Rifle Scopes Dumping of scopes...

[MarinePMI]

Is it me, or does it seem like every brand out there is dumping their stuff (big sales discounts)?

Makes me wonder what is coming down the pipe, that is causing them all to start flooding product onto the market. New product? Or just old stock that has been sitting awhile (since the gun run has cooled down a bit, and the market is in a bit of a slump).

Just thinking out loud...

 

[308pirate]

They see the big boogaloo coming?

 

[MarinePMI]

I was thinking either it was fear of the tax man, or some next gen tech about to be released...but hell, who knows, maybe it is the fear of "the big boogaloo" coming down the pike...

 

[stello1001]

Or maybe they're all done making scopes and are selling everything off to leave the business...

 

[Cayenne6]

It will be interesting to see how much new stuff is released at Shot. That should paint a picture.

 

[Birddog6424]

Or we are simply seeing a new trend in scope sales. There are a metric crap ton of scopes on the market right now. Grabbing a slice of the pie may just be becoming more difficult.

 

[bsekf]

I'll bite, what is the big boogaloo ?????

 

[MarinePMI]

I'll bite, what is the big boogaloo ?????

Slang for the 2nd Civil War...

 

[AIAW]

I was thinking either it was fear of the tax man, or some next gen tech about to be released...but hell, who knows, maybe it is the fear of "the big boogaloo" coming down the pike...

I'd say it's a combination of black-friday pre-sales, holidays, slump causing old-stock, and the looming inventory tax. Slow moving stock logically takes a while to start moving - I'd say it's just a head-start. You know how that works though too... one vendor has a sale, the others need to close the gap.

 

[CS95]

To the OP, I would say your latter guess is spot on.

What I'm hearing most optics companies and majority of gun companies (except for good custom rifle builders) are down for the year or even the past few years. Some are hurting very badly. So i would imagine companies are dumping inventory looking to get money flow at any cost. Also, with Nikon supposedly leaving the riflescope/shooting industry you will likely see tons of Nikons flooding the market.

 

[RTH1800]

I’m guessing several issues at work here. None of which are indications of catastrophic social issues.

Inventory tax due at end of year.

Relatively high cost low net inventory.

New year model changes.

Tough market. Highly knowledgeable buyers that have difficulty affording purchase of product.

Many mfg’s rearranging dealer, distribution and importer models.

General instability of government due to impeachment.

 

[Milf Dots]

It's definitely a buyers market for scopes, guns, ammunition, and most accessories. It would've been much better for the gun community if we'd have had a steady market for the last eleven years, instead of the crazy ups and downs, but we can't change history.

 

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I do not sell rifle scopes, but my company does the same thing. Trying to sell off all inventory so you do not have to pay for it next year. Surplus stock ties up capital and doesn't allow you to reinvest for new tech next year.

 

[erwos]

Eh, I think it's SHOT Show coming up (new products!) and pre-BF buildup. Will say that buying an SMRS for $680 OTD was pretty rad, that was way more optic than I ever anticipated putting on my AR-308.

 

[Cotay]

This happens seemingly every year around this time and in the Spring. Some years are better than others, but I don't find this year particularly unusual.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Is it me, or does it seem like every brand out there is dumping their stuff (big sales discounts)?

Makes me wonder what is coming down the pipe, that is causing them all to start flooding product onto the market. New product? Or just old stock that has been sitting awhile (since the gun run has cooled down a bit, and the market is in a bit of a slump).

Just thinking out loud...

It has been a slow year due to a cooling down of urgency to buy while the buying is good. A slow year inspires mfg's to offer deals in order to grab $$$$.

It also isn't hurting the discounting that Nikon announced getting out of riflescopes and pulling out of SHOT. Lot's of half priced Nikons being offered as nobody knows what'll happen when/if these scopes need work what Nikon will do about it and no retailer or distributor wants to be left holding Nikon inventory

 

[jbailey]

I know that Minox is doing that big sale - buy a rifle and get 50% off any scope. But what other companies are running these big sales? TT or ZCO?

