dumb question for the weekend - 556 in a 223 bolt gun?

[corey4]

i have been thinking about a 5R in 223, but the problem is i have enough federal 55gr 556 M193 that i don't need to be buying 223.

so i was wondering if the 5R would be able to handle the higher pressure of the 556, or is that just for semi autos?

what would be the other ramifications of feeding 556 into a 223 chamber, considering the different case shoulders?

the other option is the mossberg MVP varmint. the googling i did, they are good for 1 MOA, which is fine i guess. if that's what i gotta, that's what i gotta do.

also, what accuracy can be expected from factory loaded 55gr 556 M193? if it is only a 1 MOA round, then the mossberg will do just fine. why spend the money for a tack driver, but the ammo wont do it.

buy the way, it will wear a YHM 30cal QD phantom.

thanks in advance.

 

[Hunt4life]

Think I would go with the MVP and never look back. Nice rifle and a neat idea from Mossberg. As it pertains to the 5.56, I would proceed with caution and look for pressure signs in the first 20 or so rounds from any given lot. Modern bolt actions are very strong.

 

[corey4]

do you mean for the 5R?

the MVP is meant for 556 NATO. that is what the barrel is stamped for.

 

[79jeepcj5]

The way I understand it, the biggest difference between .223 and 5.56 NATO, even though 5.56 is roughly 5% higher regarding pressure, is the way the chambers in each are cut. The throat, or more specifically, the leade is about twice as long in a 5.56 chambered firearm as it is in a .223. So the higher pressure coupled with a shorter jump to the rifling could theoretically cause pressure spikes. That being said, I would think a modern bolt action could handle the extra pressure, but I would keep an eye out for cratered or popped primers. Or just stick with .223 in one chambered as such. Never been a big mossberg fan by the way. As far as the 5r, Remington has always been notorious for cutting their throats long so if it were mine, I'd shoot the m193 to get it on paper (watching for pressure signs), scavenge the brass and start working up a load for it.

 

[PRDRIVER]

If you are looking at buying a remington 5R and plan on shooting ball ammo through it, I would recommend saving a little money and buying a less expensive gun. My experience with 5.56 Ball ammo, is that the accuracy is never close to match rounds, even when shot through a high end rifle.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

If you are looking at buying a remington 5R and plan on shooting ball ammo through it, I would recommend saving a little money and buying a less expensive gun. My experience with 5.56 Ball ammo, is that the accuracy is never close to match rounds, even when shot through a high end rifle.

^^ That... this is seen in mk 12's when shooting ball ammo, it usually doesn't work too well. (yes i know not a bolt gun but same basic concept, match vs ball out of a quality rifle)

 

[jetman624]

If you are looking at buying a remington 5R and plan on shooting ball ammo through it, I would recommend saving a little money and buying a less expensive gun. My experience with 5.56 Ball ammo, is that the accuracy is never close to match rounds, even when shot through a high end rifle.

+1 here too

No sense in buying that gun unless you plan to pony up for some match rounds, or at least reload that 5.56 ball ammo after it has been shot with some match grade bullets. Otherwise, get that mossberg or something else in that price range.

 

[corey4]

with the mossberg; Mossberg & Sons | 27710; would i be better off getting the 24" cut down to 18" or 16" and having it threaded since the YHM can is so heavy? would that matter for accuracy? what about the flutes? i don't see why it would matter cutting thru the flutes and having it threaded. it is my understanding that the shorter stiffer barrels are more accurate. aslo, do you really need 24" for a 556?

my 308 5R is only 20".

 

[colscar]

my question would be what are you going to use it for.... if you need superior accuracy then yeah you need to shoot match stuff.

 

[corey4]

just dickin' around when my free time allows. i figure that i have a shit ton of 556 that i bought before the panic. it is way cheaper, especially for what i bought it for, than 308.

i like ARs, but i would rather shoot a bolt gun.

i have my 308 5R that i shoot FGMM with.

