of the MK262 round (assuming that's what they had); there would have been many many alternatives to the MK12 in this respect with a minimal increase of weight (yes, I know weight matters). Please also note this is not taking into account that they would have moved closer if so tasked, but I am going to go with the fact that they would not have had time to do so if whatever caused the situation to change happened.

2) So taking #1 into our thought process, why take the MK12 at all? You're not supposed to engage anything and if you are its because you have close contact; something there are also many more viable options available other than the MK12. If you're OP location puts you at the extreme edge/outside of the effective range of your weapon, you're tasked with observation but COULD run into close contact - why would you take the MK12?

Again, this has always bothered me. I'm sure there's a reason or even things I'm missing. Like I said, just read the book and saw the movie and I'm not trying to say I know better than these guys but this aspect of it has always made me wonder why.

Any thoughts?

I don't really want to comment on this as I am not a SEAL, but before a bunch of post from people who have never done recon or sniper missions in ASTAN or even served in a unit that does them start spouting off their internet knowledge, I figured I better.

1. There is no such thing as an official sniper tab.
2. Without going into too much detail, just because someone is sniper qualified, does not mean they are on a sniper mission. Theirs was obviously not a sniper mission; it was a long range surveillance mission. Most engagements in Astan are across valleys, ridge to ridge, or ridge to valley floor well over 400 meters. Carrying an M4 would limit the range targets could be engaged if compromised. The Mk12 has the extended range they would want and could be used fairly well if the fighting got close in. Also it is a shared round; having two guys with a .308 and two others with 5.56 screws your team if you need to share ammo. Also it gave the team more optics at their disposal.

3. When observing a target, you only get as close as you need to observe. Afghanistan isn't the jungles of Vietnam, 99% of the time you don't need to even be within small arms range to observe something effectively.

I can assure you they had the right weapon for the mission.

 

[sinister]

Tasked with a reconnaissance mission means you try to plan NOT to be compromised. If you are, you need to be able to try to break contact with what darn near always means a large and pissed off pursuit force bent on destroying you.

Given that LRRP and recce teams are extremely small (4 to 6 men) and you are carrying all your food, water, and batteries you plan for contingencies: Primary, Alternate, Contingency, Emergency, and Awe Shit -- range and standoff balanced against how many rounds you can carry.

As for your point about OP distance, the farther you are from the target the bigger and heavier your optics have to be. The closer you get the worse your chances are for being stumbled upon.

A 14.5-inch barreled M4 is a very good close-in weapon -- an SPR gives you standoff, magnification, and a suppressor to confuse targets as to your whereabouts. You have ammo commonality throughout the team. Space and distance from pursuers gives you a chance. The closer they get the smaller your chances of not getting shot.

 

[Dark Horse]

I actually can't think of a better combination of rifles then the 4 of them were carrying, given the objective and the eventual firefight. A bolt gun in that fight would have been laughable-they had zero time to set up any position to take advantage of a bolt.

If I recall Marcus and Axelson engaged many more targets than Murphy and Dietz-not slighting them in any way I just feel the SPR provided the best tool for the situation.

 

[Mead]

5.56 ammo is pretty dang light too. I wouldn't want to be carrying the equivalent amount of 7.62 or .300.

 

[jbailey]

The book Victory Point mentions that they had a Mk11 with them. I don't know what the author's source is on that info however (author was imbedded with 2/3 Marines, not CJSOTF-A). And of course you have the larger issues of Victory Point's AAR vs Lone Survivor's AAR. Like the above posters have mentioned, I would prefer the Mk12 to the Mk11 for such a mission however due to weight and objectives (recon, not direct action).

Additionally, there were multiple areas of interest, meaning they would be scouting a variety of ranges/terrain, not just the 800 meter village you cite.

Decent map of the AO found here: Map of NAIs for Operation Red Wings / Map by Ed Darack used on page 91 of VICTORY POINT , highlighting the different areas of interest.

Damn, those guys were brave and strong to operate in such difficult terrain, whether they had Mk12s, Mk11s or tactical nuclear weapons with them.

 

[Joezone]

I'm amazed the scopes survived the ride down the cliffs. Most scopes would have probably been toast or at least knocked off kilter.

 

[TheGerman]

The book Victory Point mentions that they had a Mk11 with them. I don't know what the author's source is on that info however (author was imbedded with 2/3 Marines, not CJSOTF-A). And of course you have the larger issues of Victory Point's AAR vs Lone Survivor's AAR. Like the above posters have mentioned, I would prefer the Mk12 to the Mk11 for such a mission however due to weight and objectives (recon, not direct action).

Additionally, there were multiple areas of interest, meaning they would be scouting a variety of ranges/terrain, not just the 800 meter village you cite.

Decent map of the AO found here: Map of NAIs for Operation Red Wings / Map by Ed Darack used on page 91 of VICTORY POINT , highlighting the different areas of interest.

Damn, those guys were brave and strong to operate in such difficult terrain, whether they had Mk12s, Mk11s or tactical nuclear weapons with them.

The different sites make more sense to me now rather than the 800m one and that was all. Ammo redundancy also came to mind earlier but I was more thinking along the lines of 'what ifs' and the fact that they potentially had different sites, all with unplanned close combat possibility brings more logic into this for me.

 

[Rinky]

The SEALs specifically use the mod1s.

Your questions have been answered for the most part.

But if you have the book American Sniper by the late Chris Kyle, you can flip to the pictures portion in the middle and read a caption saying hes holding his MK12 when in actuality its his MK11 308.

Im only pointing this out because sometimes things get mis-printed too. I doubt Chris said that was his mk12 and that whoever made the book for him fudged a number.