 

[The Durk]

It happens almost every season. The new hotness is about to drop in 2 months at SHOT, and they're trying to get all their old stuff out. Same thing happens in the springtime with graphics cards. Once E3 hits, all last years $700 cards go for $400. It's the perfect time to grab that scope you've been eyeing up all year.

 

[Stooxie]

There's also the trouble that plagues manufacturers have when they start having too many SKUs. Scopes can't just have a plex reticle or simple ballistic reticle. People aren't satisfied with just 2-7x32 or 3-9x40 (and I'm not saying I would be either). So, imagine how many combinations have to be sold, each being its own SKU that has to be marketed, distributed, advertised, sold and supported. The complex the catalog, the higher the cost of operations and support. The net is lower profits.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Nikon is out. They probably haven't made money on that line in years. Not saying they are bad scopes, just losing ground to newer players like Vortex, long time reputation holders like Leupold, and the alphas like S&B, Zeiss, etc. You read a scope review and the optical performance doesn't even get a mention, but there's 12 pages on how all the bells and whistles let you shoot the wings off a fly at 1000 yards. How big is that audience, really? A decent hunting scope with brilliant optics just doesn't seem to excite folks much any more.

Take S&B for example-- they have so many SKUs it's completely ludicrous. I haven't seen their dealer catalog but my guess is that there are hundreds of SKUs and thousands of combinations. Dozens of reticles, multiple illumination options, BDC turrets, mil clicks or inches (or whatever you call it), etc! And that's in a single line! It's just not workable for most retailers to handle that.

Guess what? It's not workable for the manufacturers to handle it either. As the US markets demand more and more from scope manufacturers it starts to take its toll. If there's a saving grace it's probably that people are buying more expensive and higher margin scopes. A decade ago it was really just the German alpha scopes that were going for $1,500+. Then Leupold got the memo and their VX6 line was mostly 4 digits. Then Vortex continued it with the Razor and AMG lines. Now it seems routine, at least on The Hide.

It will not surprise me at all if more and more top end manufacturers start turning cold to the US market. Not because they don't like us, but because we're becoming awfully picky and it's hard to make money when you can't focus on a few really great products.

Not trying to be doom and gloom, just pointing out how markets react to market forces. Feel free to set me straight if I'm off base on any of this.

-Stooxie

 

[erwos]

Not sure I fully agree. No one is forcing them to carry all these scope lines - they do it because, I assume, covering that many market segments and price points as possible is profitable for them. If Vortex dumped one of their 17 lines of scopes (just counted!), especially on the budget end, I don't think I'd even notice. But they don't do that because stuff like the Crossfire II line is making them money, and introducing people to the brand.

I'd also add that some companies, especially ones selling to .mil and LEO orgs, carry zillions of SKUs because they want their product to be considered a "consumer off the shelf" (COTS) option for contracts. If carrying a ton of SKUs wasn't a profitable strategy, they'd stop doing it. Remember, just having an SKU doesn't mean you have inventory on hand. It's just a number that goes with a product (literally "stock keeping unit").

Nikon pulling out of the scope market isn't good news, but it's important to note that they've been stagnant for years now, and their big new product intro went poorly because, well, it wasn't a particularly innovative scope, and just having the glass is no longer enough. Plenty of people have (relatively) great glass on budget scopes now. Treating them like they're a bellweather for the entire optics industry is perhaps not a solidly-founded theory. The counterpoint to Nikon is Sig, who got into the optics game with genuinely interesting new products, and is now doing well. (Side note, it's funny that we're talking about simple scopes with amazing glass, because there's another thread on here where someone was bemoaning why the Sig Whiskey5 line wasn't living up to its full potential.)

Now, all of that said, I do agree the retailer and consumer confusion when you've got 15-20 brand lines is a real thing. There is a lot of trash to wade through to find those diamonds in the rough at the sub-$500 range, like the Burris RT-6. I like how Bushnell, for example, has pared back on the number of brand lines it's running, and that Nightforce is pretty easy to figure out.