 

[corey4]

this thread is a bit old, but i am going to reopen it.


i was at a LGS today and i was checking out the rifles. one of the salesman asked if i need help, so i mentioned to him i was considering the mossberg MVP. after some discussion, it came up that what i really want is the 5R, but my 556 ammo wouldn't be a good idea. he recommended getting the chamber recut to allow 556 so i wouldn't end up with pressure spikes.

is this plausible?

i would do this with a SPS tactical and not a 5R. i'll take what a few of you said and save some beer money if i don't plan on feeding the rifle match ammo.

would 1:9 twist be ok for 55gr?

intended use would be a trainer for the most part. when i bought my 556, i paid .20 cents a round. this is why i am so interested in going this route.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You can shoot 5.56 in a Remington 223 chamber.

It's pretty ass backwards that you're going to buy a gun around the ammo though. Buy a lesser rifle because you have shitty ammo? Buy a good rifle and feed it good ammo. Do you just want to waste some ammo you have on hand or do you want a accurate rifle you can enjoy?

 

[corey4]

You can shoot 5.56 in a Remington 223 chamber.

It's pretty ass backwards that you're going to buy a gun around the ammo though. Buy a lesser rifle because you have shitty ammo? Buy a good rifle and feed it good ammo. Do you just want to waste some ammo you have on hand or do you want a accurate rifle you can enjoy?

i'm not saying this in a smart ass way, so please don't take it that way. i don't see how it is wasting ammo when i will be using it as a trainer. wasting ammo is taking an AR out and blasting away. this is why i don't shoot ARs that much. maybe once a year i'll send a mag or 2.

let me put in another way, i have A LOT of 556. i would like to utilize it.

i have a 5R 308 in a mcree that i enjoy very much.

i only paid .20 a round for my 556. 308 FGMM is a ~1.50 a trigger pull.

i don't see how using my supply of 556 for training is any different than using a 22 for a trainer.

 

[ashiha]

Even though you have a nice big stash of 556 ammo, you should still leave that ammo for what it was purchased for, the AR. You were thinking about something when you bought it, so what has changed? The bolt gun should be given match ammo to fulfill its purpose, which is accuracy. You won't really get that with the 556 ammo.

I have an AR and a bolt 223. I feed the AR the cheap 55gr Federal from Walmart but load my own for the bolt.

We're just trying to look out for you here to keep you from making what you might consider a mistake down the road.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

i'm not saying this in a smart ass way, so please don't take it that way. i don't see how it is wasting ammo when i will be using it as a trainer. wasting ammo is taking an AR out and blasting away. this is why i don't shoot ARs that much. maybe once a year i'll send a mag or 2.

let me put in another way, i have A LOT of 556. i would like to utilize it.

i have a 5R 308 in a mcree that i enjoy very much.

i only paid .20 a round for my 556. 308 FGMM is a ~1.50 a trigger pull.

i don't see how using my supply of 556 for training is any different than using a 22 for a trainer.

Why not invest that money in a loading setup then? You can load much better ammo for less.

A 22 trainer burns $.05/round ammo you're talking about burning $.50/round ammo because that's what that 223 ammo is worth today. For that price you can load 308.

 

[dwkuska]

In my experience you CAN shoot 5.56 through a .223 gun but why would you? When the manufacturers put additions in their user guides to NOT use 5.56 in a .223 that tells me that it is possible but it MIGHT cause an issue. Most likely issue would be you get fragged by your own gun. I have heard of folks getting a .223 milled up to 5.56 so if thats the route you want to take it is possible. Though I suspect it would cost more then just getting say that mossberg MVP which is chambered for 5.56. I guess to sum it up... Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Happy hunting!

 

[Drifter™]

As a previous MVP owner, I doubt that it will shoot 1-moa with ball ammo. MOA is possible with handloads, and possibly some quality factory ammo, but I just wouldn't expect too much with ball.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

In my experience you CAN shoot 5.56 through a .223 gun but why would you? When the manufacturers put additions in their user guides to NOT use 5.56 in a .223 that tells me that it is possible but it MIGHT cause an issue. Most likely issue would be you get fragged by your own gun. I have heard of folks getting a .223 milled up to 5.56 so if thats the route you want to take it is possible. Though I suspect it would cost more then just getting say that mossberg MVP which is chambered for 5.56. I guess to sum it up... Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Happy hunting!

Remington chambers shoot 5.56 no problem, Remington has said this. There should be no safety concerns when the manufacturer says it's good to go.

Most factory 223 chambers these days are chambered for both.

 

[Rodo]

Head to Ace in Washington, ask for Chris. He will help you figure out which rifle will be best for your desires overall. If you question the ability to chamber a round, you can look in the manual while youre there. They have great variety there, Im sure youll find what fits best.

(Basing this post on your location saying Pittsburgh)

 

[samnev]

I have a Remington PSS in 223 and have shot 556 thru it but only to do my initial zero at 25 yards before doing the final zero at 100 yards. I agree with the others save the 556 for an AR and shoot better ammunition in your 5R.

 

[D_TROS]

I would buy the rifle you want (most accurate), specifically the 5R, and shoot the cheap ammo in it. It will be a good varmint rifle for sure and esp good for training positions etc. When you get more money/time/run out of cheap ammo, you can always buy/reload some good stuff. Heck if you want to shoot in a small monthly comp with the 223 all you have to do is buy some good ammo and you're ready to go. Better to buy accurate rifle first and not have to worry about it later than buying cheap rifle and never being able to get good accuracy later on if you want.

Also look on gunbroker and other sites as there are occasional good deals that pop up.

Yes 1-9 will easily stabilize up to 70gr ammo.

Good luck, I just ordered a 223 for training and so did a buddy of mine. Pretty excited myself.

DT

 

[09jisaac]

The pressure difference really isn't much of a difference in the real world.

The problem arises because of the two different measurements of pressure. The 5.56 is measured in CUP and the .223 is measured in PSI. There is no accurate conversion from one to the other. This is also stated as the MAX pressure, not the standard pressure. The standard pressure of any factory load would be less than the MAX of the other.

The rounds have been tested in rifles and show very little difference in the pressure of the rounds. I think I seen this study on Luckygunner.

The main difference is the chamber. Military chambers are usually cut very generously.


I would buy any .223/5.56 firearm you want, and fire any .223/5.56 round you want out of it. Just understand, 5.56s are usually not as loaded as exact as quality .223 ammo. You probably will not achieve maximum accuracy from a 5.56 out of a .223 firearm.

 

[darth_ritis]

Remington chambers shoot 5.56 no problem, Remington has said this. There should be no safety concerns when the manufacturer says it's good to go.

Most factory 223 chambers these days are chambered for both.

Just a warning from experience here. Maybe it doesn't apply to the gun in question, but take heed my friends.

I heard the same things about my Windham AR with the 5.56 Compass Lake chamber but only .223 stamped on the barrel. "Are you sure?" "Absolutely!" Right. I tried some 5.56 ammo in it and promptly jammed a bullet in the lands. * I pulled the bolt back and the brass separated from the bullet, spraying gunpowder all over me. Thankfully, a local gunsmith got the bullet out with zero damage in the chamber, and this gun is 1/2 MOA today.

223 Rem and 5.56 Reamer dimensions comparison Notice how the freebore length is much shorter in the Compass Lake chamber compared to some popular "5.56" chambers? That's what bit me.

Be wary of "no problem shooting 5.56 ammo. trust me!" claims, even if it's supposedly from the manufacturer.



* Forward assist is an evil invention that should be un-invented and erased from history.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

With as much freebore as Remington's have there's no concern about that either. I'll say it again, 5.56 is perfectly fine and safe in any Remington 223 chamber.

 

[corey4]

d_tros is thinking the same thing i am thinking. i REALLY need to work on my recoil management, breathing, bipod hopping, trigger squeeze; basically the basic marksmanship skills. i can't even get my damn 22 bolt from jumping around on me! i was just going to use my .20 a round 556 instead of my 1.50 308 for training to practice with.

on the other hand, others have made very good arguments against buying the rifle, put that money towards a reloading setup. problem with that is, i have absolutely nowhere to reload. we live in a small ass shitty house, no garage, no spare "man room" and our basement is not condusive (spelling?) to have a work bench. my work bench now for cleaning guns in on top of the washer and dryer.

i realize that if i were to buy the 5R, that the ammo i have on hand is going to be the limiting factor. which is why i was going to consider the SPS or the MVP, at half the 5R price.

is see where you guys are coming from with your concerns and trying to help me out. your advice isn't falling on deaf ears.