 

[Stooxie]

Not sure I fully agree. No one is forcing them to carry all these scope lines - they do it because, I assume, covering that many market segments and price points as possible is profitable for them. If Vortex dumped one of their 17 lines of scopes (just counted!), especially on the budget end, I don't think I'd even notice. But they don't do that because stuff like the Crossfire II line is making them money, and introducing people to the brand.

I'd also add that some companies, especially ones selling to .mil and LEO orgs, carry zillions of SKUs because they want their product to be considered a "consumer off the shelf" (COTS) option for contracts. If carrying a ton of SKUs wasn't a profitable strategy, they'd stop doing it. Remember, just having an SKU doesn't mean you have inventory on hand. It's just a number that goes with a product (literally "stock keeping unit").

Companies expand their product lines to cover additional market segments-- that is true. However, once it turns into product proliferation there becomes an inflection point where very few lines are performing as well as the company would like. I am not making assumptions here, I've lived this for 20 years. When you hear corporate leadership saying things like "We're returning to our core competencies" that's what they are referring to. To say that companies wouldn't do it if it wasn't profitable ignores the downstream consequences. I understand why they start to do it, I am simply pointing out that it isn't sustainable.

As for government purchases? That's a WHOLE can of worms all on its own. I'll just say there's a reason why many/most vendors to the Federal government have separate legal entities doing that business. The Federal Acquisition Rules book is about 2.5 inches thick. Yes, the government ostensibly claims it wants COTS but pricing rules demand preference over commercial pricing and no vendor with a CFO or a brain is going to make all their commercial sales subservient to the FARs. Unless you're FLIR and most of your money comes from Federal, state and local governments anyway.

And we haven't even brought up funky accounting rules like LCM (lower of cost or market).

-Stooxie

 

[MarinePMI]

Ah yes, the FAR 5000...it should be fucking burned. Smdh...what an outdated piece of crap. The only thing it protects now, is the government bureaucracy and white collar welfare for the DoD civilian "engineers". Don't get me wrong, I've known a few good govie engineers (and I mean, really good ones), but the vast majority are just a tick on the back of the taxpayer and contractors. They just suck blood from the contracts of the people trying to bring current technology to the warfighter. It's the real "quid pro quo" pay to play scheme within the government. Grrrr....

 

[308pirate]

As for government purchases? That's a WHOLE can of worms all on its own. I'll just say there's a reason why many/most vendors to the Federal government have separate legal entities doing that business. The Federal Acquisition Rules book is about 2.5 inches thick. Yes, the government ostensibly claims it wants COTS but pricing rules demand preference over commercial pricing and no vendor with a CFO or a brain is going to make all their commercial sales subservient to the FARs. Unless you're FLIR and most of your money comes from Federal, state and local governments anyway.

And we haven't even brought up funky accounting rules like LCM (lower of cost or market).

-Stooxie

I have significant influence over which customers we court where I work and I have steadfastly advised against pursuing government work.

Unless you're willing to go all in on the (significant) indirect support needed to properly and legally manage such contracts, you had best stay the fuck out because you're asking for trouble.

 

[CSTactical]

I know that Minox is doing that big sale - buy a rifle and get 50% off any scope. But what other companies are running these big sales? TT or ZCO?

No sales, but we do have demo models occasionally

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/open-box-tangent-theta-tt525p-gen-3-xr.6965204/

 

[Clearlight]

As a consumer not a manufacturer or retailer, I’ve noticed a big increase in the
range of brand names and models in the market over the past 5 years. Anyone
know how many different brand names LOW produce now?

Add in new models from existing players, and you have a massive orange of optics
from the bottom end of Chi.com to high end products.

 

[AIAW]

Wait until mid-2020... election year. Get your AR’s and reloading components purchased before the madhouse! Precision rifle gear, not so much next year I feel.

 

[Datsrboi]

I think all the big name are struggling to make sells due to saturation of product offering from newer company that are willing to charge less yet still profit. With how good stuff are now days even the cheap stuff is able to be in acceptable range of accuracy.

As a business that's bad but as a consumer at the end of the day I am not sponsored nor do I have a masters degree. Good enough is good enough and seeing big brands that I once can never afford now being within reach its obvious.