 

[D_TROS]

Remington 700 SPS Tactical 20" 223 Rem 84206 - NIB : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

not mine but the same gun as I bought for half the price as the 5R. I will let ya know how accuracy is, and the 1-9 twist will stabilize most any bullet.

Luck.

DT

 

[Cubbetm]

Remington 700 SPS Tactical 20" 223 Rem 84206 - NIB : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

not mine but the same gun as I bought for half the price as the 5R. I will let ya know how accuracy is, and the 1-9 twist will stabilize most any bullet.

Luck.

DT

I have one and with 75 gr. steel match hornady ammo it did surprisingly well.

 

[-=boone=-]

Fuck this not reading all of it, I'll just give you the answer.

Call Russell at scout supply company. Buy a .223 SPS tactical package. He trues, blues, and tattoos the package for around $800. Tell him you want the chamber cut wylde. Now you have a trued riffle with a match chamber that can run 223 or 556.

 

[Km22]

Even if you use it as a "trainer", how will you know how you're doing if the ammo that you use is incapable of producing consistent results?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Even if you use it as a "trainer", how will you know how you're doing if the ammo that you use is incapable of producing consistent results?

Exactly. This is why I don't believe in entry level budget crap. Buy the best you can afford so that you know the problem is YOU... Ammo included.

 

[sakobob]

Even if you use it as a "trainer", how will you know how you're doing if the ammo that you use is incapable of producing consistent results?

ding ding ding winner! inaccurate training is wasting time and ammo, and the only thing your learning
is how to second guess everything.

 

[corey4]

Even if you use it as a "trainer", how will you know how you're doing if the ammo that you use is incapable of producing consistent results?

Exactly. This is why I don't believe in entry level budget crap. Buy the best you can afford so that you know the problem is YOU... Ammo included.

i'm not trying to argue or be difficult. i know how these threads can get out of hand.

i was watching a teaser video on youtube from LL about recoil management. he was shooting, if i remember correctly, a 338LM, then proclaiming he saw the splash/hit/dirt cloud/wisp in the wind/etc. a 338LM...the rifle hardly moved..and he says he saw the hit. that is/was my interest in a 223 bolt that can handle 556 so i could practice stuff like that. i played ice hockey in high school, and i practiced a lot of stick handling on the kitchen floor and basement floor instead of renting an hour of ice for $300. maybe that was a poor analogy...

but sometimes a dumb idea is a dumb idea. i am one of the few people that freely admit when i am wrong. just ask any of my employees. sometimes i have this crazy idea of how the project should go. and sometimes one of the guys will say, "are you fucking high, seriously?". then i take a step back, listen to what they have to say and decide if i have to show them who is boss, or if they have to show me who is boss. in this case, you guys are showing me who is boss. lol

hopefully someone else learned something from this thread as well.

i am going to reconsider the rifle and see if i can find a way to work a reloading setup on top of my washer and dryer. haha some how, some way, you gotta find that funny!

there are some very good points made here, good opinions, and facts. i thank you all.

 

[Badshot308]

Back in the 80's I had a Remington 700 BDL varmint in .223. I didn't have the internet back then to tell me all the horrors of shooting 5.56 in the .223 chamber. So I shot both the M193 and M855 ammo. Guess what, no high pressure signs, nothing blew up. Accuracy of the M855 wasn't that great out of the 1-12 twist, but the M193 was good enough for plinking. So if you want to practice with the M193 just for trigger time and plinking, I think you'll be fine. Buy or reload match ammo when you require the accuracy.

 

[09jisaac]

WHOA, take a step back and look at this for a bit.

Most "snipers" practice EVERYDAY on trigger control. They'll get into a shooting position with an unloaded weapon aim at something and practice getting very consistent trigger pulls.

You can do something very similar to this with a live cartridge and get an instant result of your technic.

You don't have to have $2000+ in a rifle or a high dollar glass, you just have to realize the limitation of your weapon system and strive to keep your results in them.