You can only reinvent the wheel so many times before its really just little unnecessary options they rack on. Like the Iphone.

 

[10ring'r]

They're looking for when murica is disarmed. Making their money while they can. Mac

 

[theLBC]

I have significant influence over which customers we court where I work and I have steadfastly advised against pursuing government work.

Unless you're willing to go all in on the (significant) indirect support needed to properly and legally manage such contracts, you had best stay the fuck out because you're asking for trouble.

yeah, i worked for a small shop way back that made things nobody else could (or did).
we made some parts for the gvt (why i went through security checks) and the inspection process for the parts probably costed 3x the cost of making the parts.

 

[JohnWess]

I believe it has to do with 2 things. The first one people have mentioned and that is that the market is so saturated that I feel a lot of companies are beginning to find it harder and harder to differentiate so they are starting to compete on price. But number two, and maybe more importantly is this. IF there is a big slowdown in the scope market, or the market as a whole, there is one thing that is king. That is CASH! Cash is king when buying slows for any company in any industry. So, this may be a dump for newer investments, or it may be a dump to gather cash as a hedge to uncertain market conditions over the next year. Good time to buy a scope though if you ask me.

 

[Datsrboi]

^^ yep you either adapt or you die. I fear its going to cause a lot of problem with future development as people will just rush product out but I hope it doesn't turn into that.

 

[Stooxie]

BTW, a Zeiss rep confirmed some of this. I asked him why Zeiss is leaving their best scopes for foreign markets. To paraphrase, he said, "because they aren't selling well over here." It's heartbreaking that the Victory HT line, which by many accounts is still the world standard for low light hunting in a compact and lightweight scope, is now only available in Europe.

All the V6 scopes are available with illuminated reticles in Europe but not here. The rep said because they had to choose between that or parallax adjustment for the knob and Americans seem to prefer parallax. So the V6 scopes available in the US are mostly for long range shooting (3-18x50 with parallax) while the hunting configurations (2-12x50 illuminated and 2.5-15x56 illuminated) stay in Europe.

It becomes a cycle. Over the past 10 years the entire gun industry in the US has been driven by long distance shooting in an effort to keep selling new calibers, new barrels, new scopes, etc. I'll never forget a headline that read, "224V, at last a caliber that remains supersonic out to 1,300 yards." Just what millions of deer hunters need.

Again, I'm not chopping down on long range shooters, just noting that the industry seems to be overestimating the size of that market segment.

-Stooxie

 

[Stooxie]

I believe it has to do with 2 things. The first one people have mentioned and that is that the market is so saturated that I feel a lot of companies are beginning to find it harder and harder to differentiate so they are starting to compete on price. But number two, and maybe more importantly is this. IF there is a big slowdown in the scope market, or the market as a whole, there is one thing that is king. That is CASH! Cash is king when buying slows for any company in any industry. So, this may be a dump for newer investments, or it may be a dump to gather cash as a hedge to uncertain market conditions over the next year. Good time to buy a scope though if you ask me.

There's a difference between cash and profit. Dumping product at discounted prices doesn't mean you'll end up with much profit.

Depending on how the channels work, inventory is carried by the distributors anyway, not the vendors. Thus, dumping product is really THEM trying to recover their cashflow. Otherwise they get left holding the bag on product that doesn't sell. Someone like Doug would have a better view into how exactly different vendors do it but my guess is this is largely what is driving S&B to go to a single distributor. They can negotiate financial terms with one entity that share risk and responsibilities more equitably.

But certainly the holiday season, SHOT show and the political SHIT show does make this a good time to buy!

-Stooxie

 

[JohnWess]

There's a difference between cash and profit. Dumping product at discounted prices doesn't mean you'll end up with much profit.

Depending on how the channels work, inventory is carried by the distributors anyway, not the vendors. Thus, dumping product is really THEM trying to recover their cashflow. Otherwise they get left holding the bag on product that doesn't sell. Someone like Doug would have a better view into how exactly different vendors do it but my guess is this is largely what is driving S&B to go to a single distributor. They can negotiate financial terms with one entity that share risk and responsibilities more equitably.

But certainly the holiday season, SHOT show and the political SHIT show does make this a good time to buy!

-Stooxie

Doug would have a better view on this, I agree. However, I was talking about cash mainly. Although, it’s hard to separate them completely. The manufacturers, distributors, and retailers all have inventory and it’s all tying up cash. If there is a potential near future event that could require cash (demand slow down, investment opportunity, etc.) they have to convert inventory back into cash. And to do this they may be willing to take a lower profit now to have the cash back in their pocket.

But, enough about supply chain haha. I think we were basically saying the same thing, just a little different wording.

 

[Fig]

Slang for the 2nd Civil War...

What? Ridiculous. Proof you shouldn't believe anything you read on the internet.

"The Big Boogaloo" is a new scope technology that will render all previous optical scopes useless. They're trying to get you to spend your money on useless and obsolete products.

If I were you I would not buy one of those old scopes that relies on light transmission to work.

 

[BigJimFish]

It does seem like there has been a lot of product dumping lately. This is not just in scopes though. Obama was a hell of a salesman for the gun industry and I think a lot of excess capacity was created and excess orders placed. I think that combined with being at the end of a business cycle with the generally decreasing retail sales across all consumer products that accompany those times is leading to a lot of stuff on shelves that needs to go. It is going to be a heck of a black friday in the gun world this year and that is saying something as last years was pretty great itself. I helped my uncle pick parts for his first precision rifle and couldn't belive the deals I found.

 

[acudaowner]

old stock sold as new or just a ditch effort to limit losses if trump looses election if the dims win the scopes are going to be almost worthless

 

[Shawn1492]

What? Ridiculous. Proof you shouldn't believe anything you read on the internet.

"The Big Boogaloo" is a new scope technology that will render all previous optical scopes useless. They're trying to get you to spend your money on useless and obsolete products.

If I were you I would not buy one of those old scopes that relies on light transmission to work.

actually that is the Big Igloo a new giant ice cooler from RTIC

 

[Middle Man]

I'll point out that 2019 has been witness to significant consolidation in the firearms industry (especially among wholesale distributors). One of the largest middle men in the business, liquidated and filed bankruptcy in May 2019 (United Sporting). Many, many millions of dollars of optics, ammo, firearms, and accessories were liquidated in the run up to their final days. As many as four other smaller wholesaler distributors have either filed bankruptcy, closed, quit, or will be out by the end of 2019. Additionally, Dicks has/is exiting the market, Gander has completely exited, and Wal-Mart quit the match (so to speak) on a majority of the ammunition assortment they sold. Wal-Mart, by many estimations, commanded 20% of the country's commercial ammo sales. Manufacturers are scrambling to find some way to soften the crash landing with what could be as much as a third of their customer base gone by year's end.

Every other entity along the supply chain (from manufactures to retailers) have spent much of 2019 cutting inventories. The situation is very much like generals fighting the last war...

 

[Paintsncows]

Probably just comes down to you can either sell one for lots of money or lots for less money.

With the price of the upper end scopes, how many realistically do you think they can move a month per manufacturer?

Yes, the rifle companies are selling firearms but how many are rifles are worthy of have a $2k scope put on top of sold per month? Ask yourself, how many guys do you know that are buying new rifles that require new scopes? Yes there will be some that upgrade/replace but the reality is there isn't a huge market. And of those that are buying new rifle/scope combinations, is there enough sales to keep a mulit-million dollar company with hundreds of employees fed?

Also, you are seeing manufacturers that basically produced items that really have very little proportionate value at resell vs initial sales.

The end result is that there will be a glut of high dollar scopes cut in prices. And anyone selling one that is used is going to take a bath on value.

 

[deersniper]

It's definitely a buyers market for scopes, guns, ammunition, and most accessories. It would've been much better for the gun community if we'd have had a steady market for the last eleven years, instead of the crazy ups and downs, but we can't change history.

How do you figure?
You will have volatility in any free market. It’s good for the consumer. Good for the company’s that can produce in the good times and learn to cut fat in the bad times.